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Author Topic: Guilds is here!  (Read 17902 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2013, 02:38:56 pm »
0

What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.

"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.

Exactly, not every junking card has to be the best card in Dominion.
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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2013, 02:49:21 pm »
+3

What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.

"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.

Exactly, not every junking card has to be the best card in Dominion.
...because the best card in all of Dominion is Bureaucrat, which is not a junking card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2013, 02:56:43 pm »
+1

So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).

I've been thinking about this too. Buying 3 Coppers can guarantee you at least one Province instead of a Duchy, which is a better exchange rate than Goons's 1VP/Copper (although this comparison is more than a little dubious). It also accelerates the endgame, making the Coppers hurt less. I think it's going to be a common thing you do, although obviously it's not why you buy the Merchant Guild, if that needed to be said.

How's that? Goons gives you 3VP for 3 copper right away. MG gives you 3 coin tokens. If you later are able to use those tokens to buy Province instead of Duchy with a $5 hand, you get 3vp more than you would have... But the Goons player could have used that hand to just buy the Duchy.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2013, 03:31:44 pm »
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So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).

I've been thinking about this too. Buying 3 Coppers can guarantee you at least one Province instead of a Duchy, which is a better exchange rate than Goons's 1VP/Copper (although this comparison is more than a little dubious). It also accelerates the endgame, making the Coppers hurt less. I think it's going to be a common thing you do, although obviously it's not why you buy the Merchant Guild, if that needed to be said.

How's that? Goons gives you 3VP for 3 copper right away. MG gives you 3 coin tokens. If you later are able to use those tokens to buy Province instead of Duchy with a $5 hand, you get 3vp more than you would have... But the Goons player could have used that hand to just buy the Duchy.
Right, so on a bad day they're equal, except the endgame acceleration aspect if that's a factor. On a good day, Province instead of Duchy is a 6 or 9 point swing rather than a 3 point swing (!). (Of course if your opponent is actually playing Goons, they probably don't care about being denied Provinces, but I'm not actually concerned with the Goons matchup.) On another good day, you might split your 3 coins up over two turns to get two additional Provinces instead of just one; the opportunity cost here is probably trickier to measure but I'm sure it's an improvement sometimes.

You could of course argue that the PPR might make Duchies preferable to Provinces which gets in the way of this plan. This could be an issue but I have to imagine the PPR is generally on your side here. The Copper doesn't hurt as much when you want to buy Duchies, and the flexibility of Coin tokens is perfect for tactical buys.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 03:36:26 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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Squidd

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2013, 03:58:38 pm »
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Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
No, you don't gain a curse.

But you did gain a Gold. It doesn't say "each player who gained a curse draws a card" but "each player who did" who did what?
That really doesn't seem like a very likely interpretation. You're saying the implicit part is "gained a curse or a gold" or "something". But the previous sentence just says "each other player gains a curses." It's one specific action.

Like if I said "Go to the bank and deposit this check. Then go to the store and buy milk. While you're there be sure to use your discount card." You're not going to ask what I mean by "there". It's the grocery store. You're already done with the bank.

I'm not sure I would actually say it that way in real life, but Dominion has some restrictions on how things can be stated because they have to be formatted as a linear sequence of instructions that fits on half of a playing card.

I kind of wish Soothsayer had been typeset differently, since there's room to separate the effects. Something like
Quote
Gain a Gold.

Each other player gains a Curse.
Each player who did draws a card.
...might be harder for people to misinterpret.
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sudgy

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2013, 04:01:18 pm »
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So maybe these two threads should just be merged?

Or one locked?  (probably this one as it isn't as big)
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

popsofctown

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2013, 05:22:36 pm »
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DUDES.

So wonky. 

Donald used the -name- of the winning curser from the mini-set design contest.  But then the mechanics were very similar to the effects of Sorry Witch, a very close runner up (that really should have won instead truth be told.  I like it better than most of Donald's cursers)
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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2013, 05:40:05 pm »
+5

I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.
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ConMan

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2013, 08:01:02 pm »
0

What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.

"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.

Exactly, not every junking card has to be the best card in Dominion.
...because the best card in all of Dominion is Bureaucrat, which is not a junking card.
And Bureaucrat + Tax Collector? Totally going to be a thing. (Wait, isn't this the ridiculously bold predictions thread?)
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SirPeebles

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2013, 08:44:36 pm »
0

I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.

Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that mirror synergy before.  Your opponent will know a treasure in your hand the turn after you use Taxman.  That will really change up how it plays.  Previously, I figured I'd nearly always go with Copper.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2013, 08:54:10 pm »
+2

I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.

Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that mirror synergy before.  Your opponent will know a treasure in your hand the turn after you use Taxman.  That will really change up how it plays.  Previously, I figured I'd nearly always go with Copper.

This is a new solution to the puzzle: "Reasons to reveal Trader when gaining Silver".

If it isn't obvious: when gaining with Taxman, to prevent topdecking and deny knowledge to your opponent.
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RD

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2013, 11:54:23 pm »
0

I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.

Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that mirror synergy before.  Your opponent will know a treasure in your hand the turn after you use Taxman.  That will really change up how it plays.  Previously, I figured I'd nearly always go with Copper.

I think are a couple other factors in favor of going Silver->Gold:

Your opponent is rarely going to want to Tax Gold into Gold (although occasionally it might be good to shuffle a Gold over to the next hand). Accordingly, your Gold is relatively safe from getting attacked, except of course in Platinum games. But if you give yourself a deck full of Silver, they'll surely stop attacking your Coppers and start Taxing Silver->Gold, and then you might be in for a rough time.

Also, Taxman might actually go well with other mild trashers, like say Lookout. This might seem counterintuitive but Taxman is an even slower card than Mine: it's not as though you're going to upgrade all of your starting Coppers into Golds with one Taxman, are you? Why not drop a few? It'll help you avoid your opponent's Taxmen, and if you really need, you can always pick up a couple Silvers when you start running out of Taxman targets.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:59:47 pm by RD »
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Davio

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2013, 05:29:03 am »
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If you play Taxman and always choose Silver and it hits half as much as when you'd choose Copper, you've caused the same amount of total $ loss as when you'd pick a Copper which always hits.

In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2013, 05:32:57 am »
+1

I guess it mostly depends on how much buying power you want this turn.
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ftl

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2013, 06:03:08 am »
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You cost yourself as much buying power as you cost your opponent.
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Awaclus

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2013, 06:21:21 am »
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If you play Taxman and always choose Silver and it hits half as much as when you'd choose Copper, you've caused the same amount of total $ loss as when you'd pick a Copper which always hits.

In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
I don't think you should ever choose Gold unless it's a Colony game, because that way you're not improving your own cards.
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Davio

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2013, 06:41:33 am »
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There's an edge case for it.

One is to "Haven" a Gold over, another is that you know there's a Gold in your opp's hand and the loss to him is bigger than it is for you to postpone your Gold one turn.
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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2013, 06:43:43 am »
+1

You don't haven it over, you courtyard it over, which is quite a bit weaker.
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Awaclus

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2013, 07:49:02 am »
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There's an edge case for it.

One is to "Haven" a Gold over, another is that you know there's a Gold in your opp's hand and the loss to him is bigger than it is for you to postpone your Gold one turn.
But trashing a Silver is equally good for the "Havening" except it improves your deck.
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crj

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2013, 09:04:35 am »
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In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
However, Guilds has stirred things up more than that because we also have coin tokens now. If you tax someone's copper, that could turn into "on your next turn, discard a coin token". Upsetting for them, but it makes it hard to prevent them buying the card they want.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2013, 09:06:11 am »
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You could Taxman the Gold into a Bank.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2013, 09:54:11 am »
0

If you play Taxman and always choose Silver and it hits half as much as when you'd choose Copper, you've caused the same amount of total $ loss as when you'd pick a Copper which always hits.

In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.

Okay, so if we open Taxman/Silver then on T3 I have a 5/12 chance of successfully hitting your Silver and a 12/12 chance of hitting Copper. Already we are almost at the 50% cutoff point described in your first paragraph. On T4 I've been counting cards and my chances are 5/7,although maybe I'm swayed by your second paragraph and still choose Copper.

There's an edge case for it.

One is to "Haven" a Gold over, another is that you know there's a Gold in your opp's hand and the loss to him is bigger than it is for you to postpone your Gold one turn.
But trashing a Silver is equally good for the "Havening" except it improves your deck.

Yeah but you need Silver in hand to do that. Sometimes you won't have it, although this might be a case for why you shouldn't upgrade it prematurely.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 10:02:55 am by WheresMyElephant »
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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2013, 07:00:28 pm »
+2

PDF rules now online at RGG.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2013, 07:12:57 pm »
+5

 I like that the rules use feminine pronouns to refer to a generic player!  :D
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Re: Guilds is here!
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2013, 07:13:50 pm »
0

Agreed!
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