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Author Topic: Preview #1: Baker  (Read 94848 times)

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Lekkit

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:40 am »
+1

I can only imagine the horror of tracking the size of your discard pile so you can know how much your Phil Stones are worth before playing them. *mind explodes*

And as anyone who has played with Phil Stone knows, it's not that hard. After you've played your first one, just remember how many cards were in your deck total at that time, and add 1 for every buy or gain you do.
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shark_bait

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:54 am »
0

I think you'd be crazy to rank Market above this in most cases. If both are available, I see very few scenarios where I want more than one Market, and probably not early; besides that one +Buy, it's Bakers all the way down.

You can turn a ton of $4 hands into $5 hands, or get a Province with a crappy hand, or guarantee consistency in Duchy dancing, or pull a double-Province in a board that doesn't really lend itself to them. With Market, you just get to buy an extra thing this turn if you have the money.

I guess I was looking at this through a lens of a particular deck archetype.  Specifically, types of decks where Baker would be a poor addition, i.e.  Engines and it would be mediocre in BM.  It's uselessness in engines is self explanatory and in BM, you want good draw.  As an action, it runs the risk of being drawn dead and competes for the price of many stellar $5 BM draw enablers like CR, Vault, Embassy, etc. 

It would shine in a slog and I suppose I was giving that game type less merit as it doesn't have the same type of intricacy as a well polished engine.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2013, 10:45:25 am »
0

I actually predicted that coin tokens would work the way they did, but everyone else thought that you needed a mat for them to work like that.

No, I was with you there. I figured that since the tokens weren't for a specific card, they wouldn't need a mat.
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DStu

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2013, 10:46:25 am »
0

I think people are underestimating the power of this card. Already, the setup rule really changes things, and I do think being able to save coin tokens can be very crucial, more crucial than some realize. And, yes, in engines, this card can work out nicely. So far, I am loving this expansion. And, I was one of the people who thought it would be possible to get tokens to spend even without mats.
Yes, it can work out nicely, but it also costs $5. And I doubt you want to mass it (e.g. over Market) in engines.  If you need the flexibility to save up say $4 or more, you are probably doing something wrong. Note probably, there are certainly scenarios where this is helpful.  But in the direct comparison to Market you are given up potential for 3piling, this costs most be considered.  And, Market is already not the strongest card in engines, as you need lots of $1s to get somewhere.

I think there is more potential in BigMoney, or the "half-engines" that ST mentioned, maybe slogs, but +1+1+1 is not that strong in Slogs, and $5 is expensive there.  Biggest influence is certainly the setup instruction, so I definitely agree with "So far, I am loving this expansion", even if the Bakery might not get bought that much.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2013, 10:46:38 am »
0

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?
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Hertz_Doughnut

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2013, 10:47:44 am »
+2

Well the most important question is: How does this affect Dominion Battle Royale?

The card itself looks too slow when compared to all the other great cantrips you could get... especially vs highway, governor, and menagerie.  I doubt anyone would buy it.

However, the +1 coin for each player at the start of the game definitely messes with established Battle-Royale deck setup.  My normal $4/$3 opening (Envoy/Steward) is now a $5/$3... (Torturer/Steward?).  Council Room?  Governor?  Witch?  Cultist?

You could even take a $4/$3 and open Mint/Fool's Gold...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2013, 10:48:01 am »
+1

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

Maybe CBguild? For Coins Baker? That's just a wild guess, of course.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2013, 10:49:04 am »
+7

Some simulator results (the sim will always use up coin tokens if it means a better purchase can be made):

This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

A Vault bot beats it 50-40.
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Lekkit

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2013, 10:49:53 am »
+2

In BM+terminal non-draw, it will be good. Smoothing out your coins will make 7's less frequent. Also, it may just be me, but when I try to build an engine I often find myself with as dilemma like "I want to get two Wandering Minstrels this turn, but I could only get to 7. So I have to go for a Minstrel/Watchtower (or possibly Silver), something that might hurt my deck in the long run. And also, money clumping is a thing. Hit 17 on one turn, save one for later when you'll most likely (because the shuffle gods say so) find yourself with 15.
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DStu

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2013, 10:51:04 am »
0

Some simulator results (the sim will always use up coin tokens if it means a better purchase can be made):

This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

A Vault bot beats it 50-40.
But it has the option to add a terminal.  So probably that is one of the stronger Cantrip+terminal-BigMoney.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2013, 10:54:20 am »
0

Yeah, i agree with Lekkit that it's main use will be terminal non-draw BM. You still won't get it over gold there, I think.

