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Author Topic: Preview #1: Baker  (Read 94857 times)

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Gveoniz

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2013, 12:09:17 pm »
0

So, with the extra $1 available in the opening 2 turns, can Celestial Chameleon now empty the supply by turn 3?

I'm pretty sure it will be not the case. The coins provide you balance against bad luck, and the challenges of CC always have perfect shuffle luck. Maybe it's just more "realistic" to do that with the $1 extra, if you've only 99% luck :)
I think the opening is more important here, with 4/4 or 2/6 opening (and other guild card?) thing may go a lot faster.

soulnet

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2013, 12:12:54 pm »
0

Its too bad that a Victory card counting coin tokens should be an Action/Victory that gives tokens to ensure you can get them (or maybe changes the rules allowing to get them in some other way). But if this is the main mechanic of the expansion, the Victory card counting the tokens would be pretty cool.
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DG

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2013, 12:14:24 pm »
+2

Quote
This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

Are you sure that all the simulator bots are getting the +1 coin at the start of the game? That's the sort of margin of victory you'd see
from starting with a silver in your deck instead of one of your coppers.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2013, 12:15:01 pm »
+1

Donald said on BGG that you can't spend coin tokens for BM.

Yeah, just saw that, looks like I was wrong!

Quote from: DonaldX
You may not use coin tokens when buying a card with Black Market. You do start with a coin token if Baker is in the Black Market deck. Which is silly but well it's consistent with how other cards with setup function from the Black Market deck.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2013, 12:15:32 pm »
0

"I think you're going to have trouble amassing Bakers and 30 coin tokens if you're spending all of your $5 buys on what are essentially empty cantrips (because you're saving your tokens for your megaturn)."

Maybe you'd like to think about an Altar/hamlet opening?

Let's play it through roughly.
Turn 3/4: Trash something for baker, buy a baker (and that's lucky)
Turn 5/6: Play two bakers, buy one more baker, gain another baker with Altar
Turn 7/8: Play 4 bakers, gain 3 more
Gain a province every turn from here on.

Doesn't sound too bad.

Sure, it sounds great when Altar is in the game. In the vast majority of games, it's probably not a great strategy.
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brokoli

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #105 on: June 03, 2013, 12:15:37 pm »
0

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).
I think it's quite powerful actually, probably a lot better than market and treasury. From my experience, very, very often you have more money than you really need, especially for gold or province.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #106 on: June 03, 2013, 12:17:03 pm »
0

And you can still do something you can't usually do with peddler, you can spend 30 coins a turn even you cannot play 30 bakers a turn. It is probably too slow for CC's challenge though.

Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #107 on: June 03, 2013, 12:19:44 pm »
+1

Its too bad that a Victory card counting coin tokens should be an Action/Victory that gives tokens to ensure you can get them (or maybe changes the rules allowing to get them in some other way). But if this is the main mechanic of the expansion, the Victory card counting the tokens would be pretty cool.
I doubt that will be in. It would make coin tokens kinda like VP tokens, and you wouldn't spend them any more.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #108 on: June 03, 2013, 12:21:41 pm »
0

Its too bad that a Victory card counting coin tokens should be an Action/Victory that gives tokens to ensure you can get them (or maybe changes the rules allowing to get them in some other way). But if this is the main mechanic of the expansion, the Victory card counting the tokens would be pretty cool.
I doubt that will be in. It would make coin tokens kinda like VP tokens, and you wouldn't spend them any more.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's more likely that we'll see a Victory card that you can spend extra for to get an effect of some sort.
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Robz888

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2013, 12:22:36 pm »
+35

And now, the moment everybody was waiting for: But How Does It Combo With Scout?

Just as Scout was merely a great card, rather than an elite card, prior to the release of Dark Ages, Guilds seems poised to catapult everyone's favorite deck reorder-er to number 1 status.

With Baker around, the elusive $4/$4 double Scout opening is finally possible. This will help scoop up all your Estates into your current hand. Play Scout, grab the Estates, play another Scout, grab more of the Estates. Combo alert!

Buying Baker will also mitigate a common mid-game dilemma. Often times, you'll find yourself with $7 in hand, and you say to yourself, "Man, if I just had $1 more coin, I could... buy two Scouts." But now the savvy player who plans ahead can save a coin for just such a purpose. Boom, bet your opponents didn't see that coming.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #110 on: June 03, 2013, 12:26:32 pm »
0

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

So I'm guessing there will be one more five cost card that starts with a "V" and does something with coin tokens, hence "CV Guild". Not sure what HV means (besides the card name starting with an "V"), but NH might mean a nonterminal and TP a terminal?

Warrior
Given that CB and CV were the only spoiled cards with C in their names (and given that we already know butcher uses coins) I suspect they're just random codes with no meaning.
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gman314

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2013, 12:35:31 pm »
+3

And now, the moment everybody was waiting for: But How Does It Combo With Scout?

Just as Scout was merely a great card, rather than an elite card, prior to the release of Dark Ages, Guilds seems poised to catapult everyone's favorite deck reorder-er to number 1 status.

With Baker around, the elusive $4/$4 double Scout opening is finally possible. This will help scoop up all your Estates into your current hand. Play Scout, grab the Estates, play another Scout, grab more of the Estates. Combo alert!

