Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Stealth Tomato]

I like that this is like Golem without the empty-deck problem or the two-terminals problem (Golem into an empty deck costs an action; a deck of all cantrips except two terminals will occasionally Golem into both terminals and stall) but with the undesirable-actions problem retained. It looks fun. It looks like a lot of fun.

The only thing disappointing is that while Heralds can chain, they can't tree. It would be a lot more fun if instead of drawing the first card, it revealed it. On a Herald, play it. On any other card, put it into hand.

[eHalcyon]

I like that this is like Golem without the empty-deck problem or the two-terminals problem (Golem into an empty deck costs an action; a deck of all cantrips except two terminals will occasionally Golem into both terminals and stall) but with the undesirable-actions problem retained. It looks fun. It looks like a lot of fun.

The only thing disappointing is that while Heralds can chain, they can't tree. It would be a lot more fun if instead of drawing the first card, it revealed it. On a Herald, play it. On any other card, put it into hand.

Sure it can?  If the second card is a cantrip (such as Herald itself), you get an extra action out of it.

[Warfreak2]

I think the point is that it can't *force* you to play more than one non-Herald action card from your deck. Think like if Golem could play Golems.

[GeronimoRex]

Mid/late game overpay potential seems potentially ridiculous in some boards. I look forward to the secret histories to learn what early versions of this card looked like and the effects of early playtesting.

More than almost any other card I can think of, this card epitomizes the Dominion principle that "having one good turn and one bad turn is usually better than having two mediocre turns."

(Massively) Overpaying for this card -- especially right before a reshuffle -- could guarantee you the best turn you'll have all game. Overpaying for this card seems like a surefire way of guaranteeing at least every other hand is a great hand.

[shMerker]

Provided that your "not great" hands give you 6-8 coins.

[LastFootnote]

Mid/late game overpay potential seems potentially ridiculous in some boards. I look forward to the secret histories to learn what early versions of this card looked like and the effects of early playtesting.

More than almost any other card I can think of, this card epitomizes the Dominion principle that "having one good turn and one bad turn is usually better than having two mediocre turns."

(Massively) Overpaying for this card -- especially right before a reshuffle -- could guarantee you the best turn you'll have all game. Overpaying for this card seems like a surefire way of guaranteeing at least every other hand is a great hand.

Sure, although it's hard to overpay much with a lousy hand.

[WanderingWinder]

. And as the key village to draw your whole dick, it's probably not so hot, either.

Freudian slip?

How about I just hit the wrong key? I mean, I'm on a qwerty here.

We saw that you hit the wrong key. The question is why? ;P

E kwv'y dvwo.

[Titandrake]

Hm. It seems pretty strong at first glance. It probably plays similarly to Scrying Pool, in that you need to buy primarily Actions to make it good. However, it probably isn't as binary as Scrying Pool, and should fit into a lot of engines pretty easily. It's also somewhat like Scheme, except Scheme makes an engine more consistent, whereas Herald looks like it makes engines possible. It should trigger fairly often in the right deck, and although I'm hesitant to say that it could be used as the main +Actions in an engine, I think it's doable.

As for the on-buy effect, I think it'll actually be quite good. You're primarily going to buy Herald in an engine, and ensuring a setup for next turn is pretty strong. The issue is that topdecking even 2 cards costs $6, which is pretty expensive. It might even work best as an IGG-like play: if you have 2 Cursers in your discard, you can spend $5 each turn to topdeck one of them each turn.

[AJD]

But just consider, if this hits woodcutter, that is equivalent, fully equivalent, to grand market. On a woodcutter!

Other things are fully equivalent to Grand Market, though, and easier to line up (because they can both be in your hand, rather than one of them having to be in a specific place like the second card on your deck). Festival/Moat. Market/Peddler.

[Warfreak2]

Market Square/Conspirator is the cheapest Grand Market.

[sandstorm]

I think one of the most common uses for Herald will be in the mid/late game when you have 5 to 7 coins and would normally buy a Duchy.  The overbuy will allow you to set up a province turn next (similar to Mandarin) or even a province/duchy or province/province turn.

[timchen]

Weird-- I thought the overpaying part is not that different from the on-gain part of inn. Sure with Inn you cannot bring up platinum, but you cannot usually megaturn with platinum anyway...

