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[yuma]

 - and agian, why am I backing off mail-mi... again do you want me to stay on a "weak case" (your words here) that has stagnated and died? Yeah, that sounds like a great play for town...

I think that if you were pushing for the mail-mi case, it could have happened.  I've been vocal for my support of it, and I don't think anyone has defended mail-mi.  If this is your reason for dropping that case, it's odd, I think, because there's no indication an nkirbit case would have gotten a better response than a mail-mi case.  And honestly, not expecting a case to get steam is a bad reason for not making it.  I think town should say what they think so we have the most information possible.

I think you are misunderstanding, or rather I didn't explain very well. I have said previously that with day1 cases I try to start them up and see how they go (not so much who joins it, altough a couple of additional votes does help) but rather how the person reacts and if scummy stuff continues to build up. I started the mail-mi case, some people joined and from there it was kinda null and wasn't progressing (either with the votes or with the content of the case) whereas your case... I think has been different. Not only do I think you did some scummy stuff before, I think you have done some scummy stuff afterward. So your case is still progressing and moving and moving in the direction of scum.

[spiritbears]

And, if the random lynch eas a joke why did you never say so until now...no that wad scummy
I know the pushy controlling guns is often town.  But in this case town is so damn weak...I'm pretty sure scum!Yuma is just taking advantage

[spiritbears]

(Was) and (Yuma)

[Voltaire]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

I would like to apologize for this. I feel like it came off a bit personally. If I need to make this case later, I'll be sure to phrase it much more constructively and pro-town.

[yuma]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

That isn't what I am saying. Sorry if I am annoying. But I think what you are reading and what I am saying are very different. And I am not saying am a great player, rather I think I am not a bad player. I try not to tunnel, I try not to be bull headed, I try to see both sides of the picture and allow myself to be reasonably influenced by the opinions of other.

I would love for people to listen to me. Following my lead is up to them. But if you push against me, I am going to push back and if you disagree with me I am going to instigate a dialogue to flesh that out and try and further make my points, but at the same time try and understand yours.

[nkirbit]

Sorry about not getting back on sooner yuma...know you wanted my reasoning first.

First---nk totally deserves to be lynched st this point. Imo Yuma has pushed and pushed hard a really terrible case on nk...to which nk buddies him! Is it fear of the king or what? 

And mc---thèse quickhits are scummy and weird from you

I don't fear Yuma.  I just think there are other players more likely to be scum.  Namely Mail-Mi and mcmc, and to a lesser degree, Robz.

[yuma]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

I would like to apologize for this. I feel like it came off a bit personally. If I need to make this case later, I'll be sure to phrase it much more constructively and pro-town.

no worries, I no I can be annoying to play with sometimes. I do play this game very competitively and want to win and sometimes go too far with stuff.

[yuma]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

He now claims it was a joke. I see absolutely nothing in the original context suggesting it was a joke.

If this doesn't convince anyone else that's fine, I'm not married to this. I simply haven't seen anything more compelling on anyone else.

how about we actually look at the original context so everyone can see and decide for themselves... eh?

Here is the quote:

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

I'll answer that... no, it isn't. Because really mail-mi isn't super scummy. He has done some scummy stuff, but it is pretty slight. While I think he could be scum, this also has the markings of an easy mislynch and who wants to join onto easy mislynches? Scum. Well at least sometimes they do. other times they want to stay far away from them.

This is hard because obviously I don't know mail-mi's alignment and a lot of it is dependent on whether or not he is mafia and whether in fact he is an easy mislynch or not. Mail-mi has been lynched in 75% of the games he has been in as town. He gets lynched. But that stat alone doesn't negate that he has done something scummy.

I am going to look at lio and nkiribt, but mostly at this point I wouldn't really expect either of these players to make "scummy" plays, so I don't know if I will find anything.

I feel like robz has right now... I just don't know what to look for to find mafia in going back and rereading... That is I don't know what I am looking for until I see it... Dsell's case on me in the recent blitz game, WinterSpartan in Samurai's... And right now I haven't seen it.

