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Author Topic: Combo: Tactician-Vault  (Read 4953 times)

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liopoil

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Combo: Tactician-Vault
« on: June 09, 2013, 11:08:51 am »
+1

I played a game with Tactician and Vault recently. They combo really well together. The main idea is to play a tactician, then on the tactician turn, play a vault drawing up to 11 cards. Discard 8 of them, then play another tactician discarding the rest, then buying a province. Repeat. This doesn't need very much support I found. A bit of trashing is necessary, and if there are attack cards this strategy can easily get destroyed. But otherwise, just open trasher-silver, then trash a few cards, and buy 2 tacticians and 1 vault, and you're good to go. This can choke on green if you don't draw your vault and tactician because your deck got too big. Adding in exactly one sifter can be huge. In this case, cellar is probably better than warehouse, but both work great. The trasher can be pretty much anything I think. Lookout in particular I think would be good because it doesn't trash from your hand, so you can play it and still have enough cards to play vault and tactician. Also, when trashing, once you have gotten your vault and tacticians, you should prioritize trashing treasures over estates. You are never going to play the treasures again, while the estates may give you the crucial couple extra points at the end of the game.

I looked and didn't find an article on the combo yet, which was surprising. I feel like I remember this being talked about before on these forums.
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sitnaltax

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 11:15:22 am »
+1

The idea of using two Tacticians and turning almost all of each big hand into virtual money is broadly called "Double Tactician". Vault is of course a great enabler and Secret Chamber works too if you have even a little bit of draw. Black Market works too, in its crazy way. Other Double Tactician decks work with cantrip or terminal money. There's an article on the wiki here that summarizes the previous strategy articles that've been written: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tactician
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 11:16:59 am »
0

This is well-known, and I'm quite surprised if there's no article on it (though I can't specifically remember one).

I disagree with you on support - it doesn't really need anything. Of course, a little sifting helps, as you have 1 extra card to play with. (11, you need 2 for the next tactician (tactician itself plus something to discard with it), 8 for the province). Opponent's vault often gives this to you.

The biggest problem it will have with discard attacks - anything stronger than urchin or pillage and you can't hit your $8, and pillage often wrecks you anyway. It can potentially also be slow.

Adding a second vault helps the deck a lot, but you have to judge whether you have time for it or not. Getting to 3-4 5-costs quick is absolutely key.

liopoil

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 11:24:31 am »
0

I was thinking more that if you have trashing you only need 1 vault, (because since you're buying so few cards, the tactician+vault can draw your whole deck, insuring you draw your vault), and you only need the sifting if the trashing wasn't enough (or there wasn't trashing).

I know about virtual-cash double tactician, those are quite fun :D. This one in particular stuck out to me as super-fast though, because you need to buy so few cards.
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qmech

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 11:47:26 am »
+1

If you have few enough cards that you're guaranteed to draw Vault with Tactician, then you don't have enough to discard with the Vault and buy a Province.

Once you do buy Provinces your deck is going to grow and make things worse, so a second Vault is almost always worthwhile.
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SCSN

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 12:04:10 pm »
0

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 12:05:51 pm »
+2

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
Yes, it is. And pretty significantly so.

liopoil

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 12:27:14 pm »
+1

If you have few enough cards that you're guaranteed to draw Vault with Tactician, then you don't have enough to discard with the Vault and buy a Province.

Once you do buy Provinces your deck is going to grow and make things worse, so a second Vault is almost always worthwhile.
A second vault is probably worthwhile, but you still need to draw your other tactician, so a small deck is good. If you have ~13 cards, 1 is the tactician in play, so when you draw to 10 you have a 5/6 chance of drawing vault, and virtually guarranteed if you have a sifter. A trasher like lookout is good because you can trash 1 card a turn while buying a province a turn, keeping your deck at the same # of cards.
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rrenaud

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 12:53:32 pm »
0

I wrote about a game where I used this combo with the addition of a cellar.  It was the most stable deck I've ever built.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1311.0
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 05:02:02 pm »
0

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
Yes, it is. And pretty significantly so.

