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Author Topic: Preview #1: Baker  (Read 95213 times)

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Watno

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Preview #1: Baker
« on: June 03, 2013, 09:44:29 am »
+16

Quote from: Donald X.
Casimir III, greatest of the Polish kings, came into power in 1333. He took a country in ruins, and brought prosperity to it, while doubling its size, in part by claiming the Duchy of Halicz. Since I am previewing Dominion cards though, that's all pretty irrelevant.

Guilds is the 8th Dominion expansion. Man. That's a bunch of expansions. People always ask about a 9th expansion, and I always say, well who knows, but there are good reasons for stopping. You can go read them in some other thread, I am busy previewing a card here, I will get to it any second now. Guilds itself only exists because I needed a small expansion to go in-between Hinterlands and Dark Ages. Base Cards ended up showing up there instead, but I'd already made Guilds, so why not release it.

Guilds has two main mechanics, as you can see in the terse sentences that accompany the flavor paragraph. One of them is coin tokens. And here today is a card that uses them.

The coin tokens are those metal things in Seaside and Prosperity. Guilds has cards that give you some, and then they're yours, they don't belong to some Pirates or anything. The significance of a coin token is, in your buy phase, before buying cards, you can cash in any number of coin tokens for +$1 each. That's it, that's all there is to know. They're money you can spend later. The turn you play Baker, you get a coin token; you can cash it in that turn, but you can also hold onto it.

Guilds is the most skill-based expansion, and coin tokens are a big part of that. There you are with $5 some turn; you could buy a card for $5, or maybe a cheaper one. There are a certain number of options. Coin tokens increase your options; with just one coin token, you can now consider cashing it in and getting a card for $6 instead.

Baker has another special twist, which is, it gives players a coin token at the start of the game. You only get one coin token then, not one per Baker in the pile, why is anyone even asking that. You get the coin token even though no-one has a Baker yet and possibly no-one will end up buying one. It's a free sample.

That starting coin token drastically shakes up the opening two turns. You can get a $3 and a $5 no matter what your starting draw is. If you got $2/$5, you also have the option of $2/$6; if you got $3/$4, you have the option of $4/$4. You can also save that coin token for later and live with your draw.

That's the preview, I'm here all week.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 09:49:32 am »
0

Card text please for all of us who can't access bgg site from our work place.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 09:51:27 am »
+1

Baker -$5
+1 card
+1 action
Take a coin token.
---------------
setup: Each player takes a Coin token.

Mr Anderson

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 09:53:12 am »
0

I love the introduction  ;D

I guess this card has a really high effect on the opening Buys, you are guaranteed to be able to buy Witch/Mountebank/Whatever in the first turn (of course, only with Baker in the Setup). This changes much, but it balances these boards (the person with 5/2 does not win automatically). Otherwise, I like the concept of coin tokens, also an interesting way to avoid to have 7$ all the time. This card seems to be a nice peddler variant.
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DStu

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 09:54:22 am »
0

On play a pretty standard Peddler+ for $5, nevertheless interesting and probably also powerful.

The extra coin at start is probably game changing.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 09:59:45 am »
0

Coin tokens work exactly like I predicted. (well, except you can't spend them during your action phase).

The setup effect of this is pretty cool. And there we were thinking that Hinterlands messed with the opening turns.

I think the coin you get at the beginning will be very useful for opening 3/5, which will make for pretty awesome stuff. Could be pretty bad if one player gets to open 2/6 with Goons on the board though, but i think that's the only case where it increases swinginess. Also it will probably help emptying the supply on turn 3, especially if there's another opening modifying effect in this expansion.

The card itself didn't seem that strong to me on first sight, but then i realized it's not a nonterminal copper, but a cantrip copper. WTF that's better than Peddler (not strictly though, Black Market edge case here^^). And wasn't the consensus that that would be a $4 i f it wasn't to boring. Then I realized it doesn't cost $3 as I had thought at first, but $5. That's the right prize point I think. It's not that good then. a $5 peddler where you can save the coin for later. I think the really useful thing about those coin tokens is not that you stockpile them to save up for a big purchase, but rather that it works a bit like the putting back from courtyard (which actually makes it stronger than smithy in some cases). It allows you to distribute money better around turns. Instead of having $7 twice, you can have one $6 and one $8 turn.  I like this
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Emeric

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 10:02:37 am »
0

I love the introduction  ;D

I guess this card has a really high effect on the opening Buys, you are guaranteed to be able to buy Witch/Mountebank/Whatever in the first turn (of course, only with Baker in the Setup). This changes much, but it balances these boards (the person with 5/2 does not win automatically). Otherwise, I like the concept of coin tokens, also an interesting way to avoid to have 7$ all the time. This card seems to be a nice peddler variant.

The person with 5/2 will open Goons + Hamlet (or other $2 village), and will win ;)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 10:03:18 am »
0

I wonder how often you'll find yourself opening Baker.
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 10:06:25 am »
0

Could be pretty bad if one player gets to open 2/6 with Goons on the board though,

Opening Goons/Embargo can be pretty game wrapping.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 10:08:28 am »
+2

Also the expansion sybol are compasses.. That's a bit surprising I think. I see scientists incoming, and probably an architect or Builder.

I don't think Baker will be a common opening. It's not a power card, and I don't think I'd spent my coin token for it. Chapel/Baker might be good though, allowing you to save up while trashing down.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 10:08:41 am »
+4

Could be pretty bad if one player gets to open 2/6 with Goons on the board though,

Opening Goons/Embargo can be pretty game wrapping.

As in, this game is in the bag?
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 10:09:25 am »
+1

depends on the board.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 10:10:24 am »
0

I don't think Baker will be a common opening. It's not a power card, and I don't think I'd spent my coin token for it. Chapel/Baker might be good though, allowing you to save up while trashing down.

Yeah I think you're right. Just interesting that (edge cases aside) it's the first $5 card that you have guaranteed access to in the first two turns. I think people will buy it just for that reason.
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soulnet

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 10:11:45 am »
0

As in, this game is in the bag?

No, but getting the Goons early will make it difficult for the other player to get one, and if they are embargoed, it will make it more difficult to make a good engine around it so the advantage you make at the beginning will end up mattering more. I think Goons/Chapel may be even more important, because Chapel/Militia is already a pretty good opening.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2013, 10:12:43 am »
+1

Seems like it would combo nicely with Hermit/Madman.
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SCSN

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 10:13:19 am »
+6

Baker/Chapel sounds very powerful indeed.

I'm also delighted that it's finally possible to open Adventurer!
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 10:14:33 am »
0

I don't see the Hermit combo really
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 10:14:43 am »
+1

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 10:14:57 am »
0

I'm also delighted that it's finally possible to open Adventurer!

Or Peddler.
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DStu

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 10:15:07 am »
+1

I wonder how often you'll find yourself opening Baker.
I doubt it is a good opener.  At 5/3 with Baker/Silver, it's worth $21/11 the first shuffle, so that's even worse than Silver, and there are usually enough cards that are better than Silver for the first turn.  That it's non-terminal is not that much of a help for the first shuffle, because most interesting cards at $3 are non-terminal, too.  It will be stonger than Silver eventually (usually pretty fast), but the first shuffles are the important ones, and you usually have better options at $5.  I guess like Market/Lab/HuntingParty you are happier to pick it up in the second shuffle and have some terminal $5 for the first shuffle, which usually act  more instantly...
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2013, 10:15:12 am »
+1

Chapel/Baker sounds craaazy.  Get a big string of Bakers, gain like 5 tokens a turn, cash them all in with some megaturn (assuming you have Buys).  Love the setup rule.  Cool card.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2013, 10:16:29 am »
0

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).

I'd say you'd probably save it for a $3 instead of a $4 more often than not.
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RTT

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 10:16:55 am »
+1

The nice thing about that card is that it will even effect the game if nobody buys it.

the setup rule is just spectacular ;)
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2013, 10:17:04 am »
0

I don't think it's particularily good for mega-turns. I think it takes too long to set up.
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Watno

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 10:18:50 am »
0

I'm also quite confident that my Gypsy Camp will be in the expansion (+2 actions, + 1 coin token)
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DStu

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 10:19:45 am »
0

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).

I would guess it is a pretty bad in engines.  Spending $5 for a $1-cantrip there is usually not what you want, you often can't gain them via Workshop variants, and $1 does not help much for megaturning.  Saving your money is not that much of a help because you can manage your income quite consistently anyway.
In BigMoney/Slogs I think that's more of a help, smoothing the $7s or $9s in BigMoney, and smoothing the $3,$4,$5,$6 (whatever you wanted) in slogs might be interesting...
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RTT

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 10:20:09 am »
0

I'm also quite confident that my Gypsy Camp will be in the expansion (+2 actions, + 1 coin token)
with the additional setup rule so if baker and Gypsy Camp is on the board you can open 7$/2$
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2013, 10:21:09 am »
+1

I hope we'll also see a card (possibly a Treasure?) that says something like "at clean-up, get one coin token per unspent coin".
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 10:21:49 am »
+2

You have to play coin tokens before playing treasures.

What will my Venture reveal? How many coin tokens do I need to play? AAAHHH!!!!!

I can only imagine the horror of tracking the size of your discard pile so you can know how much your Phil Stones are worth before playing them. *mind explodes*
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 10:22:05 am »
+9

We can now have 4/4 opening!

Treasure Map / Treasure Map?
Sea Hag / Sea Hag?
Scout / Scout?
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 10:22:28 am »
0

I'm also quite confident that my Gypsy Camp will be in the expansion (+2 actions, + 1 coin token)
with the additional setup rule so if baker and Gypsy Camp is on the board you can open 7$/2$

King's Court/Cellar FTW!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 10:22:41 am »
+1

I think the opportunity cost is too high in engines. It will mostly be bought when you have $5 and one buy, and would usually buy a silver.

Wow, Treasure Map/Treasure Map is pretty good.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 10:24:39 am »
0

procession feast =)
risky opening but if it hits its great.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2013, 10:27:21 am »
+1

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).

I think you'd be crazy to rank Market above this in most cases. If both are available, I see very few scenarios where I want more than one Market, and probably not early; besides that one +Buy, it's Bakers all the way down.

You can turn a ton of $4 hands into $5 hands, or get a Province with a crappy hand, or guarantee consistency in Duchy dancing, or pull a double-Province in a board that doesn't really lend itself to them. With Market, you just get to buy an extra thing this turn if you have the money.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 10:28:53 am by Stealth Tomato »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2013, 10:29:13 am »
+4

We can now have 4/4 opening!

Treasure Map / Treasure Map?
Sea Hag / Sea Hag?
Scout / Scout?

Oh I hadn't thought of that. You can now open with two of the cards which are specifically designed not to allow you to open with two of.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2013, 10:31:27 am »
+1

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).

I think you'd be crazy to rank Market above this in most cases. If both are available, I see very few scenarios where I want more than one Market, and probably not early; besides that one +Buy, it's Bakers all the way down.
But I think Markets usually are not good cards either, especially if you already some of them.

And in an engine, I probably prefer Markets over most Bakers.  Yes, $1 flexibility may be useful, but so is the possibility of buying 8 Estates.  If I don't have the need for saving up the coins, it's a Peddler for $5, and that is overprized.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2013, 10:32:02 am »
+1

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).

I think you'd be crazy to rank Market above this in most cases. If both are available, I see very few scenarios where I want more than one Market, and probably not early; besides that one +Buy, it's Bakers all the way down.