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

the joke is at the bottom... after I express that I have a plan to look at nkirbit and lio (obviously I don't want to random lynch if I have a plan to do some good old fashioned scum hunting) and further more it is after some frustration posting. Look at the "I feel like robz" part. Because then--and now to an extent--I am frustrated. I don't know how to find mafia. I think I might have found it in nkiribit, but I am not sure.... There just isn't a golden key the unlocks the doors of scum--which is the whole point of the game I know, but it is frustrating for someone who wants to in. So after that frustartion I say "anyone up for a random lynch?" implying that this method might be better than my current scum hunting. I don't push it. I don't say anythign about it. Why? BECAUSE RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. Basically all I am saying is my scum hunting feels like right now as good as random.

If I were serious. I would have created one of those dumb little random lynch lists and done a dice roll and pushed people to actually vote for whomever it was.

And volt... if anyone had agreed to do it, which would have astounded me, I would have jumped all over them, because again RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA!

[spiritbears]

Sorry about not getting back on sooner yuma...know you wanted my reasoning first.

First---nk totally deserves to be lynched st this point. Imo Yuma has pushed and pushed hard a really terrible case on nk...to which nk buddies him! Is it fear of the king or what? 

And mc---thèse quickhits are scummy and weird from you

I don't fear Yuma.  I just think there are other players more likely to be scum.  Namely Mail-Mi and mcmc, and to a lesser degree, Robz.

Well then maybe yumas not tunneling you...but busing instead

[spiritbears]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

He now claims it was a joke. I see absolutely nothing in the original context suggesting it was a joke.

If this doesn't convince anyone else that's fine, I'm not married to this. I simply haven't seen anything more compelling on anyone else.

how about we actually look at the original context so everyone can see and decide for themselves... eh?

Here is the quote:

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

I'll answer that... no, it isn't. Because really mail-mi isn't super scummy. He has done some scummy stuff, but it is pretty slight. While I think he could be scum, this also has the markings of an easy mislynch and who wants to join onto easy mislynches? Scum. Well at least sometimes they do. other times they want to stay far away from them.

This is hard because obviously I don't know mail-mi's alignment and a lot of it is dependent on whether or not he is mafia and whether in fact he is an easy mislynch or not. Mail-mi has been lynched in 75% of the games he has been in as town. He gets lynched. But that stat alone doesn't negate that he has done something scummy.

I am going to look at lio and nkiribt, but mostly at this point I wouldn't really expect either of these players to make "scummy" plays, so I don't know if I will find anything.

I feel like robz has right now... I just don't know what to look for to find mafia in going back and rereading... That is I don't know what I am looking for until I see it... Dsell's case on me in the recent blitz game, WinterSpartan in Samurai's... And right now I haven't seen it.

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

the joke is at the bottom... after I express that I have a plan to look at nkirbit and lio (obviously I don't want to random lynch if I have a plan to do some good old fashioned scum hunting) and further more it is after some frustration posting. Look at the "I feel like robz" part. Because then--and now to an extent--I am frustrated. I don't know how to find mafia. I think I might have found it in nkiribit, but I am not sure.... There just isn't a golden key the unlocks the doors of scum--which is the whole point of the game I know, but it is frustrating for someone who wants to in. So after that frustartion I say "anyone up for a random lynch?" implying that this method might be better than my current scum hunting. I don't push it. I don't say anythign about it. Why? BECAUSE RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. Basically all I am saying is my scum hunting feels like right now as good as random.

If I were serious. I would have created one of those dumb little random lynch lists and done a dice roll and pushed people to actually vote for whomever it was.

And volt... if anyone had agreed to do it, which would have astounded me, I would have jumped all over them, because again RANDOM LYNCHING IS A HORRIBLE IDEA!

If it wasn't a home then why the "we haven't tried that in ages".  You may not have been serious.  But it eas definitely not a joke.

