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Author Topic: Preview #3: Journeyman  (Read 59071 times)

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LastFootnote

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Preview #3: Journeyman
« on: June 05, 2013, 09:23:08 am »
+5



On the metaphorical road from being an apprentice to being a master, there comes a point when you must hit the physical roads and travel around the land, practicing your craft. Your travels could you take you all over Europe, from some famous place in Spain, to Wawel Castle on the Vistula, built during Casimir III's reign. There you might see the sword Szczerbiec, which is all that remains of the Polish crown jewels today. The hilt is decorated with flowers, symbols, and magical formulas, and the blade has a notch in it, a gap, which currently holds a small shield with the coat of arms of Poland. You wouldn't be working on anything so fancy yourself though; you would only be a Journeyman. Which is today's card, hooray, I got there.

At one point the 13-card Guilds somehow squeezed in a minor third theme, which was "name a card." I didn't end up including much of it, but Doctor and Journeyman give you a taste of it. Name a card; draw three cards that aren't it. During playtesting we sometimes called this one Bigot Parade. "We hate Estates!" they chant, marching past the Jagiellonian University, which Casimir III established.

Early in the game, Copper and Estate are the popular options. Later on you might name another VP card, or Curse, or maybe a Village you've got that you feel like you'll be so unlucky as to draw now with no actions left. Too many Journeymen? Just name Journeyman.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 05:32:36 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 09:24:33 am »
+1

For those who don't have BGG available:

Journeyman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 cards that are not the named card. Put those cards into your hand and discard the rest.
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RTT

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 09:27:13 am »
0

cool card drawer.
motivates to keep track of your deck.

I think its a good combo with tunnel BM decks.

name tunnel discard them for gold and draw the money.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 09:27:15 am »
0

A card that kinda-sorta lets you draw whatever you want.  Nice.  Of course, that's assuming you're running a low variety deck.  This seems like a good draw card to me.  Kind of a combination of Smithy and Hunting Party (though not nearly as good as the latter).  Early on, you can use it as a pseudo Chancellor to reshuffle more often.

I don't think it's a power card, but it's certainly a 5.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 09:27:40 am »
+1

Clear Scout synergy!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 09:28:30 am »
0

I think this will play a lot like Catacombs, except maybe slightly better.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 09:29:58 am »
0

I think it's best to compare it with Catacombs.

Catacombs: 3 cards you don't like? Try these 3
Journeyman: Skip 1 card you don't like until you have 3

It's almost like....Scout! But instead of putting the cards you don't like into your hand, it just skips and discards it.
Seems pretty decent in draw decks, at least we get a new BM benchmark out of it.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 09:31:10 am »
+4

I'm really enjoying the Casimir III gag.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 09:32:27 am »
0

Name Copper with Counting House in your deck.  Needs help though, not least that Journeyman is terminal.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 09:33:10 am »
+12

Seems familiar?!

Gatherer by andwilk
$5 - Action

Name two cards.  Reveal cards from your deck until you have revealed two cards that you did not name.  Place those two cards into your hand and discard the rest.

Winner of Challenge #4: Terminal Drawer
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 09:33:33 am »
+2

Name Copper with Counting House in your deck.  Needs help though, not least that Journeyman is terminal.

Damn it.  Isn't this always the case when it looks like Counting House has a combo?
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 09:35:36 am »
+2

Damn it.  Isn't this always the case when it looks like Counting House has a combo?

Seems like Counting House's only hope is for Donald to make a "+1 action/discard your deck" card
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 09:39:48 am »
0

Name Copper with Counting House in your deck.

And have it trigger a reshuffle :D

I don't really like the card because it's not that different from Catacombs, and I'd rather see something completely new. But I guess there just needs to be a $5 terminal +3 Cards in there, and as far as that goes this is a decent addition.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 09:48:58 am »
0

And have it trigger a reshuffle :D

But any Coppers Journeyman reveals won't be discarded until it's fully resolved. Still probably not practical, though.
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brokoli

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 09:50:40 am »
+3

Okay, we needed terminal draw, we have terminal draw. That's cool. Now I'll continue to refresh DS's home page every 5 seconds until tomorrow.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 09:56:35 am »
0

Seems familiar?!

Gatherer by andwilk
$5 - Action

Name two cards.  Reveal cards from your deck until you have revealed two cards that you did not name.  Place those two cards into your hand and discard the rest.

Winner of Challenge #4: Terminal Drawer

Whoa, that's crazy!!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2013, 10:02:50 am »
0

( Indicating that guilds is actually a pack of fan cards if you also mention the Fan Expansion Proletariat ) :P

no no, I think Donald have mention that he do not look at any fan card.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 10:08:08 am »
+1

Damn it.  Isn't this always the case when it looks like Counting House has a combo?

Seems like Counting House's only hope is for Donald to make a "+1 action/discard your deck" card

You mean Trusty Steed.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2013, 10:08:32 am »
+1

With further reflection, I think Journeyman will be able to do some things that Catacombs can't. If you are able to trash your Coppers and Estates, it would be interesting to set up a deck with 2 or 3 Golds, and then name Province (or something else earlier) to pick up the Golds. This type of BM-ish play may be pretty strong. In this case at least, Journeyman seems to like decks without much variety, in order to skip one kind of card to get another that you know you'll like.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2013, 10:10:07 am »
0

I think this is actually a very powerful card, for Big Money just always name copper and you will often draw silvers and golds easily. And in engines with no trashing, it can act like a terminal stables to skip coppers.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 10:11:15 am »
+4

Our poor Adventurer, I feel as if the Journeyman is throwing him underneath a bus or should I say Death Cart.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 10:12:09 am »
+3

Hmm...Lots of deck tracking required in this expansion.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 10:13:53 am »
0

This seems like it would be strong in alt-VP as well as BM. Going for Duke/Duchy? Name Duchy, and suddenly you've filtered half of your green. Or in slogs, name Curse/Estate.