You can turn a ton of $4 hands into $5 hands, or get a Province with a crappy hand, or guarantee consistency in Duchy dancing, or pull a double-Province in a board that doesn't really lend itself to them. With Market, you just get to buy an extra thing this turn if you have the money.

But you might want to buy Market in angine deck, because it provides a crucial +buy. As said, I don't see Baker in any engine deck.
And if you have an engine, there are other cards at $5 or lower, even if you already have eniugh buys.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 10:33:03 am by Watno »
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Grujah

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2013, 10:32:21 am »
+1

Also the expansion sybol are compasses.. That's a bit surprising I think. I see scientists incoming, and probably an architect or Builder.

I think compass is actually a shout-out to freemasonry, which is/started as a guild.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2013, 10:33:03 am »
+2

Posted this to BGG, I see no reason not to post the same content here, even though some of it people have already talked about.

The card itself isn't the most exciting, but they can't all be, right? $5 cantrip +coin with a bonus is a fairly normal thing (Market, Treasury, Highway, Junk Dealer, Bazaar etc.), so this fits in there. I'd say it might be about average with those, but I'd really need to see just how valuable saving the coin is. Normally, early buys matter more than later ones, so you probably want to use that coin token soon-ish. Then again, there's lots of possible tricks you can do with them to know just how good it is.

What this card really shakes up is the openings. 5/2 openings just got even better, with a 6/2 opening being a thing. Hello, turn 1 Gold. Or Gold/Chapel or the like. Of course, 4/3 can keep up with 5/3 openings as Donald Mentioned, and occasionally, a 4/4 opening will be a very strong thing. Normally though, I expect 5/3 to be better. If there's good $5's on the board like Witch, Mountebank, Wharf or the like, 5/3 might even be better than 6/2, actually. Either way, one thing is for certain: This card's mere presence is going to lead to faster games on average.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2013, 10:33:41 am »
+2

opening with Alter may be good?

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2013, 10:33:52 am »
+6

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).

I think you'd be crazy to rank Market above this in most cases. If both are available, I see very few scenarios where I want more than one Market, and probably not early; besides that one +Buy, it's Bakers all the way down.
But I think Markets usually are not good cards either, especially if you already some of them.

And in an engine, I probably prefer Markets over most Bakers.  Yes, $1 flexibility may be useful, but so is the possibility of buying 8 Estates.  If I don't have the need for saving up the coins, it's a Peddler for $5, and that is overprized.

Yes, but I think people chronically overestimate the number of scenarios where consistent full deck-draw is easily achievable. More common are decks that draw ~50% of their cards, where the income smoothing becomes HUGE.

The number of times I've won by buying eight Estates is dwarfed by the number of times I've won by buying my 5th Province. (e: and in many of those cases, I would have likely won anyway had I bought two Provinces instead)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 10:39:58 am by Stealth Tomato »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2013, 10:36:33 am »
+1

opening with Alter may be good?

Oh, I missed that one. Yeah that one looks good as well. And you're guaranteed to have a non-terminal $5 on the board.

I guess this expansion might also contain a good opening $6.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2013, 10:37:18 am »
+3

You have to play coin tokens before playing treasures.

What will my Venture reveal? How many coin tokens do I need to play? AAAHHH!!!!!

I can only imagine the horror of tracking the size of your discard pile so you can know how much your Phil Stones are worth before playing them. *mind explodes*

He didn't say that.

"in your buy phase, before buying cards, you can cash in any number of coin tokens for +$1 each"

That's the same as the rule for Treasure cards (you must play them before buying).


I hope we'll also see a card (possibly a Treasure?) that says something like "at clean-up, get one coin token per unspent coin".

I feel like the balanced cost for this would be about $7, and it would still be overpowered in Colony games.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2013, 10:39:15 am »
0

I'm hoping we see more cards that change the rules. Anyone care to venture a guess at how often the initial coin token will be used in the first two turns? I'm going to say about 80%, with most of the remaining 20% being because you want to grab an early $6 or $7, or grab a guaranteed Province (in a Tournament game) or Platinum as quickly as possible. Although in the latter two cases opening Baker/$3 instead of $4/$3 might be quicker.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2013, 10:39:48 am »
+1

opening with Alter may be good?

Oh, I missed that one. Yeah that one looks good as well. And you're guaranteed to have a non-terminal $5 on the board.

I guess this expansion might also contain a good opening $6.

Even opening Gold might be a great idea, it will really boost your economy and you might be able to skip Silver.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2013, 10:40:16 am »
+4

I think people are underestimating the power of this card. Already, the setup rule really changes things, and I do think being able to save coin tokens can be very crucial, more crucial than some realize. And, yes, in engines, this card can work out nicely. So far, I am loving this expansion. And, I was one of the people who thought it would be possible to get tokens to spend even without mats.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2013, 10:40:20 am »
0

Coin tokens work exactly like I predicted. (well, except you can't spend them during your action phase).

Bwa ha! You've got quite the selective memory! As I recall, you were SO CERTAIN the coins would be spent during your Action phase to boost other cards. Spending them during your Buy phase for $1 a pop is how everybody else predicted they would work.

I guess this expansion might also contain a good opening $6.

There are no $6 cards in the set, although there could easily be cheaper cards that allow you to spend $6 on them for a bonus.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2013, 10:41:46 am »
0

I hope we'll also see a card (possibly a Treasure?) that says something like "at clean-up, get one coin token per unspent coin".

I feel like the balanced cost for this would be about $7, and it would still be overpowered in Colony games.

It could have a limit on how many coin tokens you can get.

Also excepting a coin token salvager (maybe giving half the cost in coin tokens?)

@LastFootnote: Oh yeah, i totally forgot we had the cost distribution.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 10:42:55 am by Watno »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2013, 10:41:59 am »
0

Coin tokens work exactly like I predicted. (well, except you can't spend them during your action phase).

Bwa ha! You've got quite the selective memory! As I recall, you were SO CERTAIN the coins would be spent during your Action phase to boost other cards. Spending them during your Buy phase for $1 a pop is how everybody else predicted they would work.

I guess this expansion might also contain a good opening $6.

There are no $6 cards in the set, although there could easily be cheaper cards that allow you to spend $6 on them for a bonus.

I actually predicted that coin tokens would work the way they did, but everyone else thought that you needed a mat for them to work like that.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:27 am »
0

I think people are underestimating the power of this card. Already, the setup rule really changes things, and I do think being able to save coin tokens can be very crucial, more crucial than some realize. And, yes, in engines, this card can work out nicely. So far, I am loving this expansion. And, I was one of the people who thought it would be possible to get tokens to spend even without mats.

Agreed. In games where you don't have spammable +buy, the ability to bank money until you can use it is really big. Potentially a really good card in slogs too.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:40 am »
+1

I can only imagine the horror of tracking the size of your discard pile so you can know how much your Phil Stones are worth before playing them. *mind explodes*

And as anyone who has played with Phil Stone knows, it's not that hard. After you've played your first one, just remember how many cards were in your deck total at that time, and add 1 for every buy or gain you do.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:54 am »
0

I think you'd be crazy to rank Market above this in most cases. If both are available, I see very few scenarios where I want more than one Market, and probably not early; besides that one +Buy, it's Bakers all the way down.

You can turn a ton of $4 hands into $5 hands, or get a Province with a crappy hand, or guarantee consistency in Duchy dancing, or pull a double-Province in a board that doesn't really lend itself to them. With Market, you just get to buy an extra thing this turn if you have the money.

I guess I was looking at this through a lens of a particular deck archetype.  Specifically, types of decks where Baker would be a poor addition, i.e.  Engines and it would be mediocre in BM.  It's uselessness in engines is self explanatory and in BM, you want good draw.  As an action, it runs the risk of being drawn dead and competes for the price of many stellar $5 BM draw enablers like CR, Vault, Embassy, etc. 

It would shine in a slog and I suppose I was giving that game type less merit as it doesn't have the same type of intricacy as a well polished engine.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2013, 10:45:25 am »
0

I actually predicted that coin tokens would work the way they did, but everyone else thought that you needed a mat for them to work like that.

No, I was with you there. I figured that since the tokens weren't for a specific card, they wouldn't need a mat.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2013, 10:46:25 am »
0

I think people are underestimating the power of this card. Already, the setup rule really changes things, and I do think being able to save coin tokens can be very crucial, more crucial than some realize. And, yes, in engines, this card can work out nicely. So far, I am loving this expansion. And, I was one of the people who thought it would be possible to get tokens to spend even without mats.
Yes, it can work out nicely, but it also costs $5. And I doubt you want to mass it (e.g. over Market) in engines.  If you need the flexibility to save up say $4 or more, you are probably doing something wrong. Note probably, there are certainly scenarios where this is helpful.  But in the direct comparison to Market you are given up potential for 3piling, this costs most be considered.  And, Market is already not the strongest card in engines, as you need lots of $1s to get somewhere.

I think there is more potential in BigMoney, or the "half-engines" that ST mentioned, maybe slogs, but +1+1+1 is not that strong in Slogs, and $5 is expensive there.  Biggest influence is certainly the setup instruction, so I definitely agree with "So far, I am loving this expansion", even if the Bakery might not get bought that much.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2013, 10:46:38 am »
0

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2013, 10:47:44 am »
+2

Well the most important question is: How does this affect Dominion Battle Royale?

The card itself looks too slow when compared to all the other great cantrips you could get... especially vs highway, governor, and menagerie.  I doubt anyone would buy it.

However, the +1 coin for each player at the start of the game definitely messes with established Battle-Royale deck setup.  My normal $4/$3 opening (Envoy/Steward) is now a $5/$3... (Torturer/Steward?).  Council Room?  Governor?  Witch?  Cultist?

You could even take a $4/$3 and open Mint/Fool's Gold...
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2013, 10:48:01 am »
+1

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

Maybe CBguild? For Coins Baker? That's just a wild guess, of course.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2013, 10:49:04 am »
+7

Some simulator results (the sim will always use up coin tokens if it means a better purchase can be made):

This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

A Vault bot beats it 50-40.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2013, 10:49:53 am »
+2

In BM+terminal non-draw, it will be good. Smoothing out your coins will make 7's less frequent. Also, it may just be me, but when I try to build an engine I often find myself with as dilemma like "I want to get two Wandering Minstrels this turn, but I could only get to 7. So I have to go for a Minstrel/Watchtower (or possibly Silver), something that might hurt my deck in the long run. And also, money clumping is a thing. Hit 17 on one turn, save one for later when you'll most likely (because the shuffle gods say so) find yourself with 15.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2013, 10:51:04 am »
0

Some simulator results (the sim will always use up coin tokens if it means a better purchase can be made):

This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

A Vault bot beats it 50-40.
But it has the option to add a terminal.  So probably that is one of the stronger Cantrip+terminal-BigMoney.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2013, 10:54:20 am »
0

Yeah, i agree with Lekkit that it's main use will be terminal non-draw BM. You still won't get it over gold there, I think.

It doesn't really help with your engine problem, though, because there you would have to pick one up other the WM / terminal draw 5 first.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2013, 10:55:48 am »
0

I assume if it's in the Black Market deck you still get the starting token?
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2013, 10:55:59 am »
0

Some simulator results (the sim will always use up coin tokens if it means a better purchase can be made):

This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

A Vault bot beats it 50-40.
But it has the option to add a terminal.  So probably that is one of the stronger Cantrip+terminal-BigMoney.