Overall I see this expansion shaping up pretty good! I like it a lot more than dark ages. (Ok, time to sneak in my dark ages complaint...)
I had a feeling that random games becomes less fun with DA. The on-trash part may not work, and some cards are more complicated than fun. I can hardly remember what the on-trash effects are for Hunting grounds and Catacombs, and lots of times I just buy them for the draw anyway. The shelters attract your eyes so much yet two of them plays really not that much different from estate. Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it. Urchin and Mercenary are such complicated concept but I have yet to see a kingdom where they become key. Grave robber and rats are niche. Pillage and the whole spoils concept makes non-engine decks more swingy than ever. And they are not so hot in engines anyway. The ruins, while different, does not really create a different game from curses. This reminds me Stef's comment on how fairgrounds changes the game just as another pile of Province. Sadly another pile of curses simply does not do that much.

[Warfreak2]

Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it.

Mountebank, or any other strong attack, makes Procession very viable, even if there's no $6 Action card to upgrade it into. It's important to play Mountebank early and often, and getting it in twice in one turn is huge. OK, you trash your Mountebank, but two Mountebank plays produce $4 in virtual money, so you just buy another one.

Urchin and Mercenary are such complicated concept but I have yet to see a kingdom where they become key.

That is strange, because typically when Urchin is on the board, both me and my opponent rush to get Mercenary first. Trashing two cards is nice, +2 Cards +$2 is great, and it's a Militia too, and you didn't have to spend more than $3 for it. I'd argue that it's too overpowered, and too swingy - the trashing helps you play it more often, and the discard attack especially hurts when your opponent is trying to play their own Mercenary, as they have to keep Mercenary and either two junk cards to trash, or some cantrip/village and gamble on it drawing something they want to trash. Getting that first Mercenary can have such a big impact.

The ruins, while different, does not really create a different game from curses.

They absolutely do; the obvious differences are that Curses are worth negative VP while Ruins are easier to ignore, and if you find yourself with a spare action (especially in a Fishing Village or City deck), you can't play a Curse for some marginal benefit. There's also boards with both Ruins and Curses being given, and having 20 junk cards as ammunition does play a lot differently to having 10.

But there are so many situational differences, a large proportion of boards should see some difference. All the Cornucopia cards that care about variety get a boost, because there are five differently named Ruins. Quite a few counters to Curses - Farming Village, Wandering Minstrel, Golem, and Vagrant, for example - simply don't work at all against Ruins; but also, Curses really hurt Scrying Pool while Ruins hardly matter. If you play Ironmonger you'd rather have a Ruins, but if your opponent plays Tribute you'd rather have a Curse. Cultist vs Vineyard is a recipe for disaster, and in a Gardens slog, you might even want to buy an Abandoned Market, just to help increase your deck size with some extra Coppers.

No lie, I lost a game once against a Menagerie/Ruins engine.

[OptimumIllusion]

The overpaying effect aside, I think the main point of this card is being able to play terminals like cantrips. Especially if the Attack is drawing more cards, and presumably more Heralds, into your hand. The overpaying pumps it up.

[eHalcyon]

Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it.

Mountebank, or any other strong attack, makes Procession very viable, even if there's no $6 Action card to upgrade it into. It's important to play Mountebank early and often, and getting it in twice in one turn is huge. OK, you trash your Mountebank, but two Mountebank plays produce $4 in virtual money, so you just buy another one.

...

No lie, I lost a game once against a Menagerie/Ruins engine.

I disagree.  If there isn't a good $6 (read: Border Village), or something else to hit (read: Fortress), Procession is a bad idea.  You are spending $4 on Proc when you could be buying something else.  Then you are counting on it to collide with your Mountebank, when it's a dead card otherwise... and that'll be often, since you'll be getting hit by Mountebank as well.  And then you're spending another $5 to re-buy a Mountebank?  The opportunity cost of two buys for $4 and $5 is significant, and that's in the SUCCESS scenario.  You might not get Proc with your MB at all.

In the latter game, that loss is more due to Fairgrounds, I think.   Buying Ruins is not generally a path to success, Menagerie or not.

[KingZog3]

Weird-- I thought the overpaying part is not that different from the on-gain part of inn. Sure with Inn you cannot bring up platinum, but you cannot usually megaturn with platinum anyway...

