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[Voltaire]

I hate this buddy yuma to death thing.

It's...not a thing? Who the hell is buddying with yuma? Also after my re-read I'm back to vote: yuma. Same reasons as before, just more certain. Didn't see anything to change my mind. The unvote was for an abundance of caution.

Some very weird posts lately.

[nkirbit]

Well, Lio, maybe.  And like I said, if Yuma (or any other player) who were active were to do anything obviously scummy, I would be happy to vote for them.

For me, the Yuma case just seems to be "Geez, he's really hard to read, and I can't at all be sure if he's scum or town, so he could easily be scum!"  Well, yeah, sure, but I don't want to vote for him for that reason when I think we can do better.

[Voltaire]

Well, Lio, maybe.  And like I said, if Yuma (or any other player) who were active were to do anything obviously scummy, I would be happy to vote for them.

For me, the Yuma case just seems to be "Geez, he's really hard to read, and I can't at all be sure if he's scum or town, so he could easily be scum!"  Well, yeah, sure, but I don't want to vote for him for that reason when I think we can do better.

That. Is. Not. My. Reason. That is yuma's scummy spin of my reason. Please go back and re-read. Yuma, in my opinion, is subtly offering up reasons to start wagons to see if they catch on. That's scummy, and the simplest reason for my vote.

I am not liking this distortion of my case on yuma at all.

[Robz888]

I just haven't been around, vote: nrkbit I actually think 8 people stating votes and not doing it makes him way more likely to be scum. Scum would have jumped on it. Also volt(I think it was volt) just have town reads and fos on the same people very close I a row. Super scummy

Yes. Yes.

[mcmcsalot]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

Yup here's the post, why the town read on me?

[nkirbit]

Voltaire, would you mind recapping your case for me then?  I guess I just don't understand what it is at this point, then.

[Voltaire]

So yeah. 8.

I declare this wagon on a townie. I now am viewing mcmc and nkirbit as town. I return to vote: yuma as my strongest read.

That's nonsense!! there's no way that nkirbit's partner should he be scum is going to say that he isn't going to vote for nkirbit. Infact, what I said makes sense. If nkirbit is scum, from a neutral perspective, I could very well be his partner. You absolutely cannot declare it a wagon on a townie because of that.

Well, yes. That's why I'll FoS: chairs, mcmc, and lio for saying it but not voting it (perhaps hoping that I'd hammer).

I had a post with this FoS written, then decided it went without saying, then saw your post, then decided to say it.

Yup here's the post, why the town read on me?

It was entirely based on your VT claim/not JK claim. Then more things happened. Then I had a different read on you. But still town. Just less so.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, would you mind recapping your case for me then?  I guess I just don't understand what it is at this point, then.

Fine. Give me a bit if you want quotes.

[chairs]

FWIW, I am heading out of town tomorrow, so I will be MIA for quite a while following my departure from work today (probably won't get to post for at least 24 hours from this post, other than posts I make from now til end of workday).  Once I get into Chicago and settled, I'll try to find a way to get online and post.

[liopoil]

OK, I think I finally figured out what I was trying to say!

"Traditional" scum placement on a D1 town wagon is 1 on, 1 off, right? So assuming 1 scum is already on the wagon, FoS those three for setting themselves up to be off-wagon if needed.

...that may not actually make sense. But it is what was in my head when I replied to your post.

"traditional" maybe, but really, scum can do whatever they want.

I hate this buddy yuma to death thing.

It's...not a thing? Who the hell is buddying with yuma?

dunno, was responding to robz's post about buddying Yuma. I personally haven't noticed it, but I do this Yuma gets to much credit for big posts and stuff.

I too am curious to see what you have on yuma.

ugh, I'm having second thoughts on nkirbit. I just don't know.

[Voltaire]

Alright, My Case on Yuma. Which isn't a slam dunk, and to which I am not married. But clarification has been requested.

Note that I shortened some quotes with the missing stuff indicated by [stuff] or [some sort of super-short summary of what's missing]. I did this for readability. Look at the original quote if you think the missing stuff is relevant.

I get robz's frustration and I won't criticize it because I know how much he likes being mafia. However... I do wonder if it is possible that he is "playing it up" a bit. That is.... I wonder if he is mafia again and is faking the frustration and anger of no longer being mafia... Obviously not anything concrete because we don't know his current alignment, but his reaction to all of this does make me wonder...

PPE: New postz.
chairs.... his vote is the most suspicious.