Yeah, I'd like to see results on Sea Hag / Baker, Mountebank / Baker and Militia / Baker.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:04 am »
+2

Baker + Nomad camp :

Without baker the nomad camp bought in turn 1 give you 40% to buy a $5 card in turn 2 !

With baker (and this nicely offered coin), you may buy a nomad camp for $3 and the coin. In this case you have 20% to have $6 and 80% to have $5 in turn 2, if you buy a nomad camp for $4 saving your coin, you have 40% to have $6 and 60% to have $5 using your coin in turn 2.

Nomad Camp + Gold is I think a good start !
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:11 am »
+2

I can only imagine the horror of tracking the size of your discard pile so you can know how much your Phil Stones are worth before playing them. *mind explodes*

And as anyone who has played with Phil Stone knows, it's not that hard. After you've played your first one, just remember how many cards were in your deck total at that time, and add 1 for every buy or gain you do.

You seem to overestimate my ability to count.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:08:18 am by AdamH »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:28 am »
0

I assume if it's in the Black Market deck you still get the starting token?

Sounds right to me
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2013, 10:57:22 am »
0

It really, really seems like an investment card.  I mean, how often would you pay $5 just for a cantrip that might help you later?  But it's essentially a Peddler whose +$ you can shuffle over to later turns if you like, which is strictly better, so it kind of has to cost $5...  are we assuming that coin tokens are intended to be functionally infinite like victory tokens, or is there a limit to how many you can have at one time?  I'm also very keen to KC some Bakers.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2013, 10:59:37 am »
0

With every sinle new expansion I'm frightened that a new mechanic could destroy the game balance, but Donald, it's always a pleasure  ;D

You can even open FV/Wharf, or Death Cart/Death Cart could also be sweet, since it almost ensure DC+ruins
But don't forget that you've spent the free coin now and the others can use the $1 extra as a strong benefit (with $7 in endgame or $5 in BM-games)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2013, 11:00:35 am »
+1

I think they will be unlimited, but I don't think stockpiling them for a mega turn is a good idea.

Also it's not strictly better with Black market.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2013, 11:02:14 am »
+2

I think in more than 95% of the games you'll wanna use the coin token for one of the first 2 buys.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2013, 11:10:01 am »
0

I think in more than 95% of the games you'll wanna use the coin token for one of the first 2 buys.

Sounds about right
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2013, 11:14:42 am »
0

the other 5% would be, if theres no power $5 available and no $4 that you want to have as much as possible. And of course, kind of Mint/Fool's Gold and you already have 5/2
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2013, 11:16:34 am »
+1

What would directly open double Jack be?

but the special would really made some puzzle possible, I think.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2013, 11:17:08 am »
0

Potentially aimining for an early forge as well.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2013, 11:22:46 am »
+1

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

So I'm guessing there will be one more five cost card that starts with a "V" and does something with coin tokens, hence "CV Guild". Not sure what HV means (besides the card name starting with an "V"), but NH might mean a nonterminal and TP a terminal?

Warrior
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2013, 11:23:43 am »
+1

One case where it's very good to save the coin is with Familiar, as now only 3xEstate/Shelter + Potion + Copper won't get you one. Same with Alchemist if you really want that card. Also in lots of situations with Ambassador.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2013, 11:41:35 am »
0

Really glad that this is how the tokens work. I remember testing this Farming fan expansion and it had 'Fruit Tokens' that worked exactly like this and it was so, so fun.

My initial reaction is that the starting coin token will break the game, but Donald will probably prove me wrong.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2013, 11:45:17 am »
0

I hope we'll also see a card (possibly a Treasure?) that says something like "at clean-up, get one coin token per unspent coin".

I am quite positive about that. The number of times you can underspend to reap some later benefit is limited, I think. Every coin unspent is dead capital and a snowflake outside the snowball gathering momentum. So there should be some incentive to save coins for later.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2013, 11:46:20 am »
+3

I'm surprised that so many people are comparing this card to a market. In money terms I'd look at it as some sort of reverse treasury, where you'd get options to back load your spending with these +1 coins whereas the treasury front loads your income with +1 coin per turn. For an engine deck you might want to amass 30 coins and then splash out with your multiple buys on a final turn to clean the province pile. In a guilds heavy kingdom you could use the baker to draw tokens and other cards to spend the tokens.

The baker might be a bit like the fortress in Dark Ages. A simple looking card but a cornerstone of the expansion set with many funky uses.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2013, 11:49:20 am »
+1

Super-excited about the previews, but sad that Donald didn't post it here himself... has he officially left us in favor of BGG? :'(
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2013, 11:49:30 am »
+2

I'm surprised that so many people are comparing this card to a market. In money terms I'd look at it as some sort of reverse treasury, where you'd get options to back load your spending with these +1 coins whereas the treasury front loads your income with +1 coin per turn. For an engine deck you might want to amass 30 coins and then splash out with your multiple buys on a final turn to clean the province pile. In a guilds heavy kingdom you could use the baker to draw tokens and other cards to spend the tokens.

The baker might be a bit like the fortress in Dark Ages. A simple looking card but a cornerstone of the expansion set with many funky uses.

Yeah, but you would probably be better off spending those 30 coins to buy engine parts, instead of saving them all for the last turn.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2013, 11:50:18 am »
+2

I think in more than 95% of the games you'll wanna use the coin token for one of the first 2 buys.

I'm going to go out on a limb and call it 99%.  Consider the possibilities:

(1) You draw $2/$5.  You can go $3/$5 or $2/$6.  Opening with Gold or Goons is going to be pretty powerful most of the time.  If there's a $5 that you'd want more than Gold (Wharf, Mountebank, etc.), well, you'd rather open Silver/$5 than $2/$5 most of the time.

The only major exceptions I can see are Hamlet/$5 and Chapel/$5, where the $5 is better than Gold.

(2) You draw $3/$4.  You can go $3/$5 or $4/$4.  If there's a power $4 on the board (Sea Hag, Tournament, etc.) then you want two of them on the first two turns, of course.  If there's no power $4, then Silver/$5 is almost always going to be better than Silver/$4: the worst possible $5 on the board is Baker, which we've already established is at least as good as Peddler (someone else can be edge-case patrol for this).

The major exception I see is Double Ambassador, but we know that Amb/$4 Cantrip (Caravan, Tournament) is usually more powerful than Double Amb, and Baker is at least as good as Caravan.

--------

While I was writing this, SCSN pointed out that Alchemist and Familiar are another set of exceptions by themselves, which I suppose should have been obvious.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2013, 11:51:35 am »
+1

I'd just like to say that, man, it's nice to be excited about Dominion again. Maybe I'll actually play it soon too!  :)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2013, 11:51:58 am »
0

The baker might be a bit like the fortress in Dark Ages. A simple looking card but a cornerstone of the expansion set with many funky uses.

The problem is, that 99% on f.ds don't know what the other cards of Guilds are like...maybe you are one of the other 1%? :)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2013, 11:52:33 am »
0

For an engine deck you might want to amass 30 coins and then splash out with your multiple buys on a final turn to clean the province pile.

I think you're going to have trouble amassing Bakers and 30 coin tokens if you're spending all of your $5 buys on what are essentially empty cantrips (because you're saving your tokens for your megaturn).

In a guilds heavy kingdom you could use the baker to draw tokens and other cards to spend the tokens.

The baker might be a bit like the fortress in Dark Ages. A simple looking card but a cornerstone of the expansion set with many funky uses.

I've said this before, but I predict there will be at most one card that allows you to spend coin tokens outside your Buy phase. Since I first said that, we learned about Butcher, which does this. I don't think it's going to be a widespread mechanic.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:56:35 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2013, 11:53:07 am »
+4

So, with the extra $1 available in the opening 2 turns, can Celestial Chameleon now empty the supply by turn 3?
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2013, 11:54:09 am »
+1

My initial reaction is that the starting coin token will break the game, but Donald will probably prove me wrong.

I wouldn't think it breaks the game since everyone has the same access. The gap in players' experience may break the game as one person may spend his coin at an unwise time while the experienced player spends it at the right time, but that's true with the game in general.

I can see a problem with one player opening 4/3 while another opens 5/2. It's luck of the draw, just like it's luck when two players are going for Familiar and one of them draws $2P.

It'll shake things up, but I don't think it'll break. And if so, then Baker is just one card. Play another game.

I suspect that Baker is the only card that allows you to start with a Coin. It would be pretty crazy to have a Guilds setup where you start with 3 Coins or something.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2013, 11:57:09 am »
0

My initial reaction is that the starting coin token will break the game, but Donald will probably prove me wrong.

I wouldn't think it breaks the game since everyone has the same access. The gap in players' experience may break the game as one person may spend his coin at an unwise time while the experienced player spends it at the right time, but that's true with the game in general.

I can see a problem with one player opening 4/3 while another opens 5/2. It's luck of the draw, just like it's luck when two players are going for Familiar and one of them draws $2P.

It'll shake things up, but I don't think it'll break. And if so, then Baker is just one card. Play another game.

I suspect that Baker is the only card that allows you to start with a Coin. It would be pretty crazy to have a Guilds setup where you start with 3 Coins or something.

It's interesting, because it increases the amount of opening-skill dramatically, but at the same time it increases the amount of opening-luck. Because now one lucky player can open Goons/Embargo or Goons/Chapel, while another player can't. Someone can open Treasure Map/Treasure Map and hit them on turn 3, while another player misses. So it definitely adds some luck/swingyness to certain boards, but adds a lot of skill to most boards.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2013, 11:58:11 am »
0

My initial reaction is that the starting coin token will break the game, but Donald will probably prove me wrong.

I wouldn't think it breaks the game since everyone has the same access. The gap in players' experience may break the game as one person may spend his coin at an unwise time while the experienced player spends it at the right time, but that's true with the game in general.

I can see a problem with one player opening 4/3 while another opens 5/2. It's luck of the draw, just like it's luck when two players are going for Familiar and one of them draws $2P.

It'll shake things up, but I don't think it'll break. And if so, then Baker is just one card. Play another game.

I suspect that Baker is the only card that allows you to start with a Coin. It would be pretty crazy to have a Guilds setup where you start with 3 Coins or something.
The only real issue I have is players opening $4/$3 and buying two cards at the 4$ price point that are (mainly) only at that price point so you can't open with two of them.

But you do have a point. Baker is just one card and you can always just not play with it (but who in their right minds wouldn't!?)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2013, 11:58:25 am »
+1

Any comment on the artwork? Given the frosty reception of Maura's contributions I would have thought that comicky style would fall flat on most users' taste.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2013, 11:58:48 am »
0

I suspect that Baker is the only card that allows you to start with a Coin. It would be pretty crazy to have a Guilds setup where you start with 3 Coins or something.

That is probably true, or else it is shake it all apart.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2013, 11:59:18 am »
0

The baker might be a bit like the fortress in Dark Ages. A simple looking card but a cornerstone of the expansion set with many funky uses.

I think it will be rather the opposite.. A decent card that always fits in, but there will usually be something better. I don't see the huge combo potential fortress has.

I think in most cases, Baker will decrease opening luck. 4->5 is way more significant than 5->6 in most cases.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2013, 12:00:58 pm »
0

So, with the extra $1 available in the opening 2 turns, can Celestial Chameleon now empty the supply by turn 3?

