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Author Topic: Americans and draws  (Read 27511 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2013, 02:18:26 pm »
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How fun would Dominion be, if instead of counting the VPs, you would get one VP 2.0 for every 50 VP you have and then you counted the VP 2.0s to see who wins? Also, you could remove the rule about the player with the fewer turns winning ties.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2013, 03:23:28 pm »
+1

How fun would Dominion be, if instead of counting the VPs, you would get one VP 2.0 for every 50 VP you have and then you counted the VP 2.0s to see who wins? Also, you could remove the rule about the player with the fewer turns winning ties.

This is such a strawman argument, wow.

Tic tac toe is not boring because of ties; it's boring because the entire game is solved. All possible game states are easily summarised in a single xkcd comic! Giving p1 100% win rate (maybe by letting him make 2 first moves) does not make the game more interesting. The outcome is still predetermined.

Chess, add mentioned, had a high rate of draws. But the way the game plays is not predetermined. It may result in draws often, but it gets there a different way every time. That's why it's still interesting.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2013, 03:25:29 pm »
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Oh, and that Dominion variant is not less interesting because there are more ties. It is just more frustrating because it has been artificially stunted such that large differences in performance are meaningless.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2013, 04:08:17 pm »
+1

You can always break ties in Dominion by tosing a coin. Then, there is value in getting a tie if you were losing because you suddenly have a 50% chance of winning, and you were ahead and could not close it with a win and settled for a tie, then too bad, you lost 50%. I don't see that the changed game has ANY more depth or is any more fun the game as it is now, but if the name "tie", "draw", "shared victory" or "shared loss" is too annoying for someone, then this should take care of it with minimum extra effort and time. You can toss a VP token if you want the entire game to be included in a Dominion box.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2013, 04:17:08 pm »
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But both sides of a VP token look the same, so that doesn't work.
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Awaclus

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2013, 04:35:31 pm »
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Oh, and that Dominion variant is not less interesting because there are more ties. It is just more frustrating because it has been artificially stunted such that large differences in performance are meaningless.
It is indeed more frustrating, but that doesn't have anything to do with artificiality or meaninglessness and has everything to do with the fact that winning it is almost impossible, because most of the time nobody wins.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2013, 06:55:21 pm »
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Your argument was that the game is less interesting if ties are common.  You used tic-tac-toe as an example, versus Dominion.  And you argued that tic-tac-toe lacked depth because ties are common.

People pointed out that it is not a fair comparison because Dominion is very deep and tic-tac-toe is not.  And note that tic-tac-toe does not lack depth due to ties, but because it is an extremely simple game that is SOLVED.  Chess was brought up as a counter-example as another game where ties are common.  Do you argue the depth in Chess?

We are talking about depth.  Your Dominion variant has just as much depth as regular Dominion, because the core game mechanics are exactly the same.  The fact that ties are more common in your variant does NOT change the depth of the game.  Likewise, the game is just as interesting, because the gameplay is still the same.  But the game is much more FRUSTRATING, because the final score can be a draw EVEN THOUGH one player vastly outperforms the other(s).  Someone could piledrive the Provinces and still end up tying.

The problem with the variant is NOT that ties are common, but that ties are common in spite of a large skill disparity.  And that does not make the game less deep or less interesting.  It just makes the game more frustrating.  The frustration is not because winning is difficult, but because you can't win even when you do way better.  There is a difference.

And yes, it is artificial and meaningless because you impose a filter on the scoring mechanism that makes no sense at all.  Yeah, draws are horrible if they occur even though one player is much better at the game.  That doesn't say anything at all about draws in general.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2013, 08:00:10 pm »
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if we are going to discuss draws in dominion i would love to see some data on how often and when they actually occur. i drew 1.85% of my ~5300 2-player games on isotropic, 1.87% from seat 1 and 1.83% from seat 2. so i drew slightly less often when i had control over that decision, but i am not sure how any of this compares to the community at large.

i have my guesses on the results, but i would be interested to see:
- draws in regular games versus alt-vp, colony, and vp chip games
- draws in BM vs. engine games
- whether the lower or higher ranked player in the game is P2 for the draw
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2013, 11:43:04 pm »
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But both sides of a VP token look the same, so that doesn't work.