Overall I see this expansion shaping up pretty good! I like it a lot more than dark ages. (Ok, time to sneak in my dark ages complaint...)
I had a feeling that random games becomes less fun with DA. The on-trash part may not work, and some cards are more complicated than fun. I can hardly remember what the on-trash effects are for Hunting grounds and Catacombs, and lots of times I just buy them for the draw anyway. The shelters attract your eyes so much yet two of them plays really not that much different from estate. Procession is a very interesting concept but with random it's not easy to find a good kingdom for it. Urchin and Mercenary are such complicated concept but I have yet to see a kingdom where they become key. Grave robber and rats are niche. Pillage and the whole spoils concept makes non-engine decks more swingy than ever. And they are not so hot in engines anyway. The ruins, while different, does not really create a different game from curses. This reminds me Stef's comment on how fairgrounds changes the game just as another pile of Province. Sadly another pile of curses simply does not do that much.

It was said just before, but Mercenary is often so good at trashing it leaves one player unable to catch up.
Madman is great for mega turns and especially since you probably don't want the
Urchin in your deck at some point anyway. The on-trash benefits activate often enough that they play an important role in many games.
Spoils have their own role in many decks and are unique. They don't make games swingy. There is nothing swingy about Bandit Camp or Marauder. Pillage a little, I will agree, but not the others.
Ruins are very different because they are Actions, and can mess with any card that refers to Actions (Which I'll mention is quite a lot of cards.)
Shelters play a HUGE part in how you open. No longer can you open Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Baron, Ambassador etc. They also make many alt VP games much easier.
Rats is useful sometimes, but it is true it does make little difference in many games. Then again, I've seen it be the star of the board. Graverobber is really good and I use it a lot for turning $5 cards into Provinces, then gaining them again to turn them into more Provinces.

Out of all those complaints, you didn't even mention Kinghts!! They are the swingiest part of Dark Ages, with a huge luck factor on who gets what Knight, or even if Sir Martin is available in the first turn for a 4/3 start.
The "trashing" theme is conveyed really well since over half the cards ether trash, have on-trash benefits, are activated by trashing or deal with the trash in some way. DA is by far one of the best expansions. Although I'll guess you think Prosperity is the best... the expansion that encourages simple strategies around simple treasure cards.

[RD]

Definitely the least guildy card we've seen yet. Unless the demand for heraldry is really sufficient to support a full guild of them?

[LastFootnote]

Definitely the least guildy card we've seen yet. Unless the demand for heraldry is really sufficient to support a full guild of them?

I think the expansion is called Guilds because it sounds better than Dominion: Jobs.

[GendoIkari]

I've downgraded my assessment slightly, because I realize that even if it hits every time, it's not as good as +2 cards +2 actions. With +2 cards +2 actions, you are free to spend those actions on any action cards you have in your hand. With Herald, one of your 2 actions is forced to be used on whatever action card happened to be revealed. If that card is non-terminal, then I suppose it doesn't really matter. But if it was terminal, +2 actions would let you play 2 other terminals from your hand, which perhaps you'd rather play that the one that was on top of your deck. Then again, this only matters if you have more terminals than you can play.

[markusin]

So Inn has some real competition now. On the one hand, Inn can add tons of great actions to your deck with just a 5$ purchase. On the other hand, you know exactly what you're getting next turn when you overpay for a Herald and Herald itself doesn't decrease your handsize on-play like Inn does. I predict that I'm going to try to ignore this card at first and lose a bunch of games because of it. Like Ironmonger, this card really takes a hit from junkers. I really want to try to combo it with apothecary though.

On the subject of Dark Ages, my only complaint about that expansion is that some of the cards  really depend on the presence of other cards in order to be good. Okay, maybe just Rats. Also, would anyone else have nightmares if you walked into a storeroom being raided by rats in real life? But Dark Ages is the combo expansion. Guilds is just like, the expansion where you take everything you learned about Dominion and apply it in a different context. I for one really like the coin token concept, just because I think being able to carry over coins across turns is a powerful ability, and so far Baker is my favourite of the bunch.

[timchen]

It was said just before, but Mercenary is often so good at trashing it leaves one player unable to catch up.
Madman is great for mega turns and especially since you probably don't want the
Urchin in your deck at some point anyway. The on-trash benefits activate often enough that they play an important role in many games.
Spoils have their own role in many decks and are unique. They don't make games swingy. There is nothing swingy about Bandit Camp or Marauder. Pillage a little, I will agree, but not the others.
Ruins are very different because they are Actions, and can mess with any card that refers to Actions (Which I'll mention is quite a lot of cards.)
Shelters play a HUGE part in how you open. No longer can you open Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Baron, Ambassador etc. They also make many alt VP games much easier.
Rats is useful sometimes, but it is true it does make little difference in many games. Then again, I've seen it be the star of the board. Graverobber is really good and I use it a lot for turning $5 cards into Provinces, then gaining them again to turn them into more Provinces.