I'm pretty sure it will be not the case. The coins provide you balance against bad luck, and the challenges of CC always have perfect shuffle luck. Maybe it's just more "realistic" to do that with the $1 extra, if you've only 99% luck :) 
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2013, 12:01:26 pm »
+1

Any comment on the artwork? Given the frosty reception of Maura's contributions I would have thought that comicky style would fall flat on most users' taste.
Well it's certainly better than something I could draw...  ;D

I prefer the more standard art, but I don't really care all that much about the artwork.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2013, 12:01:40 pm »
+3

I'm surprised that so many people are comparing this card to a market. In money terms I'd look at it as some sort of reverse treasury, where you'd get options to back load your spending with these +1 coins whereas the treasury front loads your income with +1 coin per turn. For an engine deck you might want to amass 30 coins and then splash out with your multiple buys on a final turn to clean the province pile. In a guilds heavy kingdom you could use the baker to draw tokens and other cards to spend the tokens.

The baker might be a bit like the fortress in Dark Ages. A simple looking card but a cornerstone of the expansion set with many funky uses.

I would compare it more to Bandit Camp, except you have a lot more control over coin tokens than Spoils, with the upshot that Spoils give more coins each.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2013, 12:01:55 pm »
0

I think you'll be able to use your coins during Black Market buy. This is being debated on BGG, and people here seem to just be saying you can't; but I disagree. Yes Donald said "during your buy phase," but it didn't sound like he was quoting rules. He was just explaining the basic mechanic. The rules also say you can only play Treasure cards during your buy phase, but Black Market allows you to break that rule by playing them anyway. I'm pretty sure it will work the same for coin tokens, but we'd have to wait for Donald to Weigh in, or for the official rules to clarify.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2013, 12:02:49 pm »
0

Quote
I think you're going to have trouble amassing Bakers and 30 coin tokens if you're spending all of your $5 buys on what are essentially empty cantrips (because you're saving your tokens for your megaturn).

Maybe you'd like to think about an Altar/hamlet opening?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:07:05 pm by DG »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2013, 12:04:13 pm »
+4

Super-excited about the previews, but sad that Donald didn't post it here himself... has he officially left us in favor of BGG? :'(

I think he got tired of all the complaints and whining about Goko.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2013, 12:05:04 pm »
+1

Donald said on BGG that you can't spend coin tokens for BM.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2013, 12:08:30 pm »
0

"I think you're going to have trouble amassing Bakers and 30 coin tokens if you're spending all of your $5 buys on what are essentially empty cantrips (because you're saving your tokens for your megaturn)."

Maybe you'd like to think about an Altar/hamlet opening?

Let's play it through roughly.
Turn 3/4: Trash something for baker, buy a baker (and that's lucky)
Turn 5/6: Play two bakers, buy one more baker, gain another baker with Altar
Turn 7/8: Play 4 bakers, gain 3 more
Gain a province every turn from here on.

Doesn't sound too bad.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2013, 12:09:17 pm »
0

So, with the extra $1 available in the opening 2 turns, can Celestial Chameleon now empty the supply by turn 3?

I'm pretty sure it will be not the case. The coins provide you balance against bad luck, and the challenges of CC always have perfect shuffle luck. Maybe it's just more "realistic" to do that with the $1 extra, if you've only 99% luck :)
I think the opening is more important here, with 4/4 or 2/6 opening (and other guild card?) thing may go a lot faster.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2013, 12:12:54 pm »
0

Its too bad that a Victory card counting coin tokens should be an Action/Victory that gives tokens to ensure you can get them (or maybe changes the rules allowing to get them in some other way). But if this is the main mechanic of the expansion, the Victory card counting the tokens would be pretty cool.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2013, 12:14:24 pm »
+2

Quote
This card looks like it compares strongly to Market, but the Market bot gets crushed by the Baker bot 70-23. So it's on an entirely different power level than the other cantrip 5s.

Are you sure that all the simulator bots are getting the +1 coin at the start of the game? That's the sort of margin of victory you'd see
from starting with a silver in your deck instead of one of your coppers.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2013, 12:15:01 pm »
+1

Donald said on BGG that you can't spend coin tokens for BM.

Yeah, just saw that, looks like I was wrong!

Quote from: DonaldX
You may not use coin tokens when buying a card with Black Market. You do start with a coin token if Baker is in the Black Market deck. Which is silly but well it's consistent with how other cards with setup function from the Black Market deck.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2013, 12:15:32 pm »
0

"I think you're going to have trouble amassing Bakers and 30 coin tokens if you're spending all of your $5 buys on what are essentially empty cantrips (because you're saving your tokens for your megaturn)."

Maybe you'd like to think about an Altar/hamlet opening?

Let's play it through roughly.
Turn 3/4: Trash something for baker, buy a baker (and that's lucky)
Turn 5/6: Play two bakers, buy one more baker, gain another baker with Altar
Turn 7/8: Play 4 bakers, gain 3 more
Gain a province every turn from here on.

Doesn't sound too bad.

Sure, it sounds great when Altar is in the game. In the vast majority of games, it's probably not a great strategy.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #105 on: June 03, 2013, 12:15:37 pm »
0

In itself, it seems like a rather weaker $5.  Compare to other similar $5 cost cards like Market, Bazaar, Treasury, etc.  How often would you actually want to save the coin token rather than spend it.  Even other cantrips seem more powerful and significant like Scheme or Caravan. 

Early game, you would almost always spend it as the power increase from $4 to $5 and $5 to $6 is too large to ignore.  I suppose late-game is where it would shine in evening out money for VP cards, but then again, if you've been using up your tokens early game, you may not have the most stored up in the vault (pun intended).
I think it's quite powerful actually, probably a lot better than market and treasury. From my experience, very, very often you have more money than you really need, especially for gold or province.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #106 on: June 03, 2013, 12:17:03 pm »
0

And you can still do something you can't usually do with peddler, you can spend 30 coins a turn even you cannot play 30 bakers a turn. It is probably too slow for CC's challenge though.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #107 on: June 03, 2013, 12:19:44 pm »
+1

Its too bad that a Victory card counting coin tokens should be an Action/Victory that gives tokens to ensure you can get them (or maybe changes the rules allowing to get them in some other way). But if this is the main mechanic of the expansion, the Victory card counting the tokens would be pretty cool.
I doubt that will be in. It would make coin tokens kinda like VP tokens, and you wouldn't spend them any more.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #108 on: June 03, 2013, 12:21:41 pm »
0

Its too bad that a Victory card counting coin tokens should be an Action/Victory that gives tokens to ensure you can get them (or maybe changes the rules allowing to get them in some other way). But if this is the main mechanic of the expansion, the Victory card counting the tokens would be pretty cool.
I doubt that will be in. It would make coin tokens kinda like VP tokens, and you wouldn't spend them any more.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's more likely that we'll see a Victory card that you can spend extra for to get an effect of some sort.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2013, 12:22:36 pm »
+35

And now, the moment everybody was waiting for: But How Does It Combo With Scout?

Just as Scout was merely a great card, rather than an elite card, prior to the release of Dark Ages, Guilds seems poised to catapult everyone's favorite deck reorder-er to number 1 status.

With Baker around, the elusive $4/$4 double Scout opening is finally possible. This will help scoop up all your Estates into your current hand. Play Scout, grab the Estates, play another Scout, grab more of the Estates. Combo alert!

Buying Baker will also mitigate a common mid-game dilemma. Often times, you'll find yourself with $7 in hand, and you say to yourself, "Man, if I just had $1 more coin, I could... buy two Scouts." But now the savvy player who plans ahead can save a coin for just such a purpose. Boom, bet your opponents didn't see that coming.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #110 on: June 03, 2013, 12:26:32 pm »
0

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

So I'm guessing there will be one more five cost card that starts with a "V" and does something with coin tokens, hence "CV Guild". Not sure what HV means (besides the card name starting with an "V"), but NH might mean a nonterminal and TP a terminal?

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Given that CB and CV were the only spoiled cards with C in their names (and given that we already know butcher uses coins) I suspect they're just random codes with no meaning.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2013, 12:35:31 pm »
+3

And now, the moment everybody was waiting for: But How Does It Combo With Scout?

Just as Scout was merely a great card, rather than an elite card, prior to the release of Dark Ages, Guilds seems poised to catapult everyone's favorite deck reorder-er to number 1 status.

With Baker around, the elusive $4/$4 double Scout opening is finally possible. This will help scoop up all your Estates into your current hand. Play Scout, grab the Estates, play another Scout, grab more of the Estates. Combo alert!

Buying Baker will also mitigate a common mid-game dilemma. Often times, you'll find yourself with $7 in hand, and you say to yourself, "Man, if I just had $1 more coin, I could... buy two Scouts." But now the savvy player who plans ahead can save a coin for just such a purpose. Boom, bet your opponents didn't see that coming.

They most definitely didn't!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #112 on: June 03, 2013, 01:30:48 pm »
+1

A use of Baker that has been hinted at, but not overtly stated is for money-poor decks. Whether that is multi-player Thief or Pirate Ship, or if you are doing a Festival/Library deck, a Scrying Pool deck, or any other situation where you want to spend $, but don't want treasures in your deck. Seems Baker fits there delightfully.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #113 on: June 03, 2013, 01:32:57 pm »
0

A use of Baker that has been hinted at, but not overtly stated is for money-poor decks. Whether that is multi-player Thief or Pirate Ship, or if you are doing a Festival/Library deck, a Scrying Pool deck, or any other situation where you want to spend $, but don't want treasures in your deck. Seems Baker fits there delightfully.

But does it do so in a way that Peddler or Treasure or Market or Bazaar doesn't? I'm not sure it plays so differently in that role.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #114 on: June 03, 2013, 02:30:46 pm »
+1

Money smoothing is pretty strong; see how Courtyard-BM is better than Smithy-BM. It doesn't smooth out as much as Courtyard, and it relies on having the actions to play Baker, but overall it seems pretty strong.

Should be okay in BM, since in Big Money the key breakpoints are $3, $6, and $8. So, odds are you'll have 1 or 2 coin tokens lying around to jump up to the next breakpoint. Not sure how it works in engines. I want to say it'll be good, but the key point of any engine is that it lets you scale in consistency and buying power at the same time. In order to do that, you'll need all the money you can early on to buy more engine parts. The more buys you have, the more money you can spend each turn, so you'll never have a big store of coin tokens. I think coin tokens will only be useful once the engine is pretty consistent.

As for a coin token fueled mega-turn, it's probably not too likely. If you can draw your deck every turn, you can store +$1 each turn per Baker, or you could buy a Silver instead of a Baker for $2 each turn since you draw the Silver every turn anyways. So, you're storing ~half the money you could have each turn, which sounds a bit too slow.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2013, 02:38:24 pm »
0

I doubt that will be in. It would make coin tokens kinda like VP tokens, and you wouldn't spend them any more.

I don't think you won't want to spend it ever (especially if getting to 1 coin = 1 VP requires several copies of the Victory card) because of the same reason you don't buy Coppers with Goons in play at the beginning or you trash your estates: Keeping the coin for the points later may make your deck worse by not allowing you to buy better cards (for instance, more bakers to get even more coins). Getting $4 and not spending a coin on a new Baker seems a pretty bad idea, if the game is not really close to the end or there is a really good $4.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #116 on: June 03, 2013, 02:42:13 pm »
0

I've only read the first couple pages but it seems to me like people could be underestimating Baker a lot: coin tokens are one of the themes of the expansion, so I would not be surprised if there are combos or other cards that make this one stronger, at least in games with other guilds cards.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #117 on: June 03, 2013, 02:47:53 pm »
0

BTW, a bit of meta-thought: if Baker is a cantrip, I'm going to make the wild guess that it has to be good for engines, at least for some engines. If it were meant for BM or slogs, it would probably be better as a terminal or something providing other resources (for BM) or extra Buys (for slogs). Slogs especially hate $5 cards, because they are hard to buy for the $4 green slogs (Silk Road and Gardens) and they compete with the key cards in Duchy/Duke or Rebuild.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #118 on: June 03, 2013, 02:52:23 pm »
0

if you play BM+X you often find yourself with $5 and don't want another X, so you'd buy silver. Then you can buy Baker instead.