This was mentioned yesterday, but Ruins are going to make these cards fairly weak. On the flip side, someone who's learned to track their deck is going to have a massive edge with these cards. Like, cheat code massive.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2013, 10:15:27 am »
0

You can name the ace of spades if you just want to draw next 3 cards, right?
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 10:15:52 am »
+2

OK.... I'm going to just come out and say it. This card is a little dull. I really liked the first two spoiler cards. But this one not so much.... not much to set it apart from a bunch of other card-drawers....

I thought we were a good chance of seeing a card called journeyman in this set but in my imagination it was something a bit like and urchin/mercenary or hermit/madman.... the journeyman and the master or some such.

Also, what is with the art on this card. I've learned to cope with the cartoony style of some of the dominion art.... but this? It looks a bit like a still from an early 1st person adventure game circa about 15 years ago, back before computer game graphics started looking halfway decent.
 

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 10:16:11 am »
+5

You can name the ace of spades if you just want to draw next 3 cards, right?
yes then you payed 5 for a smithy
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 10:18:23 am »
0

I think this is pretty good in some decks, but not all. In an engine without trashing, this card be massive advantage. You can even create an engine in what would otherwise be a slog. In BM decks, you just name copper or Green and draw silvers and golds. On paper, it doesn't sound fantastic, but I think it is better than what people are giving credit for.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 10:20:11 am »
0

In big money, this card acts similarly to other +3 cards. You can skip coppers or estates to get higher money density draw. Or you could potentially throw in a bunch of one non-terminal card and name that, which could be worth it with the right non-terminal. Something like squire or forager or rebuild might combo well enough.

But I think this card will really shine in no/low trash engines or engines which green early, and it'll play similarly to catacombs. Basically, you pay an extra $ over smithy, but you add a lot more consistency to your draws, which is what hurts those types of decks the most.

I don't think this will ever be a power card, but it should have a place in a large number of decks.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 10:21:27 am »
0

You mean Trusty Steed.

Wow, I'm dumb. I guess I've been misreading the card. I always thought you could choose two, or you could do the silver/discard thing. +1 to Trusty Steed!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 10:21:36 am »
+1

name curse and ou are good to go vs Sea Hag.

Like doctor this is another counter to Sea hag.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2013, 10:21:44 am »
0

Our poor Adventurer, I feel as if the Journeyman is throwing him underneath a bus or should I say Death Cart.

Still, Journeyman doesn't guarantee you'll draw Treasures - it just guarantees you won't draw a specific card.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2013, 10:29:17 am »
0

I like the card. Not super fancy, but a pretty good terminal draw. There needs to be a couple of these for some engines to be viable. And every card can't be super awesome and shiny like, say, Procession.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2013, 10:30:35 am »
+1

Also, what is with the art on this card. I've learned to cope with the cartoony style of some of the dominion art.... but this? It looks a bit like a still from an early 1st person adventure game circa about 15 years ago, back before computer game graphics started looking halfway decent.

It's the exact same style of art that is on Hunting Party, Hamlet, Junk Dealer and Rebuild.  Funnily enough, these were all also done by Kurt Miller.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 10:30:45 am »
0

I find this card to be underwhelming. But then, not all cards can be game changers. And that's fine. A Journeyman is basically a Smithy with a little extra. Well, Farming Village is basically a Village with a little extra, so there's precedent. It's no Torturer, but it does provide some variety to the "+3 Cards" family.

It's a good card, and it'll still be fun. It just won't make people say, "Whoa." And not all cards need to do that.

I'm glad it wasn't Preview #1. Baker was a fine way to introduce Guilds to us. It would have been a lot different if Journeyman was chosen as the introduction. 
 
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2013, 10:31:21 am »
+1

yes then you payed 5 for a smithy

that isn't necessarily a bad thing. there are many boards where you would gladly pay $4 for a vanilla village.

Still, Journeyman doesn't guarantee you'll draw Treasures - it just guarantees you won't draw a specific card.

i am pretty confident you can get the expected value of treasures drawn by journeyman to be 2 or higher in most cases, especially if it is a scenario where adventurer would be useful.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2013, 10:31:27 am »
+9

You can name the ace of spades if you just want to draw next 3 cards, right?

Beware! The preview of tomorrow might be the Ace of Spades!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2013, 10:33:18 am »
0

You can name the ace of spades if you just want to draw next 3 cards, right?
Yes, or Throat Wolf.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2013, 10:36:50 am »
0

Our poor Adventurer, I feel as if the Journeyman is throwing him underneath a bus or should I say Death Cart.

Still, Journeyman doesn't guarantee you'll draw Treasures - it just guarantees you won't draw a specific card.

True, but consider the following when using it for BM.

1.)  It's cheaper so it doesn't compete with Gold

2.)  It draws one more card than Adventurer

3.)  Can skip any card
     a)  Copper for fast cycling and getting to Silver/Gold specifically
     b)  Province late game when you want to a better chance at cash
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2013, 10:38:14 am »
0

Yeah, not terribly exciting, but as said before, those cards are needed as well.

I did get one of the names right at least in my fake spoiler.

I think this might be quite strong in engines where estate trashing is available, but copper trashing isn't. Then you can ensure that you'll draw 3 engine cards by naming copper.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2013, 10:46:41 am »
0

I think this might be quite strong in engines where estate trashing is available, but copper trashing isn't. Then you can ensure that you'll draw 3 engine cards by naming copper.

Or the converse could also be useful, because drawing Estate is decidedly worse than drawing Copper.

Early in the game, this is easily worth a Gold or more if you just name Estate.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2013, 10:47:56 am »
+1

You can name the ace of spades if you just want to draw next 3 cards, right?

Beware! The preview of tomorrow might be the Ace of Spades!


Black Lotus.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2013, 10:48:08 am »
0

Also, what is with the art on this card. I've learned to cope with the cartoony style of some of the dominion art.... but this? It looks a bit like a still from an early 1st person adventure game circa about 15 years ago, back before computer game graphics started looking halfway decent.

It's the exact same style of art that is on Hunting Party, Hamlet, Junk Dealer and Rebuild.  Funnily enough, these were all also done by Kurt Miller.