Out of all those complaints, you didn't even mention Kinghts!! They are the swingiest part of Dark Ages, with a huge luck factor on who gets what Knight, or even if Sir Martin is available in the first turn for a 4/3 start.
The "trashing" theme is conveyed really well since over half the cards ether trash, have on-trash benefits, are activated by trashing or deal with the trash in some way. DA is by far one of the best expansions. Although I'll guess you think Prosperity is the best... the expansion that encourages simple strategies around simple treasure cards.

1. No, I am not saying mercenary is weak or skippable. Why do you read that? The problem is that urchin is a cantrip so people may as well just get it. If there is interesting strategy, the question would be how many you want to get, and how early. The problem is, with just a couple of urchins, sometimes you can get mercenary very soon, sometimes you can't. When you get mercenary, sometimes you get major benefit out from the trashing immediately, sometimes you don't. In the end it's (for me) pretty hard to see what is the best strategy around these two cards since a strategy relying on getting to the mercenary ASAP is perhaps too slow in average, yet when it aligns it can just be very significant. So in the end I usually just get a few urchins and see what happens. And of course they then would never be a cornerstone of a deck.

2. Spoils are swingy because in a BM-ish deck it really depends on whether you can make to the next $ level when you draw it. Think about gold in a BM-ish game. Getting to the first gold early and then getting another gold when you draw the first gold gives the player quite some advantage. Now if you can only use that gold once the difference becomes even more significant. And Honestly if you play Marauder+BM for a few times you'll see why that card is swingy.

3. I think it is a bad thing shelters make those openings unviable. Enabling fairgrounds to the point that people would almost always go for it isn't so hot either.

4. Graverobber. Yes. But don't you see that play is very similar to the remodel family and the "gain from trash" aspect is not so important? I would say the potential of this card is that it can gain cards back immediately in a turn (say procession something then grave rob it) then maybe play it again. It's just very hard to find a random kingdom to make this work.

5. Knights. I think they are a worthy upgrade of saboteur. Yeah, I can complain how making them different card by card does not alter the strategy space all that much, but due to the nature of the card I actually think it is a good idea. Trashing one card out from the top two cards on deck is very swingy and can be very frustrating at times. (If they are not at times frustrating enough then they are too weak...) Adding some flavor to those games to increase enjoyment can be a good idea.

6. As I said, a large part of my complaint is to play DA completely random.

7. My favorite expansion is cornucopia, probably partly for its absolute power creep but also for the subtlety involved. Then it's hinterlands and seaside, for their subtlety and power respectively. What you describe as Prosperity is simply untrue. But you are right I still like prosperity more than dark ages.

[popsofctown]

This card is really bad.  I want to like it but I think it's really bad.  4$ for a sometimes Lab.  There's no way to transition into this in a way that works because you have to get massive action density -before- you purchase these for them to be good.  So then you get massive action density, and you buy your 4$ usually-active city and it turns out it's a 4$ usually lab because you didn't purchase tons of terminal actions, you bought terminals and nonterminals in reasonable proportion.

The transition is just so awkward. 
I'm a bit surprised it's not a 3$ card so that it's easier to use +buys to transition into this and load up on them.  But I can see how that might get out of hand too.  I think it's a case of too good at 3$ not good enough at 4$.  This would have had a niche if you could use 6$ to buy two of these instead of a 5$ engine card, but buying two of these instead of a Province just isn't going to pan out, especially when they have draw-your-whole deck issues that make them compare terribly to Conspirator.

[KingZog3]

It was said just before, but Mercenary is often so good at trashing it leaves one player unable to catch up.
Madman is great for mega turns and especially since you probably don't want the
Urchin in your deck at some point anyway. The on-trash benefits activate often enough that they play an important role in many games.
Spoils have their own role in many decks and are unique. They don't make games swingy. There is nothing swingy about Bandit Camp or Marauder. Pillage a little, I will agree, but not the others.
Ruins are very different because they are Actions, and can mess with any card that refers to Actions (Which I'll mention is quite a lot of cards.)
Shelters play a HUGE part in how you open. No longer can you open Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Baron, Ambassador etc. They also make many alt VP games much easier.
Rats is useful sometimes, but it is true it does make little difference in many games. Then again, I've seen it be the star of the board. Graverobber is really good and I use it a lot for turning $5 cards into Provinces, then gaining them again to turn them into more Provinces.