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #119 on: June 03, 2013, 02:56:33 pm »
0

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2013, 03:00:31 pm »
0

Also the expansion sybol are compasses.. That's a bit surprising I think. I see scientists incoming, and probably an architect or Builder.

I don't think Baker will be a common opening. It's not a power card, and I don't think I'd spent my coin token for it. Chapel/Baker might be good though, allowing you to save up while trashing down.

The symbol is the Masonic compass, not your usual compass. It probably just is something RGG thought could represent "Guilds", even though the Masons were more of a society than a guild.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2013, 03:17:55 pm »
0

As for a coin token fueled mega-turn, it's probably not too likely. If you can draw your deck every turn, you can store +$1 each turn per Baker, or you could buy a Silver instead of a Baker for $2 each turn since you draw the Silver every turn anyways. So, you're storing ~half the money you could have each turn, which sounds a bit too slow.

Yeah, I suspect you'd need TR/KC to really make that work. It's no going to be a common combo since you also need +buy, other money to buy Bakers with, and some trashing or an engine to get it all going. Baker/KC/Market/Chapel does it, but that's a four card combo. But when it does hit...
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2013, 03:19:45 pm »
+1

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.

I wouldn't call that a slog


Also I think Baker is quite a weak KC target in relation to must other cards.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2013, 04:12:09 pm »
+2

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #124 on: June 03, 2013, 04:14:30 pm »
+4

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
Iso should have them by now, right?





oh, wait
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2013, 04:15:02 pm »
+6

Shut up and take my Gokoins!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #126 on: June 03, 2013, 04:22:29 pm »
+7

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
Iso should have them by now, right?





oh, wait

Let's please not start that again.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #127 on: June 03, 2013, 04:30:46 pm »
0

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.

I wouldn't call that a slog


Also I think Baker is quite a weak KC target in relation to must other cards.

Considering the goal of a KC deck is full deck draw, you're probably right. Baker shines in decks that can't draw all their cards. KC engines need not apply.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #128 on: June 03, 2013, 04:55:37 pm »
+1

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

So I'm guessing there will be one more five cost card that starts with a "V" and does something with coin tokens, hence "CV Guild". Not sure what HV means (besides the card name starting with an "V"), but NH might mean a nonterminal and TP a terminal?

Warrior
Given that CB and CV were the only spoiled cards with C in their names (and given that we already know butcher uses coins) I suspect they're just random codes with no meaning.

If N is non-terminal and T is terminal, then C could be cantrip. Cantrip Baker.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2013, 04:58:27 pm »
0

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.

I wouldn't call that a slog


Also I think Baker is quite a weak KC target in relation to must other cards.

Considering the goal of a KC deck is full deck draw, you're probably right. Baker shines in decks that can't draw all their cards. KC engines need not apply.

Unless you're going for a megaturn. The idea would be to build up a lot of money in a flimsy engine deck that that couldn't handle greening. Then spend it all in one go in one game-ending turn. No clue how that would actually pan out, but it will be fun to try.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2013, 05:05:46 pm »
0

I think it's too slow for mega turns.
But there will probably be other token gaining cards, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were more fit for a megaturn.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2013, 05:12:21 pm »
0

Quote
CBguild ($5)
CVguild ($5)
HVguild ($5)
NHguild ($5)
TPguild ($5)

So what do you think which one it is?

So I'm guessing there will be one more five cost card that starts with a "V" and does something with coin tokens, hence "CV Guild". Not sure what HV means (besides the card name starting with an "V"), but NH might mean a nonterminal and TP a terminal?

Warrior
Given that CB and CV were the only spoiled cards with C in their names (and given that we already know butcher uses coins) I suspect they're just random codes with no meaning.

If N is non-terminal and T is terminal, then C could be cantrip. Cantrip Baker.

I highly, highly doubt any of this.  Look at the letters used for all the other cards.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2013, 05:20:48 pm »
0

Having now hunted for the complete list of these, I will concur that that is almost certainly not what they mean.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2013, 05:28:46 pm »
+1

Also, you need to be very careful with coin token giving cards when possession is in the game.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2013, 05:30:40 pm »
0

Hey that was MY idea :

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3571.75
#2 (tie) - Survivor's Village by ChocophileBenj with 19 points (Arrowroot)
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
--
When you gain this, gain a Survivor's Village token.
--
At the start of any turn, you may return one Survivor's Village token before you play your first action. If you do, +1 Action.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2013, 05:35:29 pm »
0

Also, you need to be very careful with coin token giving cards when possession is in the game.

I'm guessing, like with Victory tokens, they'd go to the card owner, and not the possessor.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2013, 05:37:37 pm »
+2

But the possessor can spend all of the possessed's coin tokens.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2013, 05:38:13 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2013, 05:41:34 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
just spend all your tokens at the turn you opponent buys possesion and buy a province or something and you are good to go.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #139 on: June 03, 2013, 05:41:54 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.

You can also spend Possessed Spoils, but this sounds like it would hurt more.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #140 on: June 03, 2013, 05:44:17 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
just spend all your tokens at the turn you opponent buys possesion and buy a province or something and you are good to go.

Yeah but that still means you start losing the utility of them after the possessing starts. The whole point of having them in the first place is to be able to save them. But with a Possession in your opponent's deck saving them is a liability. It's not as bad as having an Ambassador or a Masquerade but it's still going to hurt.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 05:48:29 pm by shMerker »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #141 on: June 03, 2013, 05:46:42 pm »
+1

This card seems hard to evaluate now, even when I'm ignoring the new set.

Trying anyway:

* The main use for this card is in BM-draw-ish decks that are looking for their 5th / 6th province to seal the deal. It's super powerful in courtyard-BM that fights an engine, although you want only one.
* It has a lot to do with reshuffles. You don't need to spend that coin now, but you do need to spend it before your next shuffle.
* It has quite an impact on the endgame. Duchy dancing fine with me, especially if I'm building towards double province.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #142 on: June 03, 2013, 05:52:16 pm »
+1

The consensus is that this would be underwhelming in engines and much better in decks that have inconsistent $ output.

There are those inconsistent engines that would benefit greatly from this card. I'm not talking about stuff like Village-Smithy where you draw all of your terminals in your starting hand, but rather engines that have decent drawing power but don't consistently provide $ mainly due to junking.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2013, 05:54:31 pm »
+1

* It has a lot to do with reshuffles. You don't need to spend that coin now, but you do need to spend it before your next shuffle.

Why would you need to spend it before the reshuffle? I don't get it.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #144 on: June 03, 2013, 05:55:56 pm »
0

The consensus is that this would be underwhelming in engines and much better in decks that have inconsistent $ output.

There are those inconsistent engines that would benefit greatly from this card. I'm not talking about stuff like Village-Smithy where you draw all of your terminals in your starting hand, but rather engines that have decent drawing power but don't consistently provide $ mainly due to junking.

I don't really see when you can just spend $5 on a Baker in such an engine though.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #145 on: June 03, 2013, 05:56:04 pm »
0

* It has a lot to do with reshuffles. You don't need to spend that coin now, but you do need to spend it before your next shuffle.

Why would you need to spend it before the reshuffle? I don't get it.

I would like to add my support to this sentiment.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #146 on: June 03, 2013, 05:59:48 pm »
0

Probably in order not to waste one play of the better card you get with it.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #147 on: June 03, 2013, 06:02:53 pm »
0

I don't really see when you can just spend $5 on a Baker in such an engine though.

When you can spend $5 on a Treasury, or a Market, or a Bazaar, or a Lab, or...
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #148 on: June 03, 2013, 06:04:56 pm »
0

Probably in order not to waste one play of the better card you get with it.

So that's just saving a single coin (if you got a single Baker).  If you want to save your coins for more expensive things, it will take multiple shuffles.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #149 on: June 03, 2013, 06:17:47 pm »
0

I don't really see when you can just spend $5 on a Baker in such an engine though.

When you can spend $5 on a Treasury, or a Market, or a Bazaar, or a Lab, or...

Those all provide crucial parts of an engine, while Baker just makes it run smoother.
I think Treasury is closest, but it gives you a coin every turn. That is usuually enough to get up to an engine component when you otherwise couldn't otherwise get. So Treasury is usually better.
And it's not like Treasury was that good for engines, or in general.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2013, 06:26:00 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
just spend all your tokens at the turn you opponent buys possesion and buy a province or something and you are good to go.

Yeah but that still means you start losing the utility of them after the possessing starts. The whole point of having them in the first place is to be able to save them. But with a Possession in your opponent's deck saving them is a liability. It's not as bad as having an Ambassador or a Masquerade but it's still going to hurt.

My initial impression is that you are going to want to spend the coins quickly - they are like short-term loans or something. The longer you hold on to them, the less utility you are getting from the Baker. If you can play Baker and then quickly invest the coin into a better card and start cycling the card, then Baker helped you very much over the rest of the game. If you sit and accumulate coins, then you aren't improving you deck as rapidly. If played in that manner, then Possession is an annoyance and can be frustrating, but you wouldn't necessarily rush to trash your Baker just because your opponent bought Possession.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2013, 06:41:42 pm »
+13

Okay, there are basically three (mechanical) things here, and I want to touch on them all. 1)Coin tokens, generally; B)The set-up clause; 3-and/or-C - oh let's just call it III) the card itself.


Coin tokens: Seems to me these are best in... engines. I see a lot of engine hate out there, but in principle, what kind of deck underspends more often than others - typically engines. Engines also tend to have the +buy that can take best advantage of the tokens in the endgame. Moreover, they will reasonably often be able to cobble up extra engine pieces essentially out of nothing, with the buy. On the other hand, they're actually *great* for slogs, where you really spend exactly basically all the time, and smooth 4s and 5s are great. Of course, that's hypothetical, and not knowing how exactly you'll be able to get them, it might be very hard to get slog card and coin-giving card.

I think spoils are a reasonable comparison in a number of ways. Of course, I actually think these things might be better for engines than spoils (well, okay, I will usually take a spoils over a coin token, granted, as it's worth so much more. But I expect that, for engines at least, I'd rather have 2 coin tokens than a spoils) because they don't take up space in your deck. That is MASSIVE for engines. But okay, I also think spoils are probably misplayed a good bit, and these will be, too. You really have to time spending these things right. The impulse is basically always going to be to spend them right away, nownownow. And yeah, usually, that's probably going to be right. But I expect tere will be a lot of exceptions (and this is why I am throwing the spoils in), even when spending it WOULD let you buy something better for your deck. Sure, often (say you're playing BM) you'd buy province on $8 on turn 5, but you almost certainly shouldn't spend 2 coin tokens to do this when you could buy gold and keep them, and actually I'm quite sure you shouldn't even spend 1. Well, these may be obvious examples, but I'm sure there are lots more that are, generally, much more subtle.