As an aside I like to use a VP token to decide who goes first. I just flip or spin it on the table and whoever it ends up pointing at starts the game.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2013, 01:42:42 am »
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But both sides of a VP token look the same, so that doesn't work.

As an aside I like to use a VP token to decide who goes first. I just flip or spin it on the table and whoever it ends up pointing at starts the game.

I always take a province and an estate (or something else if I feel like it), mix them up, then have the other person choose one.  If they choose the province, they go first.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Davio

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2013, 05:05:49 am »
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if we are going to discuss draws in dominion i would love to see some data on how often and when they actually occur. i drew 1.85% of my ~5300 2-player games on isotropic, 1.87% from seat 1 and 1.83% from seat 2. so i drew slightly less often when i had control over that decision, but i am not sure how any of this compares to the community at large.

i have my guesses on the results, but i would be interested to see:
- draws in regular games versus alt-vp, colony, and vp chip games
- draws in BM vs. engine games
- whether the lower or higher ranked player in the game is P2 for the draw
I drew ~2% of my ~4100 games, slightly more as 1st player, but a negligible amount more (just 5 games).
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Awaclus

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2013, 07:14:00 am »
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Your argument was that the game is less interesting if ties are common.  You used tic-tac-toe as an example, versus Dominion.  And you argued that tic-tac-toe lacked depth because ties are common.

People pointed out that it is not a fair comparison because Dominion is very deep and tic-tac-toe is not.  And note that tic-tac-toe does not lack depth due to ties, but because it is an extremely simple game that is SOLVED.  Chess was brought up as a counter-example as another game where ties are common.  Do you argue the depth in Chess?
It does lack depth, but that's not because ties are common - it's the reason why ties are common. Ties are much less common in casual level chess than pro level chess, because the difference in skill is bigger. In pro games, the difference in skill is smaller, but it's still obviously there. The reason for chess's high tie rate is not lack of depth though.
Quote
We are talking about depth.  Your Dominion variant has just as much depth as regular Dominion, because the core game mechanics are exactly the same.  The fact that ties are more common in your variant does NOT change the depth of the game.  Likewise, the game is just as interesting, because the gameplay is still the same.  But the game is much more FRUSTRATING, because the final score can be a draw EVEN THOUGH one player vastly outperforms the other(s).  Someone could piledrive the Provinces and still end up tying.

The problem with the variant is NOT that ties are common, but that ties are common in spite of a large skill disparity.  And that does not make the game less deep or less interesting.  It just makes the game more frustrating.  The frustration is not because winning is difficult, but because you can't win even when you do way better.  There is a difference.

And yes, it is artificial and meaningless because you impose a filter on the scoring mechanism that makes no sense at all.  Yeah, draws are horrible if they occur even though one player is much better at the game.  That doesn't say anything at all about draws in general.
Maybe you were talking about depth, but I wasn't. I was talking about difficulty. The game is much more frustrating, because it's much more difficult to win: even if you're a very good player, you still end up not winning most of the time. The same can be said about the video game I Wanna Be The Guy, which is extremely difficult, so even if you're a very good player, you still end up not winning most of the time. And while watching extremely skilled players beating I Wanna Be The Guy is interesting, playing the game is not, because I'm not extremely skilled and there's no way I can beat it, and knowing that I'm going to fail anyway is not interesting. And it's not interesting to play a game that's way too easy, either. For me, about 1 retry required for winning the game is a pretty good level of difficulty, and I'm sure that some others prefer more difficult games. In 2-player board games, it's pretty close to that on average assuming that I'm an average player (which is true for most board games).

Of course it is artificial and meaningless. But it doesn't matter that it's artificial and meaningless. J. S. Bach composed a lot of artificial and meaningless songs, but some of those songs are pretty good anyway. Just because something is artificial and meaningless doesn't mean it's bad, my Dominion variant is bad for whole other reasons.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 07:24:13 am by Awaclus »
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StrongRhino

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2013, 01:11:12 pm »
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But both sides of a VP token look the same, so that doesn't work.

As an aside I like to use a VP token to decide who goes first. I just flip or spin it on the table and whoever it ends up pointing at starts the game.