Out of all those complaints, you didn't even mention Kinghts!! They are the swingiest part of Dark Ages, with a huge luck factor on who gets what Knight, or even if Sir Martin is available in the first turn for a 4/3 start.
The "trashing" theme is conveyed really well since over half the cards ether trash, have on-trash benefits, are activated by trashing or deal with the trash in some way. DA is by far one of the best expansions. Although I'll guess you think Prosperity is the best... the expansion that encourages simple strategies around simple treasure cards.

2. Spoils are swingy because in a BM-ish deck it really depends on whether you can make to the next $ level when you draw it. Think about gold in a BM-ish game. Getting to the first gold early and then getting another gold when you draw the first gold gives the player quite some advantage. Now if you can only use that gold once the difference becomes even more significant. And Honestly if you play Marauder+BM for a few times you'll see why that card is swingy.

3. I think it is a bad thing shelters make those openings unviable. Enabling fairgrounds to the point that people would almost always go for it isn't so hot either.

4. Graverobber. Yes. But don't you see that play is very similar to the remodel family and the "gain from trash" aspect is not so important? I would say the potential of this card is that it can gain cards back immediately in a turn (say procession something then grave rob it) then maybe play it again. It's just very hard to find a random kingdom to make this work.

5. Knights. I think they are a worthy upgrade of saboteur. Yeah, I can complain how making them different card by card does not alter the strategy space all that much, but due to the nature of the card I actually think it is a good idea. Trashing one card out from the top two cards on deck is very swingy and can be very frustrating at times. (If they are not at times frustrating enough then they are too weak...) Adding some flavor to those games to increase enjoyment can be a good idea.

2. Have you considered Spoils aren't great for BM? Bandit Camp makes for a very controlled deck. Marauder is an early attack card that slows the game down. Most of the time both players will go for it. It not any more swingy or luck based than Sea hag.

3. There are many many kingdoms where Gardens or Silk Roads rush is clearly the winning strategy. Is Trader Feodum a Problem? I don't think so, but it's not an interesting game since it'll probably be better than anything else on the board. There are enough set-ups where the winning strategy is pretty obvious that this complaint should be more general. Sure Fairgrounds gets pumped up, but it's not a problem else you consider Trader/Feodum and maybe even Ironworks/Gardens a problem. In fact, Goons games 99% of the time mean everyone will try to make a Goons engine, because it's just really really good. If Fairgrounds/Shelters is a problem, then these are all problems too. Keep in mind, you're saving 3 essentially useless cards the whole game in order to have 3 more unique cards. It's good, but on the same level as Trader/Feodum.

4. Maybe I'm crazy or something. Graverobber plays like Expand, except cheaper and more affordable. Sure its a variant, but the trash gaining is useful because it pairs up very nicely with it's Remodel ability (Unlike Rogue, which is based on whatever your opponent is buying). Armory plays very similar to Workshop. So do almost ALL the Village variants. I'll do +Actions+cards with Village or Workers Village, they play identically. Yes Workers Village is better, but usually they aren't on the board at the same time, so I can just take it without thinking which is better. Dominion has tons of cards that are variants of each other, and Graverobber adds Trash gaining, which is very different than the other Remodel variants.

5. If Shelters is a problem with Fairgrounds, how is Knights not? And they are very swingy. One person get's Sir Micheal, then the next one is Dame Josephine. Great, so either I let you trash my cards and lower my hand size, or I take the Knight which does nothing for my deck to counter yours, possibly revealing a better Knight underneath. Most of the time I go for Knights is because my opponent went for Knights. We trash the crap out of each other, then we actually start to build our decks once all the Knights are in the trash. Not every game, but many. Many attack cards are frustrating, that's not the point. The point is that complaining about certain cards means you have to apply those complaints to all the cards and see if they fall into your "Not a great expansion" category.

[timchen]

2. Have you considered Spoils aren't great for BM? Bandit Camp makes for a very controlled deck. Marauder is an early attack card that slows the game down. Most of the time both players will go for it. It not any more swingy or luck based than Sea hag.

3. There are many many kingdoms where Gardens or Silk Roads rush is clearly the winning strategy. Is Trader Feodum a Problem? I don't think so, but it's not an interesting game since it'll probably be better than anything else on the board. There are enough set-ups where the winning strategy is pretty obvious that this complaint should be more general. Sure Fairgrounds gets pumped up, but it's not a problem else you consider Trader/Feodum and maybe even Ironworks/Gardens a problem. In fact, Goons games 99% of the time mean everyone will try to make a Goons engine, because it's just really really good. If Fairgrounds/Shelters is a problem, then these are all problems too. Keep in mind, you're saving 3 essentially useless cards the whole game in order to have 3 more unique cards. It's good, but on the same level as Trader/Feodum.