It doesn't really help with your engine problem, though, because there you would have to pick one up other the WM / terminal draw 5 first.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2013, 10:55:48 am »
0

I assume if it's in the Black Market deck you still get the starting token?
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2013, 10:55:59 am »
0

Some simulator results (the sim will always use up coin tokens if it means a better purchase can be made):

This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

A Vault bot beats it 50-40.
But it has the option to add a terminal.  So probably that is one of the stronger Cantrip+terminal-BigMoney.

Yeah, I'd like to see results on Sea Hag / Baker, Mountebank / Baker and Militia / Baker.
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Emeric

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:04 am »
+2

Baker + Nomad camp :

Without baker the nomad camp bought in turn 1 give you 40% to buy a $5 card in turn 2 !

With baker (and this nicely offered coin), you may buy a nomad camp for $3 and the coin. In this case you have 20% to have $6 and 80% to have $5 in turn 2, if you buy a nomad camp for $4 saving your coin, you have 40% to have $6 and 60% to have $5 using your coin in turn 2.

Nomad Camp + Gold is I think a good start !
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AdamH

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:11 am »
+2

I can only imagine the horror of tracking the size of your discard pile so you can know how much your Phil Stones are worth before playing them. *mind explodes*

And as anyone who has played with Phil Stone knows, it's not that hard. After you've played your first one, just remember how many cards were in your deck total at that time, and add 1 for every buy or gain you do.

You seem to overestimate my ability to count.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:08:18 am by AdamH »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:28 am »
0

I assume if it's in the Black Market deck you still get the starting token?

Sounds right to me
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2013, 10:57:22 am »
0

It really, really seems like an investment card.  I mean, how often would you pay $5 just for a cantrip that might help you later?  But it's essentially a Peddler whose +$ you can shuffle over to later turns if you like, which is strictly better, so it kind of has to cost $5...  are we assuming that coin tokens are intended to be functionally infinite like victory tokens, or is there a limit to how many you can have at one time?  I'm also very keen to KC some Bakers.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2013, 10:59:37 am »
0

With every sinle new expansion I'm frightened that a new mechanic could destroy the game balance, but Donald, it's always a pleasure  ;D

You can even open FV/Wharf, or Death Cart/Death Cart could also be sweet, since it almost ensure DC+ruins
But don't forget that you've spent the free coin now and the others can use the $1 extra as a strong benefit (with $7 in endgame or $5 in BM-games)
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2013, 11:00:35 am »
+1

I think they will be unlimited, but I don't think stockpiling them for a mega turn is a good idea.

Also it's not strictly better with Black market.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2013, 11:02:14 am »
+2

I think in more than 95% of the games you'll wanna use the coin token for one of the first 2 buys.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2013, 11:10:01 am »
0

I think in more than 95% of the games you'll wanna use the coin token for one of the first 2 buys.

Sounds about right
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2013, 11:14:42 am »
0

the other 5% would be, if theres no power $5 available and no $4 that you want to have as much as possible. And of course, kind of Mint/Fool's Gold and you already have 5/2
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Gveoniz

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2013, 11:16:34 am »
+1

What would directly open double Jack be?

but the special would really made some puzzle possible, I think.

Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2013, 11:17:08 am »
0

Potentially aimining for an early forge as well.
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Warrior

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2013, 11:22:46 am »
+1

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

So I'm guessing there will be one more five cost card that starts with a "V" and does something with coin tokens, hence "CV Guild". Not sure what HV means (besides the card name starting with an "V"), but NH might mean a nonterminal and TP a terminal?

Warrior
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