To compare:

Vault Double Tac needs just 3 buys to set up (Vault, Tac, Tac) and maybe a few other buys (starting Silvers, maybe another Vault or Tac for safety) but they aren't necessary.  Vault-BM will want multiple Vaults as well as a bunch of Gold.
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sudgy

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 07:06:59 pm »
0

Also, Vault-GM is amazing.  Every Vault is an instant GM.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Schneau

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2013, 08:58:58 pm »
+1

Do you want Vault or Tactician first in Double-Tac + Vault? I would assume Vault, since it guarantees the money you need for a Tactician, but in the game rrenaud linked to he opened Tactician/Cellar. Of course, either one on 5/2 is probably dominant over a 4/3 opening, and this was about 1.5 years ago, but was this a mistake, or does it not really matter?
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liopoil

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2013, 09:06:31 pm »
0

I would get a vault first.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 04:05:06 am »
+1

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
Yes, it is. And pretty significantly so.

The simulator disagrees with WanderingWinder. Vault BM wins 50-43 against Tact/Vault. I looked at a few game logs and didn't see any mistakes so I'm going to trust the sim here.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 04:20:45 am »
0

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
Yes, it is. And pretty significantly so.

The simulator disagrees with WanderingWinder. Vault BM wins 50-43 against Tact/Vault. I looked at a few game logs and didn't see any mistakes so I'm going to trust the sim here.

Could the secondary effect be benefitting the BM player more? I can't think of any reason why it would, but how do they both stack up against other strategies?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 08:19:04 am »
0

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
Yes, it is. And pretty significantly so.

The simulator disagrees with WanderingWinder. Vault BM wins 50-43 against Tact/Vault. I looked at a few game logs and didn't see any mistakes so I'm going to trust the sim here.
I have versions that get them within about a point and a half. Buy 1 tactician before the first vault, then the first vault, second tactician, and then go. The other issues are that it will play Vault/BM better than Vault-tactician. Unless you're doing reshuffle dancing (a bigger deal for vault/double-tac to start with), you almost always want to use the opponent's vault to trigger yourself in double-tac/vault, because the one card doesn't matter, and you really need to draw that second tactician. If you have your vault in hand, the sim won't do that. I'm also not sure how it handles the last turn - you can at least squeak an extra estate, sometimes a second duchy out of your last turn on double-tac/vault. If it gets that wrong, this would be quite significant.

Having said that, it's at least close, and in terms of speed, Vault/BM does indeed seem 'faster' - double tac/vault is 'stronger' and in some ways more resilient. Anyway, I think double tac/vault is a little stronger, and more important, it's quite a bit better against most other decks.

DG

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 09:10:37 am »
+1

I also found the strategies coming in about level and the simulator bot does misplay the tactician/vault combo a little. I seemed to find it better going tactician/vault after a silver/silver opening but starting vault/- on 5/2. There also seemed to be an option to go with a single tactician with 2+ vaults as well. Maybe it's choice that has to follow the draws and the other kingdom cards.
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liopoil

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 12:24:30 pm »
+1

I assume in the simulator the only kingdom cards you buy are tactician and vault. Usually when you try this you'll buy another card, be it a sifter, a trasher, or something else that helps it.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2013, 01:52:46 pm »
0

Is this combo actually faster than ordinary Vault-BM, which is both very fast and reasonably immune to greening?

I suspect that it is not...
Yes, it is. And pretty significantly so.

The simulator disagrees with WanderingWinder. Vault BM wins 50-43 against Tact/Vault. I looked at a few game logs and didn't see any mistakes so I'm going to trust the sim here.

Since you're the sim guy, I assume you covered all the bases, but I'll ask two questions anyway to be sure. Did you:
  • Prevent the Tac/Vault player from buying additional money after getting the necessary components?
  • Optimize for the correct number of Tacticians and Vaults, and their buy order? (Tactician #3 is often very helpful, although typically the second choice behind Province; same for Vault #2 and #3)
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Robz888

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2013, 02:29:55 pm »
+1

I think part of the thing is, there's very little you can add to make Vault Big Money perform better.

While straight up, it might be very close to Tac/Vault or even superior, the other Kingdom cards are going to complicate matters, and very often provide things that tip you to Tac/Vault, I'd say.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Combo: Tactician-Vault
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2013, 03:22:36 pm »
0

I also found the strategies coming in about level and the simulator bot does misplay the tactician/vault combo a little. I seemed to find it better going tactician/vault after a silver/silver opening but starting vault/- on 5/2. There also seemed to be an option to go with a single tactician with 2+ vaults as well. Maybe it's choice that has to follow the draws and the other kingdom cards.
Ah yes! This point on the opening gets me to about a full point advantage for Tac/Vault, even with the misplay the sim has.

Edit: This is mostly off the strength of being much better 5/2; it's still a hair's breath under on a 4/3
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 03:26:04 pm by WanderingWinder »
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