I'm not so sure that Haven would work like Tactician in that it only stays in play if it has an unresolved effect. I think it's probably more like Outpost. Tactician specifically says "if you discarded", so if you didn't discard, you just don't do the next part of the sentence, so no effect is set up. Haven on the other hand, tells you, no matter what, to do something next turn. The problem is of course that it tells you to put the set-aside card into your hand, and that card might not exist, even at the time you set up this effect. So the question is whether you fail to set up the effect because the card doesn't exist, or whether you set it up and then only see that it doesn't exist at the time you resolve it. I'm guessing the latter, but don't know for sure.
Effects are immediate though. Haven's full effect is:
+1 card, +1 action, (select a card from your hand and set it aside face down), at the start of next turn, put
it into your hand
If there is no IT (no card in your hand to choose from), then that specific haven effect (the one that makes it a duration) has failed, and thus throne room is not doubling its effect.
Consider playing a haven on its own. If as you say it's setting up an effect next turn no matter what, then a haven played with no cards in hand (without any modifier) would
NOT be discarded during this turn's clean-up.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/HavenIf you have no card in your hand to set aside when you play Haven, you set aside nothing, and clean up Haven at the end of that turn; it does not stay out.
If haven can fail by itself, then it surely can fail on the second throne roomed play, thus leaving haven in play while its modifier throne room is discarded.
See my example earlier in this thread with Masochist, which is Donald's own example. Nobody has addressed this.
I wasn't quite sure how to address this, and it seemed like you were agreeing with me insofar as the logic is concerned. Where you lost me is when you were talking about what was
supposed to be happening, because I haven't seen any rules/rulings starting why that would be.
But as I said I think it's supposed to work like this: If Masochist is played as per above, it's correct as described. But if no Masochist is played, both Outposts get discarded in the clean-up of your first (and only) extra turn.
If the hypothetical existence of the masochist card would cause the remaining outpost's extra turn to be really evaluated after the masochist turn (rather than
looking ahead when the first outpost extra turn is checked and then played, since it wouldn't know if you're planning on playing a masochist or not...), then there's no reason that the whole situation should be different if we take the hypothetical card out of the equation.
Edit: that paragraph seems jumbled, let me clarify:
Donald gives an example of a "ridiculous" card that goes "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, before any other extra turns for other players."
Let's say this card (Masochist) exists, it would play out like below:
Normal Turn:
- Play King's Court, choosing Outpost
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: draw only three cards during this turn's clean-up, take an extra turn after this one
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (2 extra turns total due to accumulation)
-- Play Outpost, setting up later ability: ..., take an extra turn after this one (3 extra turns total due to accumulation)
- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (draw only three cards, 3 extra turns) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw only three cards, satisfying one of Outpost's effects
Attempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds, satisfying one of Outpost's effects (1 extra turn consumed, 2 extra turns remain)
Extra Turn:
- Play Masochist, setting up later ability: the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, before any other extra turns for other players- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (2 extra turns) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw five cards
Player to the left's extra turn:
- some stuff that has no bearing on the extra turn situation happens hereAttempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds (the last turn was the left player's, this is our first turn in a new sequence), satisfying one of Outpost's effects (1 extra turn consumed, 1 extra turn remains)
Extra Turn:
- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost still has effects that haven't been resolved (1 extra turn) so it and its modifier card (King's Court) stay in play
-- Draw five cards
Attempt to take extra turn:
- succeeds (this will be the second unbroken extra turn in the chain), satisfying one of Outpost's effects (1 extra turn consumed, no extra turn remains, Outpost and its modifier card of King's Court are now flagged for discarding during this upcoming turn's clean-up phase)
Extra Turn:
- During clean-up phase:
-- Discard cards
--- Outpost and its modifier card of King's Court are now discarded since there are no longer any effects tied to this card remaining
-- Draw five cards
(play continues as normal)
If we were to remove the hypothetical card and thus the bolded Masochist bits, then everything else about the situation should remain the same (see the original post of this thread for how that would play out).
I don't think Outpost can have it both ways, even if the hypothetical card will never exist. Either:
a) when one outpost extra turn is being checked and applied, the rest of them are allowed to be nullified at this precise moment in time (thus masochist as worded above would
never be able to break up two+ queued outpost extra turns)
b) the outpost extra turns are only ever nullified when they're attempted to be taken (thus masochist could actually work as it's been laid out above)
I find the strongest support for b) based on Donald's quote involving the hypothetical masochist card (here on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5397175#5397175):
Outpost doesn't "know" it's not giving you an extra turn until the moment it fails to give it to you - to tell that we have to know who took the most recent turn, and we don't until that moment. So you have to leave the Throne Room out. At the point at which the Throned Outpost would give you that 2nd extra turn, it fails to, but not before then.