You're right. I can see the similarities now I go back and look at them (except for Hunting Party, that image is so dark it is hard to make out what is going on there). Most of these others just seem a bit unmemorable.... I find the art on journeyman quite jarring and out of place.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2013, 10:48:38 am »
+1

Agreed that the card doesn't have much of an initial wow factor, but I'm sure it's more interesting and powerful than it appears. I'm not sure I would have chosen it to preview, but I guess some of the really cool cards should remain a secret until the release.

I just hope this is the least interesting card in the set.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2013, 10:54:15 am »
+2

It looks weaker than an embassy but doesn't gift a silver. It looks weaker than a vault but doesn't let your opponent draw cards. It looks stronger than a catacombs but doesn't have a trash benefit. Seems fair enough. Maybe there will be some benefit for players who can manage their deck contents better to suit the journeyman, maybe enough benefit to make the card interesting.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 11:25:42 am by DG »
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platykurtic

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2013, 11:05:47 am »
0

This probably goes well with trash for benefit like Apprentice and Bishop where you're likely to be trashing you Estates early but not your coppers. Then you can safely name Copper and be sure to draw your important cards. This could make an engine possible where it otherwise wouldn't be..

Early game this is mostly just a terminal gold since you're naming Estate and drawing 3 Coppers, so it's definitely a mid/late game card
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2013, 11:08:08 am »
+4

Early game this is mostly just a terminal gold since you're naming Estate and drawing 3 Coppers, so it's definitely a mid/late game card

Isn't a terminal Gold (that cycles) in the early game pretty darn good?
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dondon151

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2013, 11:10:15 am »
0

Early game this is mostly just a terminal gold since you're naming Estate and drawing 3 Coppers, so it's definitely a mid/late game card

I like how this is the opposite of what I said.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2013, 11:21:22 am »
0

I immediatly thought to Gatherer in the Fan-card Contest too, because there are some fan cards you just can't forget...

But as part of a 5/x opening, when you play it on turn 3,4, all it does is drawing 2 coppers + the card you bought for $x... great if you play with Baker and opened 5/3 maybe ! Otherwise, it seems a not-so-better Smithy, as Sage from DA was a "cantrip only good on beginning" ? or am I wrong ? Okay, it's still a nice drawer if you need it, but I don't know whether it should be above Catacombs
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2013, 11:37:53 am »
0

I immediatly thought to Gatherer in the Fan-card Contest too, because there are some fan cards you just can't forget...

But as part of a 5/x opening, when you play it on turn 3,4, all it does is drawing 2 coppers + the card you bought for $x... great if you play with Baker and opened 5/3 maybe ! Otherwise, it seems a not-so-better Smithy, as Sage from DA was a "cantrip only good on beginning" ? or am I wrong ? Okay, it's still a nice drawer if you need it, but I don't know whether it should be above Catacombs

I expect this is strong enough to be worth passing up your $2 turn in order to take full advantage. Of course if there's a $2 card strong enough to be worth the risk of drawing it dead (or if there are no good $2s so you're not missing out anyhow) that's even better.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2013, 12:21:29 pm »
+21

But How Does it Combo With Scout? (Guilds #3)

Little known fact, Donald X. conceived the idea for Journeyman after making some changes to Scout, which turned out to be too strong in playtesting. Originally, Scout bore the additional text, "Name all the cards except Scout. Draw 3 cards, other than all the cards that aren't Scout." Because why would you want to draw a non-Scout card? But while this was intuitively correct, it sped up games too dramatically, so the text was dropped and Donald X. created Journeyman.

Now, here's where Donald X. actually made a mistake. He meant to include a disclaimer on Journeyman, "You have to name Scout." Because Scout is too good! It's just like an automatic name-Scout kinda thing, really warped and strategically uninteresting. But the folks at Rio Grande screwed up the card text, so now you have this situation where you can--gasp--name some other card than Scout, and so draw Scout via Journeyman.

Are there situations where you would name Scout, so as not to draw it? I can only think of one: You've decided to throw the game. Perhaps you bet money against yourself, or something? You are colluding with another player in a 3-player game? Really, it's a question for the Philosophers (and their Stones.)
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2013, 12:28:32 pm »
+2

At first I thought this was a great scout combo, but then I noticed the cardc you named gets discarded instead of being placed on top of the deck. Well, it would have been insanely strong if you could name estate and leave 4 of them on top, then pick them all up with scout. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was originally topdecking, but was changed for balance reasons.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2013, 12:29:05 pm »
0

Are there situations where you would name Scout, so as not to draw it? I can only think of one: You've decided to throw the game. Perhaps you bet money against yourself, or something?

You already throw the game when you buy scout.

But you can look at your top four cards with your scout and decide which card you do not want to draw, so, well, this is another way the way overpowered Scout combos with Journeyman.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2013, 12:33:26 pm »
+3

It is interesting how we've had three rather different art styles so far.  We have an anime girl who seems to be deathly afraid of bread, a scheming quack caught in a Dutch angle, and a couple statues from MYST.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2013, 12:35:04 pm »
0

The problem is, if you have scout and journeyman in your hand there is a high probability that your journeyman will cause an unwanted reshuffle, scout missing. So I think Journeyman have a really bad influence on scout, and you should always ignore journeyman if scout is on the board.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2013, 01:00:03 pm »
+1

I'm not sure what elevates my mood more, the actual previews or Robz888's Scout wisdom :D

Robz888: you should most definitely write an ehow article entitled "How to Use the Scout in Dominion".
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2013, 01:19:34 pm »
+1

I'm not sure what elevates my mood more, the actual previews or Robz888's Scout wisdom :D

Robz888: you should most definitely write an ehow article entitled "How to Use the Scout in Dominion".
Or create www.howdoesitcombowithscout.com
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2013, 01:29:13 pm »
+2

I'm not sure what elevates my mood more, the actual previews or Robz888's Scout wisdom :D

Robz888: you should most definitely write an ehow article entitled "How to Use the Scout in Dominion".
Or create www.howdoesitcombowithscout.com
And it doesn't have to be restricted to Dominion cards either.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2013, 01:40:12 pm »
0

The reason I dislike this card is because it's strictly better than Smithy.

Okay, you could make the same argument for Torturer, but that has different uses than just drawing 3 cards.