But okay, what can we expect to see? Can't really have a village that gives them, as barring black market, it's strictly better than bazaar if it costs $5, and at $6... well, you'd need some other ability. Necropolis which gives you a token could be a $2, probably reasonably balanced, not terribly hot. I think more interesting would be something like "+1 buy. Gain 2 coin tokens." for $4. Well, maybe this is too strong for $4 - actually I'm guessing it would be QUITE good there, probably printable without the buy even. With the buy, it's bananas in engines, combo decks, and slogs, and not at all bad in big money. I mean, big money likes the smoothing a lot, too, particularly if it's your kind of simple BM, where mostly you are buying silver and gold. 5-cost cards that you want tend to probably push you to not saving so much, and of course most games have those. Anyway, I expect we won't see too many vanilla-like cards with coin tokens - it wouldn't surprise me if Baker is the only one.


Okay, the set-up. Usually, I suspect you'll use this to take a 5-3 opening. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if this makes silver just a lot less prevalent - the main goal of silver, in a lot of decks, is to get you up to 5, which is hard to do without silver in many respects. But here, you've got that $5 locked down. And very often, your $5 will help a good deal in getting to more 5s. 6/2? Well, there aren't all that many 6s I want turn 1. Yeah, goons is pretty good any time, though I think most often this is not so much better than the 5 you were going to get. Altar, yeah. Gold, well, would you not rather have the 5 card most of the time? Particularly when you get to save the token? I think you would. Border village, almost certainly not. I mean, just take the 5, you don't need the village yet anyway. And most of the other 6s, I mean, it's not like I'm oozing for a t1 adventurer or farmland or fairgrounds. 4/4 opening? Well, it's true that 4 is supposed to be there because you can't open double them, but on the other hand, I am not so sure that this is actually true in practice for so many 4s - particularly when you consider that, not only does it have to be 'worth it' in terms of avoiding the terminal collision and what have you, but also in terms of spending the token, AND in forgoing te 5/3 you could have had. So I just don't see this as actually giving much impact at all. And then there's saving it. Probably this is most useful for some boring board where you are playing e.g. Smithy BM. But if you just want a 4/3 anyway, because there are no 5s worth having, or having early, for instance, then you are good there.


The card itself: I imagine it will see some use in engines, just because treasury, market, highway, et al see play sometimes even when they're more or less just peddlers. I mean, I like this better than, say, treasury, but worse for engines than, oh, bazaar and highway, which are both excellent engine cards (assuming you have some buy/gain for highway of course), and even market, which you usually don't want tons of, but then that 1-3 can be really really key. This probably won't be a key card in almost any engine, or deck maybe, but just a nice solid support card... which isn't very good, just because it costs 5, which is a huge opportunity cost! I have to say, I disagree with Stef - this card is TERRIBLE for Big Money - terminal draw. I mean, you are going to draw it dead off of something like smity, it competes with a lot of the $5 draw cards, which will just be better, this leaves... well basically, courtyard. And okay, courtyard won't have this collide (much), but you end up getting fewer courtyards, and given that this doesn't have just oodles of upside for that particular deck... I'm sure it will help that deck some, I grant you, but I doubt it is a lot better. And much of that time even, you'll have something nicer to do with $5. I assume this is best in sort of money decks without terminal draw. Of course, these decks aren't very numerous, because they generally aren't that good, but you see them sometimes. So something like this and monument, this and swindler, maybe even fortune teller and cutpurse and militia, this kind of stuff. Something like mountebank would fit there, too, at least potentially. Such decks currently pick up caravans, labs, stables, this kind of thing, as well as peddler variants, and I assume this will hit in there, and significantly better than at least most of the other peddler-types.

I find it totally unsurprising that BM-this beats BM-Market. Of course, you aren't going to ply either of those decks, really almost ever, without other stuff. If you get the play rules right for this, I bet it's even bigger than that. I mean, market for that deck... you're almost never using the +buy there.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2013, 06:58:10 pm »
+1

I feel that this card will be a fantastic opening buy (since you are guaranteed 5$) in games with other 5$ power cards or combo cards.  Especially starting with 1st player advantage.  Because it allows you to use/hoard the exact amount of currency you need to get the card you need without overspending.

There are many, many 4$ and 5$ cards that are worth overpaying for.  But each time you overpay, you put yourself at a disadvantage vs a player going for a similar strategy. It's rough when you are playing a game with Jack of all trades, but open 5/2 and never draw a 4.  Or you see an amazing apothecary combo, and never get a 4. (Who wants to overpay for a potion, ughhh).  Baker allows you to be strategic early as well as the province phase. I'd argue it's more valuable to bump a 4$ silver turn into a wharf or ghost ship, than bumping 7$ into a gold.

I've lost many games with powerful 5$ and 4$ cards because I'm constantly pulling 6$ and 3$.  There are times where even on turn 5 of 6, a silver would be slowing down your deck, so 3$ hands are just about the worst thing you could possibly draw. (minion, scrying pool, lots of discarding attacks).

Baker is like insurance, that you are going to get the exact amount of money you need to get your deck rolling. It reduces bad luck and swing, a perfect opening card if you already have 1p advantage. Fantastic combo with wharf/BM, embassy/tunnel, Haggler BM, minion engines, anything where there is a clear extremely powerful strategy and you are worried about a bad string of 6$/3$ splits, or those dreaded mountebank games where it seems like you never get to 5 or 6$
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2013, 07:56:27 pm »
+2

Regarding whether to spend a token now or later, I believe that the real deadline is "this shuffle" or a later one.  Usually, you won't see your newly acquired cards until the next shuffle, so you are not losing any utility a priori by saving your token a few hands, so long as you do not hit a reshuffle.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2013, 08:37:19 pm »
+1

Also, I want to play with this, so Goko needs to put this up for me to try.
Iso should have them by now, right?





oh, wait

Let's please not start that again.
Sorry, I just had to.
But really, I wanna play guilds as soon as possible. It might be awhile before I get the physicall version, so Goko better have it within a week. Realistically though, probably a month  >:(
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #155 on: June 03, 2013, 08:51:17 pm »
0

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you can spend your opponent's tokens.
just spend all your tokens at the turn you opponent buys possesion and buy a province or something and you are good to go.

Yeah but that still means you start losing the utility of them after the possessing starts. The whole point of having them in the first place is to be able to save them. But with a Possession in your opponent's deck saving them is a liability. It's not as bad as having an Ambassador or a Masquerade but it's still going to hurt.

My initial impression is that you are going to want to spend the coins quickly - they are like short-term loans or something. The longer you hold on to them, the less utility you are getting from the Baker. If you can play Baker and then quickly invest the coin into a better card and start cycling the card, then Baker helped you very much over the rest of the game. If you sit and accumulate coins, then you aren't improving you deck as rapidly. If played in that manner, then Possession is an annoyance and can be frustrating, but you wouldn't necessarily rush to trash your Baker just because your opponent bought Possession.

So as either a Peddler or a delayed Peddler - see, I don't feel that's quite worth $5.  Sure, in the early and mid game you probably want to spend them quickly, but in the late game you probably shouldn't spend them unless you actually have $8.  I see them as a way to make more expensive purchases easier.  Turn those $7s into $8s, rather than $3s into $4s.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2013, 09:37:21 pm »
+1

The setup effect is higher variance, not reduced variance, imo.  It does "fix" 5/2 unfairnesses, but in general it accelarates the game, and game acceleration generally exacerbates first player advantage.  That's not a complaint, I think the effect is interesting and worthwhile and well worth the drawback.  I'm just pointing out that I think those arguing the contrary are wrong.
Furthermore, Militia vs. Militia first player advantage is nasty, but Witch versus Witch first player advantage is even bigger.

In general this will be a skill intensive card, with wise use of coin tokens.  And that's pretty cool.  You can use the bakers as a balanced "cantrip VP token generator", generating you .75 VP every play, provided you have something like Worker's Village going on in the setup. 
That's usually going to be weak and slow, but hopefully there is some setup where it works. (maybe with Silk Road, where the VP tokens could easily be 1.25)
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Polk5440

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2013, 11:56:14 pm »
+1

I am excited!

My first thoughts:

1) I am happy the card is pretty simple.
2) I am glad the new mechanic does not require a new mat or a new type of token... just repurposes one.
3) Peddler plus save it for later. It has to be $5. But this might be a card like Inn where the "special effect" is often more interesting than actually having the card in your deck.

4) I thought Scout jokes were passe.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2013, 11:57:32 pm »
0

I feel that this card will be a fantastic opening buy (since you are guaranteed 5$) in games with other 5$ power cards or combo cards.  Especially starting with 1st player advantage.  Because it allows you to use/hoard the exact amount of currency you need to get the card you need without overspending.
But you also definitely get 1 fewer power 5$, and it's the worst one: your first.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #159 on: June 04, 2013, 12:12:48 am »
0

Baker is definitely going to be an engine card. You want to play it a lot! It's not worth all that much if you just play it like 4-5 times all game, or something. This card wants cycling and trashing and draw everything and buy lots of components and have this extra pile of coin to do exactly what you want.

In a BM deck, sure, it will be nice to smooth out a $7 hand now and then, but the opportunity cost of spending $5 for this thing probably just isn't worth it so much. Never in terminal BM at any rate. Perhaps in BM Haggler or BM Monument decks, but that's a fairly rare thing.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #160 on: June 04, 2013, 12:17:41 am »
+1

I'm just imagining a trimmed engine with Baker and plenty of +Buy, and only buying what your engine needs at the time, and saving the excess in coin tokens, then cashing out in one final turn.  Of course, you have to watch your opponent's coin token pile and cash out before they do.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #161 on: June 04, 2013, 01:36:44 am »
0

I'm just imagining a trimmed engine with Baker and plenty of +Buy, and only buying what your engine needs at the time, and saving the excess in coin tokens, then cashing out in one final turn.  Of course, you have to watch your opponent's coin token pile and cash out before they do.
Maybe it will be a valid strategy with other coin giving cards on the board so you can get a lot of them.
maybe there is a vanilla

Coin giver 4$
gain 2 coin tokens + X
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #162 on: June 04, 2013, 02:07:32 am »
+3

I so want there to be 13 cards in this pile instead of 10...

Assuming that the Butcher leak is correct, we also really need a candlestick maker card.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #163 on: June 04, 2013, 02:58:21 am »
+1

I just love the idea of being able to save and spend extra money, it widens the decision spectrum and in my view that's (almost) always a good thing.

And with Baker, that's happening from the get-go with your extra token. No more whining about 4/3 vs a 5/2 Mint/FG or Mountebank/Chapel opener. Sure, same starting hands are always going to be the most equal you can get (or letting players choose their opening hands), but this compensates at least.

The fact that you don't need to play a certain card to allow you to spend the coin tokens is pretty sweet. This means you're facing a tougher decision on every hand.

From a strategic point of view, it's probably better to spend them early due to the cascading nature of Dominion. Good cards earlier are way better than good cards later (just imagine a Wharf played 3 times vs a Wharf played 4 times, that's a 3 card difference). But while I say this, a late Province is much better than a Duchy for 7.

So I look forward to facing those choices. There will be moments when I think: "Hmm, if I spend this coin now, I can get a Gold instead of a crappy $5, but if I save it, I might get a Province instead of a Duchy. But if I save it and don't need it, I'll have wasted it."

