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[RD]

The on-buy effect is weak, I mean, a trasher is best bought on turn 1 or 2, we all know that. Some we permit ourselves to get later, like Upgrade/JD, because they simply cost 5, but they're not terminal. So you'll likely get this on t1 or t2 at which points you don't have much money to overspend on it.

Most trashers are best bought on t1-t2 because that's what allows them to start trashing on t3-t4, which is really good. With Doctor, if you overpay on t1 then you are trashing on t1. It seems natural to assume that if t3 trashing is good then t1 trashing must be even better, but given that Copper is still valuable at this stage and you're likely to trash some here, maybe you do as well if you just wait.

We don't actually have much to go on here. We have Mint, which supports my point but of course that's a very extreme case. (As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

Spice Merchant is (in my humble opinion) a notable example of a trasher that is sometimes better to buy on t3 instead of t1, and I think it's a comparison worth making. Why can you get away with buying a strong $4 opener and picking up a Spice Merchant later? First, it's fast enough that t3 isn't simply too late to do any good. Second, it doesn't ruin your current hand, so you don't mind that it's still continuing its work throughout the mid- and even end-game. Doctor spoils your hand a little more than SM but less than most trashers (and arguably makes up for this by filtering). And it can be faster or slower than SM, depending how much you overpay and what cards you name (and also depending on luck).

[liopoil]

(As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

And you can buy it with 5C on T1 and then buy a 3-cost with coin token on T2, which can sometimes be better.

[SirPeebles]

We don't actually have much to go on here. Mint, which supports my point but of course that's a very extreme case. (As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

I think CCCCC for Mint and then CC+token for Silver is probably better.  With a bit of luck, you would Mint a Silver and buy a Silver on turn 3

[popsofctown]

This counters Ghost Ship really hard.  Like, a fifth as hard as Scout does.  Surely harder than Lookout does.

[AJD]

I am hoping that three of them are to make the Baker pile have 13 cards.

...

I get it!

[Titandrake]

The on play effect seems quite good. On turns 3/4, you should have enough information to make a good guess as to what Doctor will see. Trashing 2 cards for 1 dead card in hand is a pretty good deal, but you really need to hit 2 cards. If it only hits 1, well, compare it to Hermit or Lookout.

On buy effect is interesting, but I don't expect it to be super interesting. Will probably be spend $4 on the opening, or spend a ton in the middle of the game to get trashing after building up. I don't see myself spending $5 or $6 on it, unless it's particularly early on in the game, because the longer the game goes the less likely you'll hit a card you want to trash.

[SirPeebles]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

[markusin]

When Donald X. said this was going to be the most complicated expansion, he meant it.

This card is pulling a Mandarin . I think the on play effect is decent for a 3$, albeit terminal. I think the on-gain effect will come in handy the most mid game where you have some engine components already and you want to clear out a lot of junk at once, and you get a playable doctor afterwards. Early on though, I don't know how often I'd want to spend 5$ on a Doctor when other strong 5$ cards abound.

[ConMan]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

I like this, and I suspect it will be, if not a power combo, at least a pet trick. I'd wager Vault will be the best enabler, since it gives a better chance of sorting the wheat from the chaff and then $2 more to trash stuff - you'd be able to hit 3 cards with the Doctor, and if you don't hit your other opener that puts you in a pretty good position.

[popsofctown]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

No no no, you've got it all wrong.  You want to spend 10$ on a Doctor after drawing all the cards in your deck and putting a Tunnel back on top with Mandarin.  Then you get about 3 golds.

[timchen]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

No no no, you've got it all wrong.  You want to spend 10$ on a Doctor after drawing all the cards in your deck and putting a Tunnel back on top with Mandarin.  Then you get about 3 golds.

Interesting thing is you might be able to trash one of the golds and end up to have the same.

[Davio]

When Donald X. said this was going to be the most complicated expansion, he meant it.

This card is pulling a Mandarin . I think the on play effect is decent for a 3$, albeit terminal. I think the on-gain effect will come in handy the most mid game where you have some engine components already and you want to clear out a lot of junk at once, and you get a playable doctor afterwards. Early on though, I don't know how often I'd want to spend 5$ on a Doctor when other strong 5$ cards abound.

The problem with mid-game trashing is that there is already a fair amount of decent cards in your deck. Say it's turn 8 and you haven't trashed anything yet, you'll likely have about 10 "keepable cards" (counting an extra gain/buy here and there) and 10 trashable cards.

So on average 1 out of 2 cards from the top of your deck is trashable. Let's pay $7 for Doctor and drill down 4 cards, we can expect to find 2 bad cards, but we have to start from the top. This has been mentioned before, but let's say it's Gold or Platinum or anything else you'd like to keep. Are you going to discard them hoping to find a lousy Copper or Estate? And if you don't find anything to trash, well, you just wasted 4 coins.

In my view, the overpaying for on-buy trashing is too expensive. By the time you can pay enough for a good trashing, there will be all those good cards in the way! Maaaaaybeee a niche combo will be with Apothecary which tends to set up bad hands after your current one, like a reverse Scout. The on-buy is pretty hard to pull off efficiently.

And this just leaves the on-play effect, which I think is a tad worse, okay, maybe it's roughly even par with the better trashers at $3 and $2, but still nothing to go crazy about.

A card like this does mean there will more often be a trasher available though and that's always good.

[popsofctown]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

No no no, you've got it all wrong.  You want to spend 10$ on a Doctor after drawing all the cards in your deck and putting a Tunnel back on top with Mandarin.  Then you get about 3 golds.

Interesting thing is you might be able to trash one of the golds and end up to have the same.

We'll make this relevant, Forager is on the board.

[ipofanes]

We don't actually have much to go on here. Mint, which supports my point but of course that's a very extreme case. (As a sidenote, it strikes me that Mint gets a lot better in Baker games where you can buy it with CCCC+coin. That's fun.)

I think CCCCC for Mint and then CC+token for Silver is probably better.  With a bit of luck, you would Mint a Silver and buy a Silver on turn 3

I think RD gave the more common example on purpose and took it for granted that you get Mint for CCCCC instead of CCCC+coin if you have the opportunity.

[Octo]

This might have been covered, but I wonder if overpaying is obligatory if you throw down more money than the cost (eg a platinum is all you have in your hand). Now the trashing effect is fine because you can just continually replace the top card if overpaying is obligatory, but you may be in a situation where it triggers a reshuffle to draw that top card and that might be undesirable. Another scenario could be that you only want to overpay by one, but have a gold and silver down.

I suspect it won't be obligatory, but it could make certain situations interesting.

In general about this card: could it be a reasonable-ish response to attacks that clog up your next card or inspect your deck? The on-buy is to speed it up and make it hit at least once when you want it. It's not an ace response, but then it's only a $3 cost card *shrug*.

[ftl]

No, it's not obligatory.

[Davio]

I think you have to specifically mention that you're either overpaying or not in that case and if you do, by how much.

Imagine playing a Venture, drawing 9 other Ventures and a Platinum. Now you have $15 down (okay, you might get something else, but still...).

There will likely be other cards with overpay so if you have Gold+Silver out and you want to buy Doctor for $4 and another $0+ card for $1 you just have to say "I pay X for this and Y for that".

[WanderingWinder]

Apparently you don't have to choose how much you're paying for it until you've bought it, i.e. if you have Haggler in play and buy it, you have the two on-buy effects, you can gain before *or* after you overpay, and it's not until the overpay effect resolves that you have to declare how much you're overpaying (including 0).
This is based on one of Donald's posts from BGG, but it also follows from the straight reading of the rules.

[WanderingWinder]

WW, I really like your analysis of an opening Doctor. I'd like to talk about a mid-game Doctor, because whether or not buying a Doctor for $6 or $10 is a good idea, there will certainly be the perception that it's a good idea and Donald even suggests doing so right in the preview.

Specifically, let's talk about a Curse slog. Now getting to $8 in such a slog is difficult enough (although possibly easier with coin tokens). Do you think it might be worth spending your first $8 or $9 hand on a Doctor, rather than a Province? After all, you're probably going to end up trashing 3 to 4 bad cards and you're getting a card that at least has a pretty good shot at helping to further thin your deck of Curses. I could see that being a good investment.

Perhaps Doctor is what newbies always want Chapel to be—a card that you can buy after your deck is bogged down with Curses to help you clean them out.

No.

Ok, I should explain more. I don't think buying this big in the midgame will hardly ever be the play you make. Usually if you have so much cash, there is something better to buy, but more importantly, if you really want this card, you would have opened with it (or at the very least, gotten one very early, like on the first reshuffle). In the midgame, the play effect is going to be pretty marginal. And if you're playing it for curse clean-up, it sees only 3 cards at once, and... okay, you aren't so impressed by the play effect. But I think Davio has this one right - by the time you can look at like 5 cards, you are only going to be trashing, what, two of them anyway? And you'd just rather have a province. Okay, if you somehow know that the top of your deck has a bunch of bad cards (probably at least three curses or something), then you'd do it. But I suspect that won't come up... almost ever.

We also need to remember that Donald-said-it doesn't mean it's-good-strategy-advice. This isn't to say Donald doesn't know ow to play the game very well. But as he's said before, he doesn't give strategy advice. What that means, for the previews, is that all this stuff shouldn't really be taken as "here's something you want to do", particularly often. It's more "Here's something you *can* do, which might be fun or cool, and in some situations might be useful." And by 'might be useful' means you have some reasons to consider it - it does something good for you - but doesn't necessarily overcome the other options you have.

[WheresMyElephant]

I'd bet midgame Doctor is largely just a tactical decision.  It's not so rare to get an unwelcome $8 on an early turn,  and when you do,  it's because all your good cards are safely in hand.  That's 4-5 junk cards gone,  guaranteed, never mind the Doctor which is hopefully welcome in your deck. Would anyone really argue that's a bad play?

Strategically it would favor cards that tend to suffer from this problem.  Baron and Death Cart come to mind,  and both are quite happy to see some Copper leave town,  as it would happen. A lesser example might be something like Cache. Or you could buy it on your $12 post-Treasure Map turn. (This would let you trash surplus Treasure Maps or cards whose only use was to connect the Treasure Maps,  possibly enabling some TM combos that you would otherwise reject because their end result is ungainly.)

[WheresMyElephant]

Doctor+Market Square: Combo or nombo? On a good day, a hand of $4+MS is better than $4+Silver: you get your Gold plus free trashing and a free Doctor (which combos with MS in the future). On a bad day, you get $3+MS and would probably rather have had the Silver,  and on a really bad day you get $4+MS but you turn up a card you don't want to trash. 

[Davio]

Well, calling Doctor/MS a combo specifically is not much different from calling "any trasher"/MS a combo I think.

I generally like MS and as any trasher is more fun with MS on board, so is Doctor.
And the reverse is also true of course.

[WheresMyElephant]

Well, calling Doctor/MS a combo specifically is not much different from calling "any trasher"/MS a combo I think.

I generally like MS and as any trasher is more fun with MS on board, so is Doctor.
And the reverse is also true of course.

Eh,  maybe.  I guess I'm more wondering whether it would be practical to rely primarily on the on-buy power when you're doing this,  or whether you treat Doctor mostly like a conventional trasher with occasional tactical buys.

Let's take the most extreme case. I open MS/MS and just continue buying MS until I start to get turns of $4+MS, whereupon I buy a Doctor,  and continue in this vein. (I'm probably willing to trash MS and/or Doctors at some point).  Does this work? What if I compromise just slightly by mixing in some Silver, or buying a Doctor at any price on T4 if I haven't yet gotten one?

[shraeye]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

But if I'm in a situation where I can draw everything, I think I'd rather have also bought a Forge and  use it to clear away all junk, instead of asking to already have bought a SecretChamber/Vault-type card, use it to discard, then overpay for a Doctor to clear stuff.

[SirPeebles]

Regarding paying $10 for a Doctor, I think the apt comparison is with using Forge for a major mid-game deck cleansing.  There are some differences.  With Forge, you want to draw all of your junk at once to trash in one go.  With Doctor, you have the generally trickier goal of wanting your good cards in hand with your junk in the discard/draw.  One way of arranging this is by drawing everything, and then tossing the junk with some Secret Chamber variant -- which also doubles as a source of cash for overpaying.  Alternatively, heavy sifting may get you there.  Now, while this seems more difficult to set up than the Forge turn, one advantage is that you do not need to buy the Doctor ahead of time as you do the Forge.  Once you happen to get that lucky turn, you can buy the Doctor.

But if I'm in a situation where I can draw everything, I think I'd rather have also bought a Forge and  use it to clear away all junk, instead of asking to already have bought a SecretChamber/Vault-type card, use it to discard, then overpay for a Doctor to clear stuff.

Not every game has Forge in it.