Buying Baker will also mitigate a common mid-game dilemma. Often times, you'll find yourself with $7 in hand, and you say to yourself, "Man, if I just had $1 more coin, I could... buy two Scouts." But now the savvy player who plans ahead can save a coin for just such a purpose. Boom, bet your opponents didn't see that coming.

They most definitely didn't!
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clb

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #112 on: June 03, 2013, 01:30:48 pm »
+1

A use of Baker that has been hinted at, but not overtly stated is for money-poor decks. Whether that is multi-player Thief or Pirate Ship, or if you are doing a Festival/Library deck, a Scrying Pool deck, or any other situation where you want to spend $, but don't want treasures in your deck. Seems Baker fits there delightfully.
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gman314

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #113 on: June 03, 2013, 01:32:57 pm »
0

A use of Baker that has been hinted at, but not overtly stated is for money-poor decks. Whether that is multi-player Thief or Pirate Ship, or if you are doing a Festival/Library deck, a Scrying Pool deck, or any other situation where you want to spend $, but don't want treasures in your deck. Seems Baker fits there delightfully.

But does it do so in a way that Peddler or Treasure or Market or Bazaar doesn't? I'm not sure it plays so differently in that role.
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Titandrake

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #114 on: June 03, 2013, 02:30:46 pm »
+1

Money smoothing is pretty strong; see how Courtyard-BM is better than Smithy-BM. It doesn't smooth out as much as Courtyard, and it relies on having the actions to play Baker, but overall it seems pretty strong.

Should be okay in BM, since in Big Money the key breakpoints are $3, $6, and $8. So, odds are you'll have 1 or 2 coin tokens lying around to jump up to the next breakpoint. Not sure how it works in engines. I want to say it'll be good, but the key point of any engine is that it lets you scale in consistency and buying power at the same time. In order to do that, you'll need all the money you can early on to buy more engine parts. The more buys you have, the more money you can spend each turn, so you'll never have a big store of coin tokens. I think coin tokens will only be useful once the engine is pretty consistent.

As for a coin token fueled mega-turn, it's probably not too likely. If you can draw your deck every turn, you can store +$1 each turn per Baker, or you could buy a Silver instead of a Baker for $2 each turn since you draw the Silver every turn anyways. So, you're storing ~half the money you could have each turn, which sounds a bit too slow.
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2013, 02:38:24 pm »
0

I doubt that will be in. It would make coin tokens kinda like VP tokens, and you wouldn't spend them any more.

I don't think you won't want to spend it ever (especially if getting to 1 coin = 1 VP requires several copies of the Victory card) because of the same reason you don't buy Coppers with Goons in play at the beginning or you trash your estates: Keeping the coin for the points later may make your deck worse by not allowing you to buy better cards (for instance, more bakers to get even more coins). Getting $4 and not spending a coin on a new Baker seems a pretty bad idea, if the game is not really close to the end or there is a really good $4.
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Dsell

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #116 on: June 03, 2013, 02:42:13 pm »
0

I've only read the first couple pages but it seems to me like people could be underestimating Baker a lot: coin tokens are one of the themes of the expansion, so I would not be surprised if there are combos or other cards that make this one stronger, at least in games with other guilds cards.
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #117 on: June 03, 2013, 02:47:53 pm »
0

BTW, a bit of meta-thought: if Baker is a cantrip, I'm going to make the wild guess that it has to be good for engines, at least for some engines. If it were meant for BM or slogs, it would probably be better as a terminal or something providing other resources (for BM) or extra Buys (for slogs). Slogs especially hate $5 cards, because they are hard to buy for the $4 green slogs (Silk Road and Gardens) and they compete with the key cards in Duchy/Duke or Rebuild.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #118 on: June 03, 2013, 02:52:23 pm »
0

if you play BM+X you often find yourself with $5 and don't want another X, so you'd buy silver. Then you can buy Baker instead.

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #119 on: June 03, 2013, 02:56:33 pm »
0

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.
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whaleyland

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2013, 03:00:31 pm »
0

Also the expansion sybol are compasses.. That's a bit surprising I think. I see scientists incoming, and probably an architect or Builder.

I don't think Baker will be a common opening. It's not a power card, and I don't think I'd spent my coin token for it. Chapel/Baker might be good though, allowing you to save up while trashing down.

The symbol is the Masonic compass, not your usual compass. It probably just is something RGG thought could represent "Guilds", even though the Masons were more of a society than a guild.
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platykurtic

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2013, 03:17:55 pm »
0

As for a coin token fueled mega-turn, it's probably not too likely. If you can draw your deck every turn, you can store +$1 each turn per Baker, or you could buy a Silver instead of a Baker for $2 each turn since you draw the Silver every turn anyways. So, you're storing ~half the money you could have each turn, which sounds a bit too slow.

Yeah, I suspect you'd need TR/KC to really make that work. It's no going to be a common combo since you also need +buy, other money to buy Bakers with, and some trashing or an engine to get it all going. Baker/KC/Market/Chapel does it, but that's a four card combo. But when it does hit...
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2013, 03:19:45 pm »
+1

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.

I wouldn't call that a slog


Also I think Baker is quite a weak KC target in relation to must other cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2013, 04:12:09 pm »
+2

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #124 on: June 03, 2013, 04:14:30 pm »
+4

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
Iso should have them by now, right?





oh, wait
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