4. Maybe I'm crazy or something. Graverobber plays like Expand, except cheaper and more affordable. Sure its a variant, but the trash gaining is useful because it pairs up very nicely with it's Remodel ability (Unlike Rogue, which is based on whatever your opponent is buying). Armory plays very similar to Workshop. So do almost ALL the Village variants. I'll do +Actions+cards with Village or Workers Village, they play identically. Yes Workers Village is better, but usually they aren't on the board at the same time, so I can just take it without thinking which is better. Dominion has tons of cards that are variants of each other, and Graverobber adds Trash gaining, which is very different than the other Remodel variants.

5. If Shelters is a problem with Fairgrounds, how is Knights not? And they are very swingy. One person get's Sir Micheal, then the next one is Dame Josephine. Great, so either I let you trash my cards and lower my hand size, or I take the Knight which does nothing for my deck to counter yours, possibly revealing a better Knight underneath. Most of the time I go for Knights is because my opponent went for Knights. We trash the crap out of each other, then we actually start to build our decks once all the Knights are in the trash. Not every game, but many. Many attack cards are frustrating, that's not the point. The point is that complaining about certain cards means you have to apply those complaints to all the cards and see if they fall into your "Not a great expansion" category.

I really have to doubt your logic here:

2. I don't care whether spoils are good or not in a BM deck. But they are definitely more swingy. Sure you can play them in a controlled manner in an engine (this probably only works with bandit camp though) but then in those cases it's not too different from virtual coin. The marauder is certainly more swingy then sea hag without the discard-top-op-the-deck part, due to the effect I mentioned.

3. It is not a game-breaking problem for some kingdoms to have clear dominant strategy, but it is certainly preferable for the kingdom to have diverse viable strategies. And I am not even complaining fairgrounds/shelters is a problem, my point is just that the shelters should have given you more interesting games but in many situations they do not differ meaningfully from estates(except necropolis). And the examples you give are actually cases where they make the kingdom even less interesting.

4. I agree with you on grave robber. My problem about the card is just that it starts from some interesting premises (gain from trash!) but in the end it just plays like another remodel variant.

5. Maybe I should reinstate what I am complaining. I am complaining that if I include DA and choose my kingdom completely randomly, it seems I will more frequently get less interesting kingdoms comparing to w/o DA. And the complaints for the cards are the reasons I think why this is the case, especially since people like you seeing the flashy and complicated cards in DA are calling it the best expansion.

[Warfreak2]

I disagree.  If there isn't a good $6 (read: Border Village), or something else to hit (read: Fortress), Procession is a bad idea.  You are spending $4 on Proc when you could be buying something else.  Then you are counting on it to collide with your Mountebank, when it's a dead card otherwise... and that'll be often, since you'll be getting hit by Mountebank as well.  And then you're spending another $5 to re-buy a Mountebank?  The opportunity cost of two buys for $4 and $5 is significant, and that's in the SUCCESS scenario.  You might not get Proc with your MB at all.

Here's a game against a top player where we both went for Procession/Mountebank, with only Adventurer at $6. I was fortunate to connect mine twice before my opponent did; I won by resignation. OK, so those turns I give two Curses and two Coppers, I do nothing else except replace my Mountebank... but there is an opportunity cost associated with not giving your opponent four junk cards at a time. Winning the Curse split is a big deal. Besides, there are almost always $4s available that you will want to double anyway (Marauder in this game), so you get more Mountebanks that way.

I think a lot of people fail to connect their Procession with anything, and think that is the fault of the card; you have to play differently, not only can you afford to have a much higher action density, but you actually need that higher action density to make sure your Procession doesn't whiff. Obviously Procession would be a terrible addition to BM/Smithy, you have to play a particular kind of deck.

In the latter game, that loss is more due to Fairgrounds, I think.   Buying Ruins is not generally a path to success, Menagerie or not.

Fairgrounds isn't what enabled those deck-drawing megaturns... my opponent had nine Menageries, and trashed all their Copper. Yes, they had three Fairgrounds at 6VP each, but I lost by 30 points. Remove Fairgrounds from that game and I still would have lost, even if my opponent just passed the turns buying Fairgrounds - but without Menagerie, the whole thing doesn't work. I gave him 6 Ruins by turn 11, but Crossroads also provides +actions enough that they actually played a lot of those Ruins. Hence, a Menagerie/Ruins engine. (-: