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[Voltaire]

Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.

Do you mean "No kill"?

[mail-mi]

1.2. Vote Count

"Split up? asked Miss Scarlet "I don't know if we should do that."

"Why not?" asked Mrs. White.

"I agree, this mansion is obviously dangerous. Rrenaud is notorious wacko. Who knows what horrors may be hidden in this house," said Mr. Boddy. "I suggest we just wait patiently for him to come back. I am afraid someone may get hurt."

"This is war Mr. Boddy!" shouted Col. Mustard. "Casualties are inevitable. You can not make an omelet without breaking eggs, every cook will tell you that."

"It's true," said The Cook. "You can't. But why is this war?" she asked.

"War. Huh! What is it good for" everyone started to sing together.



UmbarageOfSnow (1): Jimmmmmmm
Not voting: (12) Voltaire, chairs, UmbarageOfSnow, Twistedarcher, Eevee, Robz, mcmcsalot, liopoil, shraeye, raerae, ashersky, nkirbit

Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Cons:  The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1.  The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them.  Or maybe they would.  But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.)  The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider.  So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.

If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights.  Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.  This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders.  But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.

This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on.  Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally.  But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.

That is an extremely good point, particularly the underlined part.  Maybe that's how those other games failed?

So how can we take away the ability of Mafia to make a big chart and narrow down the Hider by process of elimination?  We could make it a lot harder by having each person list TWO people they would hide behind, so if they die, we narrow it down to one of two?  Any other ideas?

[nkirbit]

Oh um RVS, that's right.

Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.

Oh shit!  I've broken my meta as a newb.  Let's try this again.

GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!!  BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!

(Was that mean?)

This made me laugh!

[nkirbit]

Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.

Do you mean "No kill"?

Yeah.

[nkirbit]

Cons:  The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1.  The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them.  Or maybe they would.  But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.)  The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider.  So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.

If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights.  Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.  This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders.  But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.

This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on.  Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally.  But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.

That is an extremely good point, particularly the underlined part.  Maybe that's how those other games failed?

So how can we take away the ability of Mafia to make a big chart and narrow down the Hider by process of elimination?  We could make it a lot harder by having each person list TWO people they would hide behind, so if they die, we narrow it down to one of two?  Any other ideas?

If you're listing two players, the whole plan doesn't work.  It works so if the hider turns up dead (from hiding behind mafia), you automatically get scum (unless they hid behind the vig).  If we want to do this plan, that's just something we're going to have to stomach.  There's no way around it with the plan still working, as far as I can tell.

[Voltaire]

Cons:  The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1.  The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them.  Or maybe they would.  But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.)  The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider.  So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.

If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights.  Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.  This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders.  But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.

This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on.  Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally.  But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.

That is an extremely good point, particularly the underlined part.  Maybe that's how those other games failed?

So how can we take away the ability of Mafia to make a big chart and narrow down the Hider by process of elimination?  We could make it a lot harder by having each person list TWO people they would hide behind, so if they die, we narrow it down to one of two?  Any other ideas?

If you're listing two players, the whole plan doesn't work.  It works so if the hider turns up dead (from hiding behind mafia), you automatically get scum (unless they hid behind the vig).  If we want to do this plan, that's just something we're going to have to stomach.  There's no way around it with the plan still working, as far as I can tell.

I think we (and the hider most of all) need to accept the fact that the hider is going to die, and probably sooner rather than later, no matter what we do. So let's wring every last bit of info from 'em while they're still around. (and I have no idea how to do that)

[Eevee]

We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.

This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.

So, let's not do that.

Yeah, that was a town vig shooting the hider though, so it's actually evidence for the contrary - people claiming who they'd hide behind didn't make it obvious who the hider is (for scum or sadly for town vig either).

I do agree that these plans for the hider won't work unless everyone agrees to them.

[Twistedarcher]

But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all.  It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.

In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.

There are 3 mafia though, right?  So yeah, 1-for-1 is great, but the hider will get a 1-for-1 trade sooner or later no matter what, assuming they hide behind someone every night.  Isn't it much much better to get a 1-for-1 trade and also learn that 1 or 2 other people are confirmed town?

Of course, of course. But we'll also have the doctor/pyscho maybe getting a dirty read on the vig, and the tracker maybe picking up on the hider/detective-psycho. Hence my comment that this setup seems to be designed for maximum suspicion.

Also I'm going to call that role the psycho-detective until we know which it is (if ever). 

Waiting for raerae to yell at us for theory talk...

And what good has it ever done me?  Oh well, LOUD NOISES THEORY IS BAD LOUD NOISES!!

Seriously though, I think the hider should decide on their own who to hide behind and I won't be giving a list of people I would hide behind were I the hider.  The last time I saw town give a similar list, they got steam rolled by the scumteam (Ash, Yuma, Eevee...) because they didn't  pay attention or refer back to their lists.

Well, I would hope that we have enough good players willing to look back so that this won't be a problem in this game.

The problem I see is if the hider hides behind scum, he dies, we don't know who he hid behind, we're completely in the dark, and we've lost a town PR with no benefit.

[Voltaire]

I do agree that these plans for the hider won't work unless everyone agrees to them.

So can we already not use them because raerae has stated intent not to participate?

I for one think a list (and choice) from everyone is probably a good idea, based on what everyone has said so far, and I'd go for it.

[chairs]

Oh um RVS, that's right.

Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.

Oh shit!  I've broken my meta as a newb.  Let's try this again.

GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!!  BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!

(Was that mean?)

...xeiron?

[Twistedarcher]

Hi guys!

On the hider thing:

Pros:  If the hider dies because he hides behind mafia, a lot of the time in a normal situation, we wouldn't know which person the hider hid behind.  Now we know.

Cons:  The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1.  The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them.  Or maybe they would.  But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.)  The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider.  So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.

If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights.  Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.  This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders.  But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.

This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on.  Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally.  But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.

Well, the we can declare targets for N1, but not for N2. So even if scum have the hider narrowed down to, say, 6 of 8 townies alive, if we're not announcing targets N2, does that really help scum all that much?

[Twistedarcher]

Oh um RVS, that's right.

Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.

Oh shit!  I've broken my meta as a newb.  Let's try this again.

GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!!  BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!

(Was that mean?)

Please don't reference ongoing games

Oh, and be nice

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem.  We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?

We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name!  This is revealed upon death.  If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!

[Voltaire]

I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem.  We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?

We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name!  This is revealed upon death.  If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!

*brainsplosion*

If you can explain it to me like a child, it sounds like it could work.

[Voltaire]

I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem.  We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?

We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name!  This is revealed upon death.  If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!

*brainsplosion*

If you can explain it to me like a child, it sounds like it could work.

Though make sure it doesn't run afoul of this rule:

1. Bold, brown text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Please don't reference ongoing games
Oh, and be nice

Sorry 

[Twistedarcher]

I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem.  We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?

We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name!  This is revealed upon death.  If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!

Hmm. The problem is, all the flavor-names are known. If they were unknown, this might work much better. If you're going to do something like "Hide behind the person corresponding to the first letter of your flavor name, where A=1" or whatever, scum can sit down and count who's getting targeted the most times by a potential hider, then use those odds.

I think I'd prefer random. But rather than just saying "Let's go up the list, or down the list!", which coulddddd possibly be manipulated by scum, we could use the timestamp on a post to set a number for how many people we're skipping, or something similar. Say the post ends with 2, we'd start with the first person. They'd skip 2 people, hide behind the 4th, the 4th would hide behind the 7th, and so on, removing people from the list once they've been chosen. This makes it completely random, and even completely resistant to scum choosing a preferable "random" method.

[Voltaire]

We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name!  This is revealed upon death.  If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!

Is something like this what you mean?

The hider should hide behind the person below them in the flavor-name list. Mustard hides behind Plum, etc.

1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock

Would that even work?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Though make sure it doesn't run afoul of this rule:

1. Bold, brown text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.

Not actual cryptography in any way, just an idea from there (I like math.)

We each have a unique flavor name.  The list of possibilities is known, so this isn't entirely proof against analysis, but it would be very tough.  We come up with some system based on our flavor names as the person whom the Hider should hide behind.  Then, when the hider dies and we learn their flavor name, we can back calculate who it would be.  It shouldn't be game breaking because scum could also do the same calculation on all the flavor names they don't have and could still find where the best odds are the same way as before, but it should be resistant to the same type of analysis you get from checking off who changed their vote, because they could only learn that, say, the Hider is not Mr. Green or whatever, which is much less useful to them.

Easy example: The flavor names are alphabetized in the first post.  We could all agree that the Hider should look at what number they are in the first post, and pick that number on the /in list to investigate, incrementing by one each night.  Skip yourself.

[Twistedarcher]

We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name!  This is revealed upon death.  If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!

Is something like this what you mean?

The hider should hide behind the person below them in the flavor-name list. Mustard hides behind Plum, etc.

1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock

Would that even work?

But we don't know each others flavor

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Correction: they aren't alphabetized but that wouldn't matter.

1. Mr. Green
2. Col. Mustard
3. Prof. Plum
4. The Cook
5. Yvette the Maid
6. Wadsworth the Butler
7. Miss Scarlet
8. Mrs. White
9. Mrs. Peacock
10. Mr. Boddy
11. The Cop
12. The Mechanic
13. The Singing Telegram Girl

Player Roster
1. Robz
2. raerae
3. liopoil
4. twistedarcher
5. shraeye
6. Eevee
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm
10. nkirbit
11. chairs
12. mcmcsalot
13. ashersky

So you can match up your number to the one to investigate and increment each round, skipping yourself.  Back calculable, distributes evenly, only problem is over several nights scum can start deducing where they would have been based on flavor names and names of revealed people to narrow it down, but I think this extends that horizon quite a bit.

[nkirbit]

Umbrage of snow's idea matching up the player list and the flavor list seems like it would work to me.   I think the hider should follow this process.

[Twistedarcher]

Oooh. So if I'm the hider, I'd hide behind Eevee is I was Mr. Green (skipping one player, Shraeye), I'd hide behind Voltaire if I was Col. MUstard, and so on?

I do like this plan.

[nkirbit]

I don't think that's what he's suggesting, and is more complicated than it needs to be.

If I'm the hider, and I'm Wadsworth the Butler (#6), I would hide behind Eevee (#6) tonight, Voltaire (#7) tomorrow, etc. etc.

If I were instead Mr. Boddy (#10), I would skip myself (#10), and hide behind chairs (#11) tonight, mcmc (#12) tomorrow.

This is much more simple and much less easy to get confused than TA's idea.