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[rinkworks]

I've been thinking a lot about Highway lately and realizing what a smartly designed card it is.  Generally I'm down on cards that only activate in the presence of resources that very well might not be present elsewhere in the kingdom, like +Buy.  But Highway is beautifully designed in that, yeah, it does need +Buy to fully activate, but it's often worth it even without it.  In other words, Highway is balanced at $5 whether or not you're able to unlock its true power, which is no mean feat of game design.

Here's my reasoning.  Without +Buy, Highway is roughly a Peddler.  At a more standard cost, I'm convinced Peddler would cost $4, just because of how all the Peddler-with-a-bonus cards (Treasury, Market, and Bazaar) cost $5.  Some of these bonuses, though, go unused:  Market is sometimes worthwhile even if you don't use the +Buy.  Treasury is sometimes worthwhile even in the greening stage.  Bazaar is sometimes worthwhile even if you don't draw it with two terminals.  Admittedly, you usually want to make use of the bonuses on all three of these cards, and they're relatively weak uses of $5 if you don't.  But in any given actual game, they might still be worth buying.

Thus, Highway, the rough equivalent of a Peddler with no bonuses, is situationally worthwhile at $5.  And actually there is a small situational bonus anyhow, in the way that Highway allows you to do funky Remodel tricks on the low end and expand the reach of Smugglers, Talisman, Feast, University, etc, on the high end.

So I'm going to go ahead and assert that Highway is weak and situational but perfectly balanced at $5 in the absence of +Buys.  When there ARE +Buys, however, then it really pops.  But does it really pop in a way that Bridge doesn't?  Bridge is a $4 card, and it can still be spammed (with Villages or TR/KC) to dramatic effect.  So why would Highway be underpriced at $5 if it can do the same thing?  As a non-terminal, it's easier to spam, but it doesn't provide $, and you need to collide your Highway stack with your +Buy source to activate it.  $5 still seems like the right price.

As I say, an amazing feat of game design.

Edit: Ninja'ed on many points.  That's what I get for being longwinded.

[Jimmmmm]

If you compare Bridge and Highway, Bridge wants extra actions, Highway wants extra buys. If each is missing what they want, the mega-turns they are both itching to do are not going to happen. Of course, even then they are both reasonable for their price. As has been said, Highway is comparable to Peddler. Bridge, if you use its extra buy, is essentially a terminal gold. I think where Highway really shines (edit for clarity: in comparison with Bridge) is with Workshop/Remodel/Swindler etc, as it can be much easier to get everything significantly cheaper, and you still have an action to burn after doing so.

[dan11295]

Scheme+Ghost Ship sure makes for some tedious games. Just played this game http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/24/game-20111024-175140-d1bf4e9d.htmlwith the following cards: Border Village, Chapel, Colony, Familiar, Farmland, Gardens, Ghost Ship, Hamlet, Platinum, Potion, Saboteur, Scheme, and Vault

At one point I played Ghost Ship 8 turns in a row on my opponent. Even with Chapel, that combo combined with Familar and Saboteur made for a rather unfun game.

[Copernicus]

Scheme fits strongly into four different decks-

* Attack!  A good $5 or $6 attack that is worth playing every turn.  Use multiple schemes and moneys and just keep it rolling.  I haven't looked at density requirements, but I think three schemes are slightly overkill for getting that card every turn, but two might not be enough.  Probably the most basic use for Scheme.  Can be used with other strong actions, it's just there aren't that many out there that compare with attacks.

* King's Court combo.  Use multiples of each to set up a constant five to six card hand.

* Golem.  Scheme *2 + Golem + 2 good actions is enough to play at least one and maybe two of those actions every turn.

* Scrying Pool.  Seems like a natural fit for an average to good Pool deck.  Really useful if the deck only has 2-3 Scrying Pools.


I haven't tried Scheme/Tactician yet.  I think it would also be strong, as it allows for a Tactician every other turn.

[ChaosRed]

I have been getting my ass kicked with Hinterland all day. Literally losing 5 in a row.