The last part is especially interesting. When you start saving coins for "possible" shortcomings in the end game, there's no guarantee this will happen. Instead of 7 with 1 available coin, you might hit 6 with 1 coin. So spending them when you know you want to is probably good, meaning as early as possible. Heck, you can get more with Baker anyway.

I haven't read all 50 pages of this topic to be honest, but I assume Guilds will provide its own coins and not force you to use the ones from Seaside or Prosperity, right?

And WW's point about coins not being in your deck is also huuugely important.

I'm not going to argue that this card is better than Market, since Market's +Buy is a necessary component sometimes, but the fact that it gives you the option when you want to spend this Peddler-variant's +$1 makes it a very skillful card, which is extra fun because it doesn't look like one.

What do you guys think about the art? I think it's too cartoony to fit in with the rest.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #164 on: June 04, 2013, 03:41:41 am »
0

I am wondering about the German translation, as German job titles normally convey the person's gender. As the male version is seen as the generic, I'd expect the lady being titled as "Bäcker" rather than "Bäckerin" or "Bäckersfrau", just as Peddler being "Hausierer" in the German version.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #165 on: June 04, 2013, 05:01:40 am »
0

I wouldn't be surpirised if they name the card "Bäckerei" = "bakery" just to avoid the whole genderthing.

Actually i'm more wondering if there will be a german version at all, given that Hans im Glück split with Rio Grande. It will be hard for a new publisher to make money in the german area with all the old copies of Hans im Glück Dominion still lying around.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #166 on: June 04, 2013, 05:02:11 am »
0

I find it totally unsurprising that BM-this beats BM-Market. Of course, you aren't going to ply either of those decks, really almost ever, without other stuff. If you get the play rules right for this, I bet it's even bigger than that. I mean, market for that deck... you're almost never using the +buy there.
I won with BM Market-terminal once.

I was VERY intoxicated.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2013, 05:05:04 am »
0

I wouldn't be surpirised if they name the card "Bäckerei" = "bakery" just to avoid the whole genderthing.

Actually i'm more wondering if there will be a german version at all, given that Hans im Glück split with Rio Grande. It will be hard for a new publisher to make money in the german area with all the old copies of Hans im Glück Dominion still lying around.
the German version was confirmed somewhere on BGG I think, and to me it sounded like RGG would publish it themselves.
edit: it wasn't BGG, someone from a German forum emailed them:  http://forum.dominionblog.de/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2465&start=20#p44919
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 05:08:33 am by Watno »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2013, 05:21:05 am »
0

But really, I wanna play guilds as soon as possible. It might be awhile before I get the physicall version, so Goko better have it within a week.

It would have been fun and maybe worthwhile for them if they had included the current teaser card for free just during its day to increase interest (is possible!).
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pst

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2013, 05:38:22 am »
0

I think double Tactician could work excellent with coin tokens for money!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2013, 05:39:16 am »
+2

I have to say, I disagree with Stef - this card is TERRIBLE for Big Money - terminal draw. I mean, you are going to draw it dead off of something like smity, it competes with a lot of the $5 draw cards, which will just be better, this leaves... well basically, courtyard. And okay, courtyard won't have this collide (much), but you end up getting fewer courtyards, and given that this doesn't have just oodles of upside for that particular deck... I'm sure it will help that deck some, I grant you, but I doubt it is a lot better. And much of that time even, you'll have something nicer to do with $5. I assume this is best in sort of money decks without terminal draw. Of course, these decks aren't very numerous, because they generally aren't that good, but you see them sometimes.

I don't want to play this card in BM-embassy, rabble, Margrave or Vault. In fact, I don't think I want to play it in any BM-mirror-match. But I do want to play it in a non-mirror-match. The BM-ish player is often desperately trying to secure enough points before the engine gets to full steam. Getting the last 1-2 provinces you need is a huge deal, and could easily take more then 5 turns. In those turns the Monuments, Fairgrounds, Bishops or whatever are flying around your ears. In the meanwhile $6 & $7 hands just make you go crazy. A few coins could solve all your problems.

But as you point out, non-draw-BM is a much better spot for this card. In fact, that just might be great. Although they're not that numerous now, Baker may very well make them good.
Baker-BM-doubleX looks pretty darn solid. X could be Monument, Militia, Merchant Ship, or something alike. I'm not claiming mega-strong, but very solid, because you can continue buying provinces after your first 4.

For powerful engines, $5 for $1 isn't that great, especially not against someone not playing the engine. In engine vs engine, building up coin tokens as an alternative for buying green may be good, but then they're coming in late.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2013, 05:46:28 am »
0

What do you guys think about the art? I think it's too cartoony to fit in with the rest.

Some discussion about the art over there: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7717.msg221661#msg221661

Her attire looks like something from the 1980s rather like the time Dominion is supposed to reflect.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #172 on: June 04, 2013, 06:25:52 am »
0

I think double Tactician could work excellent with coin tokens for money!

Agree that Tactician would work well with Baker in general. Thought the coin tokens mechanism itself does not specifically help Double Tactician deck more than other normal coin-giving action.

I would say coin tokens actually help a single Tactician deck more than a double Tactician deck, in a sense that you could save some token to use in the turn you play Tactician.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #173 on: June 04, 2013, 06:47:28 am »
+1

What do you guys think about the art? I think it's too cartoony to fit in with the rest.

Some discussion about the art over there: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7717.msg221661#msg221661

Her attire looks like something from the 1980s rather like the time Dominion is supposed to reflect.

I really didn't like the earlier cartoony art on dominion cards like Harem and Shanty Town.... but the art on Baker.... I like it better for some reason.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #174 on: June 04, 2013, 08:04:13 am »
+1

I also kind of like how it mimics Goko adventures, too, by changing your opening options.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #175 on: June 04, 2013, 08:36:44 am »
0

Btw, there are no slogs on Rebuild boards.

Well, Rebuild + Curser/Looter will get you there. I found Rebuild pretty good in slogs, because it gets you to Duchies and Provinces even without producing good money. With Sea Hag its pretty good, for instance, with Rebuild being non-terminal.

I wouldn't call that a slog


Also I think Baker is quite a weak KC target in relation to must other cards.

Considering the goal of a KC deck is full deck draw, you're probably right. Baker shines in decks that can't draw all their cards. KC engines need not apply.

I don't think that's necessarily true. KC-Bridge and KC-Monument, for example, don't need to draw the whole deck.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #176 on: June 04, 2013, 08:45:48 am »
+3

I expect "baker" over "breadmaker".  The woman's face looks horizontally stretched or vertically compressed, but the white banner and the bread and everything look OK, so I'm not sure if the image is stretched after all.

Gotta give credit where credit is due, go give this man an upvote.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #177 on: June 04, 2013, 11:15:47 am »
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You know, I think Baker may be a good opener with say, Chapel, where you totally expect to find yourself not buying anything for a couple of turns. It doesn't get in the way of your trashing, and helps save up for some good purchases once you have an economy going.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2013, 11:20:29 am »
+2

You know, I think Baker may be a good opener with say, Chapel, where you totally expect to find yourself not buying anything for a couple of turns. It doesn't get in the way of your trashing, and helps save up for some good purchases once you have an economy going.

I think this may have been mentioned previously, but I feel like Ambassador is an even better example than Chapel, since many early turns are spent tossing Coppers and Estates back and forth with relatively little economic growth.  Baker would let you save up for a Gold without filling up on Silvers which block your Ambassador.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #179 on: June 04, 2013, 11:25:27 am »
0

Similarly, in a bishop golden deck you may keep your money from baker until the last turn (so in a hand of Gold - silver - silver - province - bishop, play bishop and trash gold, then play 3 money tokens)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #180 on: June 04, 2013, 01:15:47 pm »
0

I think double Tactician could work excellent with coin tokens for money!

Agree that Tactician would work well with Baker in general. Thought the coin tokens mechanism itself does not specifically help Double Tactician deck more than other normal coin-giving action.

I would say coin tokens actually help a single Tactician deck more than a double Tactician deck, in a sense that you could save some token to use in the turn you play Tactician.

I think you'd rather wanna save the coins you get on the turn you play Tactician.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #181 on: June 04, 2013, 01:46:32 pm »
+1

Oh, also, coin tokens provide a defense to pins.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #182 on: June 04, 2013, 02:16:44 pm »
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Oh, also, coin tokens provide a defense to pins.

To which pin? Even if you buy something with your coins, its going to get trashed later (unless you buy Moat to protect from the discard and then also buy a discard attack yourself, or something like that).
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #183 on: June 04, 2013, 02:19:08 pm »
0

I guess at some time, the pin player has to start buying VP, and then he won't be able to trash your cards any longer. And then, you can buy VP on you own with your coins.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #184 on: June 04, 2013, 02:19:08 pm »
0

I just noticed coin tokens might also be quuite useful for a reliable quick province with tournament on the board.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #185 on: June 04, 2013, 02:20:13 pm »
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Sure, they can help, especially when there are cheaper coin generating cards as well.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #186 on: June 04, 2013, 02:20:58 pm »
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If you have enough coin tokens to buy out enough piles, you're at least potentially fine. And probably you don't need ALL that much money to do so?

Moreoever, they're going to have to start building their deck at some point. Well okay, it's not a fantastic defense, but it's a potential one, another tool in the bag of the pin-fighters.

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #187 on: June 04, 2013, 03:20:21 pm »
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I've always thought (at least with KC-Goons-Masquerade) that once you've trashed the opponents whole deck you start buying cards one at a time, trashing them with the Masquerade, and your last buy is a victory card which ends the game with a 3 VP lead or something.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #188 on: June 04, 2013, 03:23:27 pm »
0

With Goons you just deplete the piles once you have enough VP chips to win. The problem is the non-VP attacks (Militia/Ghost Ship/discarding-knight).
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #189 on: June 04, 2013, 03:25:07 pm »
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I also kind of like how it mimics Goko adventures, too, by changing your opening options.
Now you can open Colony/Scout like you always wanted to!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #190 on: June 04, 2013, 03:50:50 pm »
0

It'd be interesting if there's a 0-cost card that gives you one coin when you buy it. This could get around the Masquerade pin.

Of course, then that pile runs out. To counter this, there could be an on-trash clause that returns the card back to the supply.

Keep buying that card as your opponent trashes them. Rack up money to pull yourself out of the pin.

If you pay 0 coin for a Copper, then it's not too farfetched to have a 0-cost card that gives you a coin. There is nothing, aside from the likes of Madmen and Spoils, that returns itself to the supply.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #191 on: June 04, 2013, 03:56:59 pm »
+1

Apart from the fact that there's no 0-cost card in this set.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #192 on: June 04, 2013, 03:59:32 pm »
0

It'd be interesting if there's a 0-cost card that gives you one coin when you buy it. This could get around the Masquerade pin.

Of course, then that pile runs out. To counter this, there could be an on-trash clause that returns the card back to the supply.

Keep buying that card as your opponent trashes them. Rack up money to pull yourself out of the pin.

If you pay 0 coin for a Copper, then it's not too farfetched to have a 0-cost card that gives you a coin. There is nothing, aside from the likes of Madmen and Spoils, that returns itself to the supply.


That would mean you need to pair one card with a variation of a three-card-combo. With random boards, this is not likely, and since the card would be dead otherwise and you would not buy a dead card to get a one-shot-copper, this card's only purpose will be to counter pins.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #193 on: June 04, 2013, 04:50:13 pm »
+2

I totally expect a reaction that gives coin tokens by the way. That's the way to get +$ during your opponents turn.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #194 on: June 04, 2013, 04:53:39 pm »
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I totally expect a reaction that gives coin tokens by the way. That's the way to get +$ during your opponents turn.