This is why he thinks mcmc is suspicious:

First off: mcmcsalot seems to be making a VT claim in what I had quoted; as there's no reason to make a VT claim ever, it seems reasonable to believe that he is more likely than not scum.  As this is Day 1, my normal strategy (with folks that I play with IRL) is to head towards a no-lynch, but as I've been advised this is a terrible idea in practice by folks who have played this game more often than myself, I felt that as the one who the argument could be made most strongly for, he'd have my vote.  That being said, forum Mafia's a bit of a different beast than I'm used to (we're making decisions in days, rather than minutes) so I can see the justification/argument made for an Unvote until we can attempt to gather more evidence.

Lots of text... He starts off talking about mcmc, but doens't expalin why it makes him more likely to be scum but in the end says very little of the paragraph about mcmc.  I have done this before as mafia. Where I start out with a read and end up moving the topic of conversation away from that read within the paragraph... why? Because I actually don't have anything there and it is hard to make stuff up... so I just talk and talk and hope that no one notices that I am no longer talking about mcmc anymore...

and then there is this:

Well that's too quick of a wagon for him to be scum. Although that was a suspicious post.

This screams to me of mail-mi trying to get on the town side of mcmc's future flip (I think he will flip town, I think mail-mi perhaps knows he will flip town) but at the same time slightly advocating the votes and the lynch by admitting that it was a suspicious post.. (it wasn't...)

so right now I am most suspicious of mail-mi and chairs...

I'll vote for either... vote: mail-mi

yuma: first to raise Robz suspicion, first to raise chairs suspicion (99% sure here - correct me if I'm wrong) Robz and sb vote chairs immediately.

I state my first scum read on yuma. Then this happens:

I have a scumread on yuma. He's pushed Robz without voting and chairs without voting, right? I see that as yuma gently trying to start wagons.

So you are suspicious of me for doing the exact same thing you are doing here? Being suspicious and not voting? Except for one crucial detail... I am voting. I am voting for mail-mi. Who I think is more likely to be scummy at this juncture than Robz--I didn't push for his wagon at all, I asked what people thought about his reaction to the game starting--and just as scummy as chairs, except that I have had experience with town and scum mail-mi and know him a bit better and don't know chairs at all...

Whereas you aren't voting for anyone... so who is scummy for this alleged scummy behavior? You or me? In this context I would in fact say it is you... but I don't think it is scummy behavior. I think it is normal town behavior to probe and try and create conversation... so no FOS but shame: voltaire for trying to inhibit scum hunting.

PPE: although now I see that you have voted... but my point still stands above.

Lots more stuff happens. Yuma attempts to convince everyone of his case on mail-mi.

Has a weird read about mcmc, I don't remember mcmc being clumsy in this game...

Actually I agree that mcmc has been clumsy, he sorta-claimed VT, then clarified he was claiming not-JK.

Though I do agree mail-mi has been meh overall. He's another wagon I don't like at this point.

This is strange. That is all.

(also it is worth noting that I think yuma's case on mail-mi is weak, so that's 3 total from my point of view)

is it weird that I am becoming more suspicious of the two players who are on the mail-mi wagon with me? (lio and nkirbit)

[yuma explains]

Anyone up for a random lynch? We haven't tried that in ages...

Yuma backs off mail-mi a bit, and brings up random lynch. Seriously. No-one pointed this out at the time. Mega-awful-super-terrible anti-town play.

nkirbit:

he voted for mcmc pretty opportunistically for the VT claim.

Unvoted when mcmc got to L-1 and never really looked back at it.

He has slowly eased into the mail-mi vote starting off with a "I am not sure about this yuma..." to questioning mail-mi and then a "mail-mi has been kinda scummy" to an actual vote.

He has also been suspicious of chairs. Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

He has been open with his reads. yuma and sb town, voltaire, mcmc (now he is a null read!) and lio null.

[stuff about lio]

Of the two I find nkirbit the scummier. He is in a position where I would expect scum to be, kinda in the middle, not lurking not being extremely vocal. He has been on the three main "easy" wagons in mcmc, chairs and mail-mi but has stayed away from the more controversial votes (yuma, robz). I still think mail-mi is suspicious, but I am going to try out a vote: nkirbit

And the nkirbit case, which is the biggest most recent development.

Also this

I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches.

Yet mail-mi was your vote - was it who joined that wagon that had you realize your case on mail-mi was bad? What does that say about your initial reasons?

mcmc, please do post soon (I know it's Tuesday, yadayadayada). You're the only one I'm treating as obvtown for now, so I'd like to know where you stand.

I don't think my case on mail-mi was necessarily bad. It is just that I don't know if mail-mi is actually scum or just scummy. And I won't "know" until he flips, obviously, but even then I am not confident in my case in the way I am sometimes more confident. This lack of confidence makes me look around and wonder if he is actually scum...

if I were to quote a part of my post that says what I am really thinking it wouldn't be what you quoted it would be

Right now if this were a bastard game and everyone were town, I would say that chairs and mail-mi would be considered the easy mislynches. However, like I said before I don't know their alignments and if they actually are "easy mislynches" but it does make me more wary of them.