[spiritbears]

And if you're so unconfident in your scumhunting why the big push to get us to all fall in line.  You're flailing yuma

[yuma]

because it is so bad that we haven't tried it in ages...

[nkirbit]

SB.. Why not a townie falsely accusing another townie?

[yuma]

And if you're so unconfident in your scumhunting why the big push to get us to all fall in line.  You're flailing yuma

then vote for me and lynch me and you will be rid of me once and for all.

[spiritbears]

SB.. Why not a townie falsely accusing another townie?

Because Yuma isn't town

[spiritbears]

It's so easy to claim you didn't mean it now Yuma. And soooo easy to say you "would have jumped" on anyone that took it up....it requires no proof or support st all on your part.  Way way too convenient

[spiritbears]

You are so blinded nk. Like I said.  I have no desire to fight against your lynch at this point.

[nkirbit]

I don't think I'm obligated to find every player who is in support of lynching me scummy.  Look, Yuma could easily be scum, and if I survive into day 2 and find a good case myself or someone presents a case that persuades me, I'll happily vote for him.  But I just don't see a compelling case at this point.

[Voltaire]

You are so blinded nk. Like I said.  I have no desire to fight against your lynch at this point.

I think you can cause his lynch. Pretty sure nkirbit is at L-1 and your vote isn't on him right now.

I don't think you should. But you don't have to be passive if you're willing to hammer him.

Vote count?

[yuma]

And if you're so unconfident in your scumhunting why the big push to get us to all fall in line.  You're flailing yuma

Ok... spiritbears, I know you can't know this right now but right now you are taking everything I say and forcing it into scummy. This is on you, not on me.

I am unconfident in my scumhunting. I am. Everyone should be at this point, because there hasn't been anyone who has said "Yes! This is scum! I am sure of it!" about something that was very obvious and compelling. Again... only twice in the 18+ games I have played have I ever felt really, really sure about a lynch day1. Only twice! And even then I had reservations, but you have to put those aside if you ever want to get anywhere in this game as a townie. So that point is correct.

But it has nothing to do with your second point... pushing you all to get in line. All I have done is express my opinion and asked people to respond to it. If they respond with something I disagree with I will respond back. But I am not pushing anyone to vote for nkiribt aside from writing a case... and every vote has been because people read my case and agreed with it, but not because I have bullied or pressured anyone to vote that way. The only people I am trying to get to fall into line are you and voltaire because you are voting for me! And I know that you are wrong.

I am not flailing. You just have a really strong bias right now that makes everything I do see scummy to you. Your vision is clouded. Part of that is my fault, the rest is yours. I don't blame you for it, but I know I am town, and I know you are wrong. So I am trying to convince you that you are wrong--not that I expect much success with this post, but hey, you never know...

[Voltaire]

I will say this - I do not see sb's case on yuma one bit.

[spiritbears]

You are so blinded nk. Like I said.  I have no desire to fight against your lynch at this point.

I think you can cause his lynch. Pretty sure nkirbit is at L-1 and your vote isn't on him right now.

I don't think you should. But you don't have to be passive if you're willing to hammer him.

Vote count?

It's not just his unwillingness to take on Yuma....it's his unwillingness to push back against the weak case At ALL
So fine...
You wanted this nk...have it
vote nk

[yuma]

unoffical vote count (which I am sure someone will say, "yuma put this together! it is probably inaccurate!" If it is, sorry, I did my best:

mail-mi (1): nkirbit
Robz888 (1): chairs
nkirbit (4): mail-mi, Robz888, mcmc, yuma (L-1)
yuma (1): voltaire, spiritbears

Not voting: liopoil

[yuma]

and we have a hammer, I think...

[nkirbit]

Look, I had made my case, SB.  I had said who I thought were better lynches, I had said why I thought Yuma's case was bad.  I didn't have anything new I wanted to say.

Reads, scum to town:

Mcmc
Mail-Mi
Robz
Yuma
Lio
SB
Voltaire

I'm forgetting someone, but they're probably in the middle since they don't bring up much thoughts.