I always take a province and an estate (or something else if I feel like it), mix them up, then have the other person choose one.  If they choose the province, they go first.
Bah. I throw them up in the air, and whoever gets the most goes first, like all of us real pros do
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soulnet

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2013, 07:27:32 pm »
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I've never won the arcade version of Tetris, Pac-Man or Wonder Boy (until emulators in which you can save the game) and I had plenty of fun playing them as a kid. And I never beat my sister in law in chess (NEVER, she is regional champion and I'm just a casual player) and I can still have fun playing with her.

And the best game in the world has no winner or loser.
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dondon151

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2013, 08:10:48 pm »
+1

And the best game in the world has no winner or loser.

... Calvinball?
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2013, 08:12:01 pm »
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And the best game in the world has no winner or loser.

... Calvinball?

I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

liopoil

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2013, 08:16:40 pm »
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what? calvinball may be the best game in the world, but it certainly has a winner and a loser...
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2013, 08:23:10 pm »
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I've never won the arcade version of Tetris, Pac-Man or Wonder Boy (until emulators in which you can save the game) and I had plenty of fun playing them as a kid. And I never beat my sister in law in chess (NEVER, she is regional champion and I'm just a casual player) and I can still have fun playing with her.

And the best game in the world has no winner or loser.

Unless you tied the computer in Tetris, Pac-Man, or Wonder Boy, I'm not sure how those apply to this argument you all are having.  Unless you are defending the "draws suck" argument, since what I'm getting out of all of this is winning/losing = more fun than ties.

On a side note: ironic to me is that the win/lose vs. tie argument at one point fell into Americans vs. Europeans (or the World), using soccer as the ultimate example.  But there is a sport where I think the argument gets flipped on its head: auto racing.  Americans love NASCAR (extremely dull for most of the event, just driving in circles, waiting for crashs; like waiting for goals in soccer), while Europeans (and everyone else) love F1 (curves, curves everywhere, non-stop action; like what Americans want in sports with scoring).

NASCAR : F1 :: Soccer : Football

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2013, 08:27:30 pm »
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americans love NASCAR? no... I don't think so...
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2013, 08:29:25 pm »
+1

To me F1 is rather: Cars drive in circles. You can't wish that someone crashes because that would be pretty bad. Nothing happens.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 08:38:00 pm by Watno »
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2013, 08:36:28 pm »
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americans love NASCAR? no... I don't think so...

Oh yessss we do.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2013, 08:44:02 pm »
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Unless you tied the computer in Tetris, Pac-Man, or Wonder Boy, I'm not sure how those apply to this argument you all are having.  Unless you are defending the "draws suck" argument, since what I'm getting out of all of this is winning/losing = more fun than ties.

I was counterargumenting the fact that impossibility of win is incompatible or has an inherent negative impact on the fun.
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2013, 08:59:31 pm »
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Unless you tied the computer in Tetris, Pac-Man, or Wonder Boy, I'm not sure how those apply to this argument you all are having.  Unless you are defending the "draws suck" argument, since what I'm getting out of all of this is winning/losing = more fun than ties.

I was counterargumenting the fact that impossibility of win is incompatible or has an inherent negative impact on the fun.

Gotcha.  That makes sense, and I agree.
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Awaclus

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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2013, 05:36:48 am »
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I've never won the arcade version of Tetris, Pac-Man or Wonder Boy (until emulators in which you can save the game) and I had plenty of fun playing them as a kid. And I never beat my sister in law in chess (NEVER, she is regional champion and I'm just a casual player) and I can still have fun playing with her.

And the best game in the world has no winner or loser.
Then you are obviously one of those people who like more difficult games than I do. What's the best game in the world?
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Re: Americans and draws
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2013, 09:25:09 am »
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If we actually want to do something about ties in football, there are no real good ways to deal with it. A regular game lasts 90 minutes. In knockout systems, two halfs of 15 minutes are added with a penalty shootout as a last resort. Neither is very appealing. Adding that much extra time just makes the players more tired and the game while tense less skilled in the end. And the penalty shootout is pretty much a lottery. I don't think there really is a way that is clearly better.

Can't find the source right now but I think I remember that your Bondscoach once suggested to change the rules that Golden Goal is reintroduced, but additionally during extension every five minutes each team has to retire a player from the pitch (until it's one on one). This sounded like gladiator fights to me.

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