Catacombs was already strictly better and now we have another. I don't really like cards that are strictly better because when they're both available and you happen to have an extra Copper you will almost always get the higher valued (more options) one over the lower. If your deck needs a Village and you have $4 with Worker's Village available, you can get that instead.

Now maybe this card wants to say: "I'm strictly better than Smithy, but am I worth spending your Coin token on?" Let's say you happen upon a board with these two - which is unlikely enough as it it is - and you have a 4/3 split with a Coin token from Baker. Would you really get this instead of Smithy or save your token and just get the Smithy?

Also, cards that are strictly better just show a designer getting lazy. I get that it's difficult designing 200 different cards, but come on, this is an expansion with just 13 card slots, why give us this? I guess this is Guild's Harvest...
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2013, 01:47:11 pm »
+6

The reason I dislike this card is because it's strictly better than Smithy.

Okay, you could make the same argument for Torturer, but that has different uses than just drawing 3 cards.

Catacombs was already strictly better and now we have another. I don't really like cards that are strictly better because when they're both available and you happen to have an extra Copper you will almost always get the higher valued (more options) one over the lower. If your deck needs a Village and you have $4 with Worker's Village available, you can get that instead.

Now maybe this card wants to say: "I'm strictly better than Smithy, but am I worth spending your Coin token on?" Let's say you happen upon a board with these two - which is unlikely enough as it it is - and you have a 4/3 split with a Coin token from Baker. Would you really get this instead of Smithy or save your token and just get the Smithy?

Also, cards that are strictly better just show a designer getting lazy. I get that it's difficult designing 200 different cards, but come on, this is an expansion with just 13 card slots, why give us this? I guess this is Guild's Harvest...

I have no problem with a bunch of cards being strictly better than smithy for the same reason I have no problem with a bunch of cards being strictly better than village. I want a decent number of games to have terminal draw. This adds it with it's own small twist. But even so, the price difference between $4 and $5 is pretty significant. In games with both this and smithy and engine potential, I see getting some Journeymans (Journeymen?) and some smithies, just because the opportunity cost.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2013, 01:52:40 pm »
+5

I'm not sure what elevates my mood more, the actual previews or Robz888's Scout wisdom :D

Robz888: you should most definitely write an ehow article entitled "How to Use the Scout in Dominion".
Or create www.howdoesitcombowithscout.com
And it doesn't have to be restricted to Dominion cards either.

Behold as Scout removes grass stains from pants, mold from bread, and cilantro from salsa!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2013, 01:54:00 pm »
+2

The reason I dislike this card is because it's strictly better than Smithy.

That's just as true as saying Worker's Village (or ANY other $4 village) is strictly better than Village. Because yeah, they are... if you ignore the cost.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2013, 01:55:10 pm »
0

It's not that I don't like similar cards, I support your claim that a decent number of games should have terminal draw, I just don't like that these $5's are just Smithy+.

Would they have drawn 2 cards and given another "bonus" (like Ghost Ship for instance), or 4 cards and a penalty (like Council Room) I may have liked them better.

I would just have liked to see more variation, because I think there's a lot of room to explore.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2013, 01:55:55 pm »
0

The reason I dislike this card is because it's strictly better than Smithy.

Okay, you could make the same argument for Torturer, but that has different uses than just drawing 3 cards.

Catacombs was already strictly better and now we have another. I don't really like cards that are strictly better because when they're both available and you happen to have an extra Copper you will almost always get the higher valued (more options) one over the lower. If your deck needs a Village and you have $4 with Worker's Village available, you can get that instead.

Now maybe this card wants to say: "I'm strictly better than Smithy, but am I worth spending your Coin token on?" Let's say you happen upon a board with these two - which is unlikely enough as it it is - and you have a 4/3 split with a Coin token from Baker. Would you really get this instead of Smithy or save your token and just get the Smithy?

Also, cards that are strictly better just show a designer getting lazy. I get that it's difficult designing 200 different cards, but come on, this is an expansion with just 13 card slots, why give us this? I guess this is Guild's Harvest...

I have no problem with a bunch of cards being strictly better than smithy for the same reason I have no problem with a bunch of cards being strictly better than village. I want a decent number of games to have terminal draw. This adds it with it's own small twist. But even so, the price difference between $4 and $5 is pretty significant. In games with both this and smithy and engine potential, I see getting some Journeymans (Journeymen?) and some smithies, just because the opportunity cost.

Having both in one game also gives you double the terminal draw cards, which is particularly useful in 4-6 player games where piles run out quite quickly.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2013, 02:03:03 pm »
0

It's not that I don't like similar cards, I support your claim that a decent number of games should have terminal draw, I just don't like that these $5's are just Smithy+.

Would they have drawn 2 cards and given another "bonus" (like Ghost Ship for instance), or 4 cards and a penalty (like Council Room) I may have liked them better.

I would just have liked to see more variation, because I think there's a lot of room to explore.

There are tons of "+2 cards w/bonus":  everything from Moat to Nobles.  But it would be nice to see more "+4 cards w/penalty".

By the way, which category would you consider Embassy to be in?  On one hand it is net +2 cards, but with sifting selected from a large pool.  On the other hand, it is "+5 cards" with the penalty of discarding 3.  I'd probably include it in the former.
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Tables

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2013, 02:05:12 pm »
0

You can name the ace of spades if you just want to draw next 3 cards, right?
yes then you payed 5 for a smithy

You payed $5 for something that has the option to be a Smithy, or to be something different/better, when needed. Like... I dunno, Band of Misfits? Catacombs?
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brokoli

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2013, 02:05:19 pm »
0

Torturer is not strictly better than smithy because sometimes the opponent wants to discard cards (tunnel, ...), and sometimes you want the curse (fairgrounds, ...)
[/edgecase]
Seriously though, a $5 smithy can't be gained by Workshop, Ironworks, etc excepting bridge, highway and princess. A $4 is easier for 3 pile ending. Better for variety, and some other cases like Haggler, BoM or Catacombs. I think it would be less interesting to create cards it it was forbidden to design "strictly better but not at the same price" cards.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2013, 02:14:10 pm »
0

It's not that I don't like similar cards, I support your claim that a decent number of games should have terminal draw, I just don't like that these $5's are just Smithy+.

Would they have drawn 2 cards and given another "bonus" (like Ghost Ship for instance), or 4 cards and a penalty (like Council Room) I may have liked them better.

I would just have liked to see more variation, because I think there's a lot of room to explore.

There are tons of "+2 cards w/bonus":  everything from Moat to Nobles.  But it would be nice to see more "+4 cards w/penalty".

By the way, which category would you consider Embassy to be in?  On one hand it is net +2 cards, but with sifting selected from a large pool.  On the other hand, it is "+5 cards" with the penalty of discarding 3.  I'd probably include it in the former.
It feels like +3 cards when I play it, so I don't know, its sifting is really huge.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2013, 02:26:26 pm »
+1

It's not that I don't like similar cards, I support your claim that a decent number of games should have terminal draw, I just don't like that these $5's are just Smithy+.

Would they have drawn 2 cards and given another "bonus" (like Ghost Ship for instance), or 4 cards and a penalty (like Council Room) I may have liked them better.

I would just have liked to see more variation, because I think there's a lot of room to explore.

I don't think there are all that many terminal +3 cards. Smithy, Courtyard maybe, Nobles sort of, Torturer, Rabble, Margrave, Catacombs, and now Journeyman. That's only about 1 per expansion. I mean, I get your point that you want to explore more design space. But I think this card, while not super exciting, certainly does just that. 
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2013, 02:28:53 pm »
0

I can get over it, no worries, it just seems like a waste of a card slot to put something in which isn't all that game changing, but then again, they can't all be.
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dondon151

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2013, 02:40:09 pm »
+3

You guys can't imagine how offended I was when Scavenger infringed on Chancellor's design space! Grrr!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2013, 03:07:04 pm »
+10

this silver card is really stupid. it's strictly better than copper.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2013, 03:17:47 pm »
+1

Seriously though, a $5 smithy can't be gained by Workshop, Ironworks, etc excepting bridge, highway and princess.

You forgot Quarry + Black Market!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2013, 03:23:03 pm »
0

this silver card is really stupid. it's strictly better than copper.

Edge-case factory has found new fodder: Apothecary (and zillions of edge-cases I've in mind but don't dare to say, though  :) )
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2013, 03:26:47 pm »
0

So, Journeyman.

In Big Money, it seems alright. Early on, naming Estate gives you 3 treasures, which is better than Adventurer, and that's a $6 card right? ;) But seriously, Journeyman is probably going to be like Sage, in that it is awesome early on when you can avoid Estates and worse later when you have Duchies, and Provinces to dodge. Or you could name Copper, which is a good play some of the time. Need some good deck tracking to get full usage out of it.

However, in engines with low trashing it seems fantastic. If there's Estate trashing but not Copper trashing, naming Copper lets you draw 3 engine pieces. Kind of like Sage actually, now that I think about it. Although you can't guarantee the engine part you draw, you can at least get a good idea of what cards you'd want. If there's good trashing, then, well, it'll probably be more like +3 cards, but the ability to only draw terminal draw or +Actions makes it better than that. I for one really want to see Apothecary-Journeyman, because that sounds quite nice.

Definitely gets weaker with Shelters out.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2013, 03:30:28 pm »
+9

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2013, 03:40:56 pm »
0

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.
It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2013, 03:43:17 pm »
0

Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.
It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

You mean Peddler?  Other than its odd cost, that's what Peddler is.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2013, 03:48:51 pm »
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Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.
It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

You mean Peddler?  Other than its odd cost, that's what Peddler is.

Even with it's odd cost, that's still what it is.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2013, 03:53:24 pm »
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Davio, it seems like your problem is really with Smithy, rather than with all the $5 terminal cards that net you 2 additional cards in hand. If it weren't for Smithy, we'd just have a bunch of $5 terminal draw cards, none of which were "strictly" better or worse than the others. Sort of like we have Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, etc.

If it helps, I usually think of the Smithy as one of the "$5 terminal +3 Cards with a bonus" cards. Smithy's bonus is just the fact that it's cheaper. As others have pointed out, being $4 instead of $5 is quite significant due partly to how many gainers can gain cards costing up to $4.

Likewise, there are a bunch of +1 Card/+2 Actions cards, each of which has its own bonus. Village's bonus is that it only costs $3.
It reminds of why we have no straight up '+1 Card, +1 Action, +1$' card.

You mean Peddler?  Other than its odd cost, that's what Peddler is.

Even with it's odd cost, that's still what it is.

Well, that drives my point home. Cost differences are themselves bonuses/penalties that help differentiate cards, even when they're not in the card's text box (or when they are, like Peddler).
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2013, 03:55:34 pm »
+14

True story: when I started out playing on iso, I occasionally bought Peddler for $8, thinking "if it's that expensive, it must be really good".
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2013, 04:04:52 pm »
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Peddler's cost oddness is a huge deal.  With +buy on the board, you can often pick up several per turn.  Moreover, I often buy Peddlers specifically with Trash for Benefit in mind, or as a buffer against Swindler.  In those cases, the cantrip money is just a nice little bonus.

In fact, it's a big enough deal that I didn't originally care for the term "Peddler variant," since that made me think of price experimentation, not cantrip money.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2013, 04:05:46 pm »
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A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2013, 04:16:31 pm »
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A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong,

I don't think that's true. I think the real issue is that it's too bland.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2013, 04:34:03 pm »
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A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

Compare it to Oasis and Junk Dealer.  Oasis has the penalty of having to discard, and so costs $3.  Junk Dealer has the added benefit of allowing you to trash, and so costs $5.  Straight up Peddler has to cost $4.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2013, 04:39:37 pm »
+1

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

Compare it to Oasis and Junk Dealer.  Oasis has the penalty of having to discard, and so costs $3.  Junk Dealer has the added benefit of allowing you to trash, and so costs $5.  Straight up Peddler has to cost $4.