I am also hoping for this.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #195 on: June 04, 2013, 04:55:10 pm »
0

I totally expect a reaction that gives coin tokens by the way. That's the way to get +$ during your opponents turn.

Sounds reasonable, although it was possible to get +$ in Reactions without using the new coins. Horse Trader's way to give you an extra card could also be used to give you $, Actions or whatever else.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #196 on: June 04, 2013, 04:56:02 pm »
+1

I totally expect a reaction that gives coin tokens by the way. That's the way to get +$ during your opponents turn.

Sounds reasonable, although it was possible to get +$ in Reactions without using the new coins. Horse Trader's way to give you an extra card could also be used to give you $, Actions or whatever else.

True, but coin tokens are cooler.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #197 on: June 04, 2013, 04:58:18 pm »
0

True, but coin tokens are cooler.

Definitely. I was just saying maybe there is something wrong with getting +$ on a Reaction other than the specific mechanic to get the +$.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #198 on: June 04, 2013, 05:03:14 pm »
+2

True, but coin tokens are cooler.

Definitely. I was just saying maybe there is something wrong with getting +$ on a Reaction other than the specific mechanic to get the +$.

Possible, but I doubt it. I'm guessing that coin tokens are the cleanest way to do it and therefore I'm really hoping we'll see such a Reaction.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #199 on: June 04, 2013, 05:08:48 pm »
0

I come out with a few ideas (without names) using this wonderful ideas that are Coin tokens :

-Card 1-
Action, cost $3
Set aside 2 Coin tokens. At the start of your next turn, take them.

Please note that it is no duration card, so you can play it every turn, and hey duration cards give you a bonus only on that turn and the next one ? Here, you instead sacrifice an action a turn in order to gain a more flexible benefit, and if you manage to play several of them, or TR-KC-Procession them, why not...

-Card 2-
Victory, cost $6
Worth 2 VP --- When you gain this, take 2 Coin tokens.

So you buy it, and you can spend another extra $2, this turn or later if you missed the province. I think it should be right at 6, like Farmland and Harem which are worth the same amount of VP.

-Card 3-
Action attack, cost $4
+1 action, gain 1 Coin token. Each other player with more Coin tokens than you chooses one : he discards down to 3 cards in hand, or he returns one Coin token to the supply.

This one leaves me with a doubt : at least it's a non-terminal CT-gainer, but it can lead to boring games as you can't choose to save your CTs for later without being targeted by the attacks ! But on the other hand this concept of "card that attacks player with more CTs than you" seems fun to me. So what ?

Then, what about a card that also gives you Coin Token on reaction (for example when an opponent plays an attack card, or when you discard this outside of Clean-up phase like Tunnel, or... ) ?
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #200 on: June 05, 2013, 02:59:30 am »
0

True, but coin tokens are cooler.

Definitely. I was just saying maybe there is something wrong with getting +$ on a Reaction other than the specific mechanic to get the +$.

Possible, but I doubt it. I'm guessing that coin tokens are the cleanest way to do it and therefore I'm really hoping we'll see such a Reaction.
I like this idea and the card can be pretty straightforward: Okay, the attack (or whatever it reacts to) happens, but you get a Coin in return, that's not so bad.

You could tack all sorts of things onto the Action part.

About the art: I don't think it's bad, I would like it if it were a card from another game, but it just doesn't fit in well with the rest.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 03:17:03 am by Davio »
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #201 on: June 05, 2013, 05:15:53 am »
+2

Well, I like what Lynell Ingram did for princess, but sorry baker is just awful. Cartoon art can be great, but not in that "amateur" way.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #202 on: June 05, 2013, 05:56:52 pm »
0

I just played a game with baker.
we took the treassury instead and the pirate ship tokens.
it was pretty fun.

there was allways the temptation to save the coins for later and build up a bigger amount of them as well as allways having some in petto.

we are just too economical =)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #203 on: June 06, 2013, 07:40:56 am »
+4

Previews are out and I missed it. :(

Time to catch up.  :D Most of the things were probably already mentioned, but I just mention what I notice.

At first the card seemed boring, too vanilla, but the more I thought about it, it's a great card and I'm excited to play with it.

I think Baker is much stronger than Treasury and Market, not a power $5 though, but for certain above average, maybe on par with Highway if you compare all those Peddler variants.
Saving coins is a huge benefit, more than some people might realize. I think it will fit great in both engines and BM-ish strategies and will perform similar to Bandit Camp which might be the most comparable card. Pure Baker-BM is probably not super strong, but on weak boards still not ignorable, I think.

Let's have a look at some interactions. The virtual money might be good in getting to Grand Markets as you can buy one with 2 Silvers and 2 tokens now. It's of course great with Tactician as you can play it when you discard your hand and save the coins for later. I think in slower games with strong attacks it might be pretty good too as you can play it after were hit by a Ghost Ship and save the coin for later. In cursing games you can get to crucial cards and late Provinces also more easily. Although it could even out the money in Duke games, I don't think it will be great in Alt-VP games as it has a high opportunity cost. Maybe one copy early is great, though. Still, this makes it a very good versatile card in general.

Now about the setup instructions: Wow, what a game changer. It has a great impact to the game and especially to the opening buys although you might end up never even buying it. Now you could open $4/$4, so maybe Double Sea Hag, and wow Double Treasure Map, maybe even Double Potion on a Scrying Pool or University game. What do you think about double Remake? Also, you are guaranteed a crucial $5 with Baker on the board (with Baker probably not being one itself) and aren't screwed with no $2s on the board. Also you could now open with Goons, Altar or Hunting Grounds or Hoard and of course Gold!

Even after one card spoiled I agree with Donald X. that this seems the most skill-intensive expansion. Let's say you have $5 and at least 3 coin tokens. Do you buy another Baker, a Gold or a Province? For that you have to take into account the composition of your deck, your position in the current shuffle and the current turn number. I like that focus in skill although I dislike that games with Baker or other coin token cards will or might slow down games as you have so much more options each turn.

Other stuff: The art is horrible (sorry!) and the expansion icon is a sextant (?). Maybe a card named Astronomer will come out!?

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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #204 on: June 06, 2013, 08:49:46 am »
+1

Baker will be excellent for edge cases.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #205 on: June 06, 2013, 12:42:15 pm »
0


Other stuff: The art is horrible (sorry!) and the expansion icon is a sextant (?). Maybe a card named Astronomer will come out!?
Expansion icon appears to be a compass, which is the symbol of the Freemasons. As such, and since "Mason" is certainly a reasonable occupation to be a guild, I expect to see a "Mason" card, or at least (to follow-up the Simpson's reference in the flavor paragraph) a "Stone-cutter"
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #206 on: June 06, 2013, 01:54:12 pm »
+1

Qvist's Ghost Ship talk gets me thinking about an interesting (semi-)subtlety about Baker and probably coin token producers in general.

You never want to put Baker off for next turn, because hey you can still spend the coin next turn if you really want, so you're only restricting your options. Edge cases aside, you would always rather play it this turn or else you don't care. Okay most non-junk cards are better earlier than later, because you want to get them in before the next reshuffle. But Baker goes beyond that: it's considerably stronger on T3 than T4 in a way most cards aren't. (In fact if you open Baker/nothing, a T3 Baker guarantees a $5 turn.)

Does this mean that Baker is a deceptively strong target for Scheme, Scav, etc? Guess we'll see.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #207 on: June 06, 2013, 08:15:44 pm »
+1

I just played this in a proxied up Guilds game, and wow it is good in terminal non-draw BM (specifically Merchant Ship). I crushed, the tokens helped so much, especially in the end game.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #208 on: June 09, 2013, 04:55:52 pm »
+5

Interesting note, Pirate Ship is now a card that doesn't fully function just by reading the text on the card.  That's because it says to "take a Coin token" but says nothing about putting it on the PS mat.  Without clarification from the rulebooks, you might expect to be able to spend the coin tokens taken by PS like you would spend the coin tokens received through Baker.  However, the text on the cards does not allow the reverse to happen; you would not expect that playing Butcher would increase the value of your Pirate Ships by $2 because the card specifies that it only counts coin tokens taking by PS itself.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #209 on: June 09, 2013, 06:51:18 pm »
+3

Interesting note, Pirate Ship is now a card that doesn't fully function just by reading the text on the card.  That's because it says to "take a Coin token" but says nothing about putting it on the PS mat.  Without clarification from the rulebooks, you might expect to be able to spend the coin tokens taken by PS like you would spend the coin tokens received through Baker.  However, the text on the cards does not allow the reverse to happen; you would not expect that playing Butcher would increase the value of your Pirate Ships by $2 because the card specifies that it only counts coin tokens taking by PS itself.

Man, you could even spend those coin tokens without weakening your Pirate Ships.
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #210 on: June 09, 2013, 07:18:48 pm »
0

Well, I like what Lynell Ingram did for princess, but sorry baker is just awful. Cartoon art can be great, but not in that "amateur" way.
As horrible as some of this art is, I am just glad that guilds is finally here, and the cards are as sweet as they are.  Should be really fun cards, that also make you think about every card in your deck and where they are.  Super excited!
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2013, 10:16:46 am »
0

Interesting note, Pirate Ship is now a card that doesn't fully function just by reading the text on the card.  That's because it says to "take a Coin token" but says nothing about putting it on the PS mat.  Without clarification from the rulebooks, you might expect to be able to spend the coin tokens taken by PS like you would spend the coin tokens received through Baker.  However, the text on the cards does not allow the reverse to happen; you would not expect that playing Butcher would increase the value of your Pirate Ships by $2 because the card specifies that it only counts coin tokens taking by PS itself.

Man, you could even spend those coin tokens without weakening your Pirate Ships.

Hilariously enough, if you're a person who thinks Pirate Ship needs to be buffed then this might be about right. (I'm not one of those people though.)
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #212 on: June 21, 2013, 12:44:50 pm »
0

I don't have guilds yet, but when i saw the setup for baker, i was like "hey, we could play dominion irl and everyone gets a coin token that's usually used for pirate ship or trade route, and start the game from there!" :-)

I will get the german edition of it when it gets released, but cornucopia and intrigue first
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #213 on: June 21, 2013, 04:31:23 pm »
0

Interesting note, Pirate Ship is now a card that doesn't fully function just by reading the text on the card.  That's because it says to "take a Coin token" but says nothing about putting it on the PS mat.  Without clarification from the rulebooks, you might expect to be able to spend the coin tokens taken by PS like you would spend the coin tokens received through Baker.  However, the text on the cards does not allow the reverse to happen; you would not expect that playing Butcher would increase the value of your Pirate Ships by $2 because the card specifies that it only counts coin tokens taking by PS itself.
Man, you could even spend those coin tokens without weakening your Pirate Ships.
I want to try this just to see how obnoxious it gets...
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Re: Preview #1: Baker
« Reply #214 on: June 29, 2013, 03:39:14 pm »
0

baker's interaction with mint was discussed earlier in the thread in the context of fool's gold, but i think that the starting coin token has the power to make run of the mill mint openings far more powerful. being able to open mint/silver with either 4/3 or 5/2 strikes me as being quite useful. i would be curious to hear what the simulators have to say about whether baker's boost to simple mint strategies is able to offset it's boost to other strategies on the board.
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momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.
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