Obviously this isn't a bastard game and everyone isn't town. But right now the little bit of scumminess I see in mail-mi isn't as striking to me as nkirbits being on the three "easy" lynches right now.

No, I don't.  You all seem to have made your conclusion.  You seem downright convinced that you should be doing something other than lynching scummy players.

i wish you would stop overthinking and just lynch the players who have been scummy D1, but whatever.

I admit I have some pretty major reservations. But that is kinda normal for day1. unvote for at least a bit until I get back in about 20 minutes just to stop anything crazy from happening.

Reservations about nkirbit. Major ones. Whurhgt?

So this post is a mess. That's why I don't like mega-quote posts. This might actually be the first one I've ever made in a mafia game, ever.

tl;dr I had a case-ish against yuma for offering up robz/chairs while voting mail-mi, he backs off mail-mi/onto nkirbit, has major reservations about nkirbit.

There's no smoking gun here. Just enough for my vote.

I do not like the weird posts we've gotten recently from mcmc/Robz/lio.

[Voltaire]

OK, I think I finally figured out what I was trying to say!

"Traditional" scum placement on a D1 town wagon is 1 on, 1 off, right? So assuming 1 scum is already on the wagon, FoS those three for setting themselves up to be off-wagon if needed.

...that may not actually make sense. But it is what was in my head when I replied to your post.

"traditional" maybe, but really, scum can do whatever they want.

Yup yup. Hence FoS, that is all, moving on, etc.

[yuma]

response to voltaire... not including quotes cause hard to read etc...

- I was the first to raise suspicion of Robz. I see no reason to find suspicion here for pointing out that Robz could be overexaggerating his emotions. None. I didn't vote, i just noted it and said it was something to consider. And still a possibility I think.

 - I was also the first to raise suspicion on chairs. But I didn't vote there. I voted for mail-mi. Why? Because I found his actions to be scummier... maybe you want me to vote for people I don't find scummy a la you:

And I myself have an established meta of voting for my top town reads (well, it's more complicated than that, but that's the best summary) under the theory that scum know playing scummy is obvscum so they play towny. That's why I've landed on you so far.

which I honestly think is the worst strategy you could ever have. Just WIFOM yourself until you get dizzy...

 - I am not sure what your point is about my response... all you say is "this happens." So what? What does that signify. I think my response was perfectly legitimate.

 - And again I acknowledge the case on mail-mi is weak. I have said this before and I will say it again. Early day1 cases are always weak, and not always do they serve the ultimate purpose of finding scum. Sometimes someone gets really lucky and hits on scum right off the bat. But you can't tell until you flesh it out and try it out and see what other people think. And as the mail-mi case fleshed out, I saw that it was weak and going to stay weak and saw that there was a better case on nkiribt.

 - Ummm. Random lynch. Obv joke... because what do I say in the part above it... "I'll take a look at nkirbit and lio" That was my real suggestion, not the random lynch. Thanks for snipping the real content and leaving the joke...

 - and agian, why am I backing off mail-mi... again do you want me to stay on a "weak case" (your words here) that has stagnated and died? Yeah, that sounds like a great play for town...

- nkribit case has merit and I still think it does. I have reservations. Obviously I have reservations! It is flipping day1! Only twice in my entire mafia career have I ever been certain day1 about a lynch. Only twice! Of course I am going to have bloody reservations, especially when the entire town has either voted or said they were willing to vote. And you better believe I will unvote if I have those reservations and people have said they are willing to vote before I think we have fleshed out this conversation!

Goodness, you unvoted me when I had 2 votes remember?

The unvote was for an abundance of caution.

So it is only scummy when I am cautious, but when you do it, it isn't?

You say there is no smoking gun here. There isn't, but there isn't even a gun. All you do is post a bunch of quotes and say I am voting, but you dont' explain why it is scummy. You just post quotes and leave it at that. Because what I am doing isn't scummy. What I am doing is scum hunting and trying to find a lynch that is correct. I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

Anyways... mcmc brings up a good point in that people have said they would vote nkirbit, but didn't. This is very true. words are wind. actions speak volumes. I still think he is the best lynch option. Far superior to me and I don't see anyone else at the moment that is any better. And his buddying to me does seem like an attempt to sway me away from revoting him.

vote: nkirbit that is L-1.

[Voltaire]

I think we are all just so used to town being bullheaded and stubborn in being "100% certain" that they have found mafia that we don't know what to do when we see someone who actually is uncertain and is trying to find it, but willing to make mistakes and "weak" cases along the way to get there...

With these sort of statements, all I read is you stating you're a great player, as both town and scum, so we should just listen to you and follow your lead and you're in control. Oh, and never mind if maybe you're scum, just follow along.