Junk dealer FORCES you to trash, so it's not strictly superior. A better example is Market. But just because a straight peddler is (usually) better than oasis at $3 and worse than market at $5 doesn't mean it HAS to be balanced at $4. It probably is, but it's possible there is no well balanced cost for a card. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the complexity of dominion is such that a vanilla cost peddler is no longer worth printing. It might have been back with only a couple sets, but it just doesn't add anything to the game at this point that you'd want to sacrifice another more interesting card for.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2013, 04:40:53 pm »
+1

I think Tournament is usually better than peddler and cost $4.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2013, 04:46:23 pm »
+2

A straight $4 Peddler would be too strong, I see Peddler's discount as a penalty similar to the no-copper rule for Grand Market.

Compare it to Oasis and Junk Dealer.  Oasis has the penalty of having to discard, and so costs $3.  Junk Dealer has the added benefit of allowing you to trash, and so costs $5.  Straight up Peddler has to cost $4.
This is a fallacy. Consider the following hypothetical card:
BAD DESIGN
Treasure
Worth $0
When you play this, you may gain up to two Coppers, putting them into your hand.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse.

This is worse than IGG (well, not *strictly* worse, of course, but most usually), but it's way too good to put at $4. Just because A>B>C and A costs 2 more than C doesn't mean B actually works at the level that's between.

Whether peddler would be too strong for $4... well, I think it would be one of the few strongest 4s, anyway, but 'too strong' is a bit subjective.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2013, 04:47:06 pm »
+1

I think Tournament is usually better than peddler and cost $4.

This is probably true in a 2-player game. Once there are 3 other people who can each reveal a Province, Tournament becomes "+1 Action" pretty fast.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2013, 04:57:09 pm »
+1

Not a lot to say about this card. I expect it's a little better than catacombs, usually. Its advantage is more prevalent earlier on, when you can skip cards you don't want a lot more realistically. Of course, later on those few dead things hurt more. Probably reasonably into engine games you will be naming chapel or doctor, just to pass up that now-dead trasher, but of course, with other strong trashers a la steward, skipping them is not such a big deal. So mostly good in light-trash engines or big money. Though money, you will name estate most of the game if you get this early in a shuffle. I do like that this rewards deck tracking, as actually seems to be what competitively might be called a theme of the set.

Actually, this card somehow reminds me a good bit of wandering minstrel. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find this is a top-3 terminal draw card (though I expect wharf, torturer, margrave all will still be generally better, knocking this to fourth; and of course, witch and ghost ship, but really drawing is not much of their purpose).

To continue my theme: How does this affect the opening? It doesn't, at least much. Probably a pretty good opener, can skip estates.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2013, 05:09:04 pm »
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Yeah, the Wandering minstrel comparison came to my mind as well.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2013, 05:51:16 pm »
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And putting wandering minstrels and journeymen together will probably be nombo.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2013, 05:57:21 pm »
+1

And putting wandering minstrels and journeymen together will probably be nombo.

Not necessarily, as there are often actions in your deck that you don't want to draw (the Chapel and Doctor WW mentioned, but also Ruins, Lookout, Steward, Sea Hag, Watchtower, Library and many others depending on the specific situation). Wandering Minstrel can help you in finding out what specifically to name, besides of course providing the +action to play the cards that you do want to draw.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 05:58:48 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2013, 07:59:25 pm »
+1

@WW: I think it seems like an understatement to say this is "probably a good opener".  This seems to be second to trading post as a non-attacking 5$ opener.  If you skip your 2$ purchase, then you've purchased a 5$ terminal gold, and the terminal part doesn't hurt at all yet.  But it's better than opening gold because you cycle at least 3 cards, usually 4, often 5.  It's a heck of a lot like opening Embassy.. almost exactly like opening Embassy with no penalty, you get almost as much cycling, and in both cases you have a virtually guaranteed 5$ hand.  You can't ask for much more than that, except for Trading Post's trashing and some attack cards that can get you 5$ and also screw up your opponent's turn.
I think it presses 5/2 advantage more than Wharf, even.  Wharf cycles merely as hard as this card, but then Wharf has this nasty habit of missing the reshuffle it just cycled to accelerate, so that does you less good.  The Silver/Silver head start on treasures isn't as far behind as with Journeyman.  This cycles just as hard as Wharf but doesn't miss the reshuffle, and it does a similarly strong job of improving your buying power.

What's more is that against a Wharf 5/2 you can try to do cute stuff with your 3/4 to catch up, and then transition into Wharf+cute stuff and win.  You might buy a highly competitive trasher or a 3-4$ attack card or a Fishing Village.  It's a lot harder to do that with Journeyman because trashing Estates is less powerful, and any action cards you buy will be uniquely named, so when you card count and get to the bottom of a deck with Fishing Village/Silver/Journeyman and play Journeyman you are not doing as well as the 5/2 opponent with Journeyman/Journeyman/Copper.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:00:51 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2013, 08:14:24 pm »
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True story: when I started out playing on iso, I occasionally bought Peddler for $8, thinking "if it's that expensive, it must be really good".

Hahaha.  Funny stuff.  You were suffering from the "you get what you pay for" syndrome.  Price... what a great marketing tool.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2013, 09:16:17 pm »
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@WW: I think it seems like an understatement to say this is "probably a good opener".
In a vacuum, I agree with you. I guess I left it there because it doesn't change the structure of openings like the previous two (5/3 and 6/2 possible; turn 1 self-triggered reshuffle possible). But I don't really disagree with you on the other stuff, except that I expect wharf to be a stronger enough card overall that you're going to want to open it over this anyway. Well, maybe I am wrong there, too.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2013, 09:27:57 pm »
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It is interesting how we've had three rather different art styles so far.  We have an anime girl who seems to be deathly afraid of bread, a scheming quack caught in a Dutch angle, and a couple statues from MYST.

"Interesting", yes. You've described these perfectly.

Of course comparing the art on Journeyman to the art of the 20year old MYST is harsh.... MYST was cutting edge in its day.... Journeyman looks like a contender for bottom three or bottom five of all the dominion card images. Strange because the art has been mostly so much better in recent expansions.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2013, 10:37:41 pm »
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I'm curious to know how well this card works in a total draw deck. More specifically, if it's ability can make up for its 5$ cost in such a deck even though it doesn't slow down your opponent like Torturer or Rabble.

I think terminal draw BM got another boost.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2013, 12:12:43 am »
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In a big money type deck where I expect to buy two journeymans and money, on a 5-2 should I open Journeyman/estate?  [Gaining a free VP off the fact that I'll probably be naming estate every time I journeyman?]  If not, would the presence of Loan make this worthwhile?
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2013, 12:23:20 am »
+1

No, don't open Estate. You won't draw that estate with Journeyman... but you're more likely to draw it in your regular 5-card hand!
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2013, 12:23:46 am »
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In a big money type deck where I expect to buy two journeymans and money, on a 5-2 should I open Journeyman/estate?  [Gaining a free VP off the fact that I'll probably be naming estate every time I journeyman?]  If not, would the presence of Loan make this worthwhile?

But that Estate might be in your hand at some points too.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2013, 12:33:07 am »
+1

Journeyman/Fool's Gold? You'd actually wind up naming Coppers more often then, I think, to maximise the chance of a collision. Journeyman/Fool's Gold with Mint follow-up?
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2013, 01:10:09 am »
+2

Journeyman/Fool's Gold? You'd actually wind up naming Coppers more often then, I think, to maximise the chance of a collision. Journeyman/Fool's Gold with Mint follow-up?
Mint/FG with Journeyman followup beats it, or I'll eat all three piles.

Mint aside, Journeyman+FG sounds good but it's such tremendous overkill, I'd rather have weaker draw with +Buy attached. Well+Buy means buying more FGs so I think that seals it. But even if it weren't for that, I might prefer something like CR or possibly even Storeroom let alone Margrave or Wharf.

Of course Journeyman could be compatible with some outside sources of +Buy; for instance Counterfeit/FG/Journeyman sounds monstrous. But I expect then you'd want to open with the +Buy and pick up the Journeyman later. Really an early Journeyman is no use at all if you're just going to rush the FG pile; you might as well pick it up later, unless perhaps it's some kind of mindgame.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 01:21:52 am by RD »
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2013, 01:31:20 am »
+2

What I find most interesting about Journeyman is that it allows you to ignore a curser. Hermit and Jack seem to be the bast cards at this. But, I sometimes like building a deck where my opponent gives me all ten curses, and I ignore them.

One thing of note, so far, it seems that even though this cards add a lot of strategic depth, Guilds isn't overly complex. I feel DA is a much more complex expansion. But, I guess there is a difference between making a card with a lot of complicated text and then making strategically complex cards. I am very much looking forward to playing with Guilds soon. I hope Goko has it to purchase when Origins starts, at the latest, within a week.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2013, 01:48:54 am »
0

@WW: I think it seems like an understatement to say this is "probably a good opener".
In a vacuum, I agree with you. I guess I left it there because it doesn't change the structure of openings like the previous two (5/3 and 6/2 possible; turn 1 self-triggered reshuffle possible). But I don't really disagree with you on the other stuff, except that I expect wharf to be a stronger enough card overall that you're going to want to open it over this anyway. Well, maybe I am wrong there, too.

No no no, I agree, you open Wharf over this.  What I meant was, if I'm in a tournament game and I draw 3/4 against 5/2 on a Journeyman/BM board, it's a much bigger "dang I'm screwed" than if the same thing occurs in a Wharf/BM board. 

It's not really actionable information, it was just an observation.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2013, 02:29:28 am »
+3

Journeyman's sifting is actually even more huge than Embassy in the early game. If you skip two estates with Journeyman, you essentially drew 5 cards and only discarded 2!! Whereas with Embassy you would have discarded 3 cards and also have given your opponent a silver. So, I would say it seems Journeyman seems to be a solid terminal draw card.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2013, 08:25:59 am »
0

Journeyman's sifting is actually even more huge than Embassy in the early game. If you skip two estates with Journeyman, you essentially drew 5 cards and only discarded 2!! Whereas with Embassy you would have discarded 3 cards and also have given your opponent a silver. So, I would say it seems Journeyman seems to be a solid terminal draw card.

Yeah, and you didn't feed your opponent a silver too. It's quite nice.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2013, 09:30:12 am »
+4

Start 4/3 with Baker on the board.

Open Treasure Map/Treasure Map.

Turn 3, Treasure Maps collide, topdeck four Golds.

Turn 4, spend 4 Golds and 1 Copper on Doctor, trashing the rest of your deck.  Draw 4 Golds + Doctor.

Turn 5, play Doctor, name and trash Copper.  Buy a Journeyman.

Now just keep buying Provinces and having Journeyman skip over Provinces.

Guilds synergy.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2013, 09:32:16 am »
0

I expected to see an Attack, an Alt-VP card or a card with +Buy, but well not all the previews can be that exciting.

So, it's another "Better than Smithy card" and is probably best comparable to Catacombs. This makes it a great BM card.
You're probably naming Estate early for a terminal Gold and additional cycling. But after a few Silver and Gold buys and especially after your first Province it requires good deck tracking. Naming Coppers will be good pretty soon I assume although you risk drawing 3 Estates. But if you somehow manage to trash your starting Estates (best with an opponents' Bishop) then this is really strong, like a much better version of Adventurer for only $5. Big Money with Masquerade/Journeyman comes also to my mind. I don't think you can ignore Cursers with this although you could just name Curse to get value, just because you see your Journeyman less often and I don't think it can overcome a 10VP deficit. I also don't think it's a great Tunnel enabler as you might draw Estates if you name Tunnel and can't discard them out of your hand and is just too unreliable.

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2013, 09:46:22 am »
0

I expected to see something else previewed today...  are we done with previews for the week, then?
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2013, 09:50:53 am »
+2

I expected to see something else previewed today...  are we done with previews for the week, then?

I wouldn't give up hope yet.  It's not that much later in the day than when the others were posted.
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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2013, 09:51:28 am »
+1

I expected to see something else previewed today...  are we done with previews for the week, then?