Which doesn't make you scum, it just makes you very annoying to play with.

[Voltaire]

And we'll see what happens with nkirbit. I'm not convinced and won't be re-voting at this point.

[nkirbit]

I could hardly vote yuma after what I said in #475.  It would be wildly inconsistent, and the last thing I want to do when I'm under the gun is be inconsistent.

That being said, I don't see anything in Voltaire's case.  Yeah, it could be scum!yuma doing these things, and it would make sense, but town!Yuma doing these things makes sense as well!  The fact that both make sense isn't a reason for me to believe one narrative over the other!

Mail-Mi is still the best lynch, in my opinion.  I've continually pointed out scummy things about his actions this game, have re-read him, and still think he's by a decent amount the scummiest player.  My only reservation about the case is that it's mail-mi, and not someone else, but I still think he's scummy.

[nkirbit]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

[Voltaire]

Basically, Voltaire, if you start with the assumption Yuma=Scum, and read things the way you're presenting them, they do make sense.  But if I start with the assumption Yuma=town and read things, they make just as much sense.  And I don't have a good reason to start with the assumption Yuma=scum.

The random voting thing was the oddest thing there, but I'm not convinced it's anything.  Why did you bring that up, Yuma?

He now claims it was a joke. I see absolutely nothing in the original context suggesting it was a joke.

If this doesn't convince anyone else that's fine, I'm not married to this. I simply haven't seen anything more compelling on anyone else.

[liopoil]

I think it was clearly a joke because why would anyone seriously suggest random lynch?

I don't know what to make of nkirbit and his wagon. I need to re-read him. I found voltaire's case somewhat lackluster. I kinda would still want lynch mail-mi or mcmc, but I'll consider nkirbit more, I've been kinda inconsistant in the thread and with myself on him, I need to figure out what I think once and for all.

[liopoil]

also, Vote count please

[Voltaire]

I think it was clearly a joke because why would anyone seriously suggest random lynch?

Only possible explanation is to see if scum bites.

[nkirbit]

lol but really I like robz case on chairs and yumas case on nk, I'm thinking they are town and are making some good cases. I noticed the thing with you and yuma and your suggestion that yuma was making the same case he did as scum, I do 100% know yuma to be a similar scum player to me(which is why I think he often catches me) and he will make the same cases as town and scum. Its something scummy he has seen and thats decent for day one.

This is mcmc when he comes back.  At this point, I'm at L-2, but all the momentum is indicating that my lynch is forthcoming.  Mcmc states that he "really likes" yuma's case on me, but doesn't vote.  Why not?

I just haven't been around, vote: nrkbit I actually think 8 people stating votes and not doing it makes him way more likely to be scum. Scum would have jumped on it. Also volt(I think it was volt) just have town reads and fos on the same people very close I a row. Super scummy

This is after some of the momentum has died on me.  At this point, he votes.

Mcmc has clearly contributed to getting a lot of the momentum back on my wagon.  In terms of wagon analysis, he's the scummiest from my point of view.  It's odd that he didn't vote earlier, and may have been because he thought there was so much momentum he could be off-wagon, but later realized that wasn't the case so pushed for it.  I'd still rather lynch mail-mi, I think, but if people aren't behind that I'd be okay with a mcmc lynch.

[Voltaire]

Mcmc has clearly contributed to getting a lot of the momentum back on my wagon.  In terms of wagon analysis, he's the scummiest from my point of view.  It's odd that he didn't vote earlier, and may have been because he thought there was so much momentum he could be off-wagon, but later realized that wasn't the case so pushed for it.  I'd still rather lynch mail-mi, I think, but if people aren't behind that I'd be okay with a mcmc lynch.

The only reason I am not voting some people at the moment is Lynch Mafia Not Scum. I totally agree that that post by mcmc was weird and scummy.

Robz has disappeared.

[nkirbit]

 - and agian, why am I backing off mail-mi... again do you want me to stay on a "weak case" (your words here) that has stagnated and died? Yeah, that sounds like a great play for town...

I think that if you were pushing for the mail-mi case, it could have happened.  I've been vocal for my support of it, and I don't think anyone has defended mail-mi.  If this is your reason for dropping that case, it's odd, I think, because there's no indication an nkirbit case would have gotten a better response than a mail-mi case.  And honestly, not expecting a case to get steam is a bad reason for not making it.  I think town should say what they think so we have the most information possible.

[spiritbears]

Sorry about not getting back on sooner yuma...know you wanted my reasoning first.

First---nk totally deserves to be lynched st this point. Imo Yuma has pushed and pushed hard a really terrible case on nk...to which nk buddies him! Is it fear of the king or what? 

And mc---thèse quickhits are scummy and weird from you