Patience. For the Jedi it is time to eat as well!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2013, 09:53:38 am »
+3

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Watno

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2013, 09:55:11 am »
0

he said June 3-7.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2013, 10:01:55 am »
+6

Maybe he's still fact checking his Casimir jokes.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2013, 10:09:51 am »
0

I have a lecture in five minutes, and it's in a room where I don't have internet connection :(
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Watno

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2013, 10:10:37 am »
0

phew, it's there.
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tlloyd

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2013, 06:28:11 pm »
0

One of my predictions for Guilds (or at least a card I would like to to see printed) was a card that gave you the choice of any combination of 3 cards and actions. In other words, it could be played as any of the following: +3 actions; +1 card +2 actions; +2 cards +1 action, +3 cards. Maybe something like that will show up, maybe not.

But reading Journeyman made me wish that a similar idea had been incorporated into this card. Imagine if Journeyman gave you the following three choices:

1. Name a card, draw three non-named cards.
2. Name two cards, draw two non-named cards.
3. Name three cards, draw one non-named card.

That card would be amazing! (I think...)  It would allow you (as Journeyman already does) to significantly increase your handsize while avoiding any copies of one particularly undesired card, or (at the other extreme) to search quite effectively for that one card that you need (but not increase your handsize).

How much would you pay for a card like that?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 06:29:42 pm by tlloyd »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2013, 07:00:27 pm »
0

One of my predictions for Guilds (or at least a card I would like to to see printed) was a card that gave you the choice of any combination of 3 cards and actions. In other words, it could be played as any of the following: +3 actions; +1 card +2 actions; +2 cards +1 action, +3 cards. Maybe something like that will show up, maybe not.

But reading Journeyman made me wish that a similar idea had been incorporated into this card. Imagine if Journeyman gave you the following three choices:

1. Name a card, draw three non-named cards.
2. Name two cards, draw two non-named cards.
3. Name three cards, draw one non-named card.

That card would be amazing! (I think...)  It would allow you (as Journeyman already does) to significantly increase your handsize while avoiding any copies of one particularly undesired card, or (at the other extreme) to search quite effectively for that one card that you need (but not increase your handsize).

How much would you pay for a card like that?

$5.
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Powerman

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2013, 09:47:15 pm »
0

One of my predictions for Guilds (or at least a card I would like to to see printed) was a card that gave you the choice of any combination of 3 cards and actions. In other words, it could be played as any of the following: +3 actions; +1 card +2 actions; +2 cards +1 action, +3 cards. Maybe something like that will show up, maybe not.

The problem with that is it's strictly better than Laboratory, so it would have to cost $6.  And that would seem to be a VERY weak $6.
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A man on a mission.

Gveoniz

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2013, 10:03:59 pm »
0

One of my predictions for Guilds (or at least a card I would like to to see printed) was a card that gave you the choice of any combination of 3 cards and actions. In other words, it could be played as any of the following: +3 actions; +1 card +2 actions; +2 cards +1 action, +3 cards. Maybe something like that will show up, maybe not.

The problem with that is it's strictly better than Laboratory, so it would have to cost $6.  And that would seem to be a VERY weak $6.

That is a better noble, but without the 2VP, may still lose to gold though.

liopoil

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2013, 10:09:23 pm »
0

it could be played as any of the following: +3 actions; +1 card +2 actions; +2 cards +1 action, +3 cards. Maybe something like that will show up, maybe not.
Like others have said, that particular card would have to be $6 and would be kinda weak, but I like how it can be a 5, 4, 3, or 2 cost.

2 cards 1 action - lab, 5 cost
3 cards - smithy, 4 cost
1 card 2 actions - village, 3 cost
3 actions - kind of like courtyard, or a slightly better necropolis, would be a 2 cost.
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Tables

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2013, 10:14:37 pm »
0

You could make it quite a bit better but probably not too good for $6 by doing something like:
Do this three times: draw a card OR +1 action

The obvious benefit being you can keep drawing until you decide you want actions instead.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

SirPeebles

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2013, 10:25:27 pm »
0

You could make it quite a bit better but probably not too good for $6 by doing something like:
Do this three times: draw a card OR +1 action

The obvious benefit being you can keep drawing until you decide you want actions instead.

This is nicer wording, also.

I think it would get some play at $6.  It is a very strong addition to engines.  You could make it stronger by adding +$1 as one of the three options.
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Qvist

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #123 on: June 09, 2013, 04:12:10 am »
0

One of my predictions for Guilds (or at least a card I would like to to see printed) was a card that gave you the choice of any combination of 3 cards and actions. In other words, it could be played as any of the following: +3 actions; +1 card +2 actions; +2 cards +1 action, +3 cards. Maybe something like that will show up, maybe not.

But reading Journeyman made me wish that a similar idea had been incorporated into this card. Imagine if Journeyman gave you the following three choices:

1. Name a card, draw three non-named cards.
2. Name two cards, draw two non-named cards.
3. Name three cards, draw one non-named card.

That card would be amazing! (I think...)  It would allow you (as Journeyman already does) to significantly increase your handsize while avoiding any copies of one particularly undesired card, or (at the other extreme) to search quite effectively for that one card that you need (but not increase your handsize).

How much would you pay for a card like that?

See the comments in this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=920.0

I like cards with choices, but too many choices makes them less exciting, it's actually hard to design a well balanced and well priced card with diffferent choices.
Like pointed out this card would cost $6 which makes it a bad card and with $5 it's superior to Laboratory. So you have to find other clauses or variants to make it still exciting.

tlloyd

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #124 on: June 09, 2013, 10:38:34 am »
0

You could make it quite a bit better but probably not too good for $6 by doing something like:
Do this three times: draw a card OR +1 action

The obvious benefit being you can keep drawing until you decide you want actions instead.

That was the idea. I believe WW suggested "Do this thrice:"
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tlloyd

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2013, 11:06:16 am »
0

I found the thread where I suggested this card: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1933.0.

My original formulation was less flexible: "+1 Card. Choose one: +2 Cards, +1 Card and +1 Action, or +2 Actions." Credit to WW for the increased flexibility, and for the word "Thrice."  :D

But I was actually interested in feedback on my powered-up Journeyman. How much stronger would the card be if it was tri-modal as I suggested above? Too strong for $5?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 11:07:30 am by tlloyd »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview #3: Journeyman
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2013, 11:09:39 am »
+1

What can I say - I think thrice is just an awesome, way-too-underused word.
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