Scheme/King's Court was right there, I just never trust KC or TR, but I guess with Scheme, you can set it up nicely, and I lost really badly, not recognizing that obvious fact (I kept scheming my Highways, and by the way Highway might be an overrated card, I NEVER win with it).

Went for a Silk Road play with Working Village in another game and got my lungs handed to me.

I am, quite possibly, the worst Hinterlands player on iso right now, I specifically bias the games towards it to learn the set and promptly get THRASHED. Ugly. Terrible.

[ftl]

Well, just a few posts up a few of us made comments about Highways

If you didn't have extra buys, then scheming a highway is no different than playing a treasury. Did you have extra buys or gainers to go with the highways?

[LastFootnote]

It's interesting that, with the exception of cards that give +1 Buy, none of the Hinterlands cards really combo well with Highway. As I see it, the main advantage of Highway over Bridge is that you can chain a few before playing Feast/Workshop/Ironworks/Saboteur/Smugglers/University/Horn of Plenty without having to buy and activate a big +Actions/+Cards engine first.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I am, quite possibly, the worst Hinterlands player on iso right now, I specifically bias the games towards it to learn the set and promptly get THRASHED. Ugly. Terrible.

You might find it easier to learn the new cards in small amounts, rather than all at once. If you don't bias towards hinterlands, there will still be at least 1 hinterlands card in 90% of games, and an average of 2 (probably more because other people are biasing toward hinterlands...). Maybe learning that way is more manageable. There are a lot of complicated cards, and it may be too much to try to digest 5 of them per game.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

<a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/24/game-20111024-204023-3dfd97f2.html>Mean Mr Mustard plays a Workshop.
... gaining a Province.</a>

[paulbaxter]

<a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/24/game-20111024-204023-3dfd97f2.html>Mean Mr Mustard plays a Workshop.
... gaining a Province.</a>

lol--very nice.

With enough highways you could also do things like remodel/develop/remake your coppers into provinces.

[Jimmmmm]

Scheme seems to work fairly well with Forge, especially if your deck is quite clogged up when you buy it. Playing it multiple turns in a row can really fix your deck up.

[Nihnoz]

It's interesting that, with the exception of cards that give +1 Buy, none of the Hinterlands cards really combo well with Highway. As I see it, the main advantage of Highway over Bridge is that you can chain a few before playing Feast/Workshop/Ironworks/Saboteur/Smugglers/University/Horn of Plenty without having to buy and activate a big +Actions/+Cards engine first.

It's definitely a card that would feel more at home in prosperity.

[jonts26]

A couple very minor thoughts on scheme:

1. Scheme is without a doubt the most effective bane card of all time. Why yes, I think I will return the scheme to the top of my deck.

2. Scheme is completely ineffectual against a minion deck (Though it might help get one kickstarted). I find this to be thematically amusing. I'll send out my minions to thwart my opponents schemes.

[DStu]

Scheme fits strongly into four different decks-

* Attack!  A good $5 or $6 attack that is worth playing every turn.  Use multiple schemes and moneys and just keep it rolling.  I haven't looked at density requirements, but I think three schemes are slightly overkill for getting that card every turn, but two might not be enough.  Probably the most basic use for Scheme.  Can be used with other strong actions, it's just there aren't that many out there that compare with attacks.

* King's Court combo.  Use multiples of each to set up a constant five to six card hand.

* Golem.  Scheme *2 + Golem + 2 good actions is enough to play at least one and maybe two of those actions every turn.

* Scrying Pool.  Seems like a natural fit for an average to good Pool deck.  Really useful if the deck only has 2-3 Scrying Pools.


I haven't tried Scheme/Tactician yet.  I think it would also be strong, as it allows for a Tactician every other turn.

Failed to set it up yesterday, basically because I trashed to late, but I guess Scheme should be one of the better activators for Conspirator.

[ftl]

Failed to set it up yesterday, basically because I trashed to late, but I guess Scheme should be one of the better activators for Conspirator.

That sounds perfect. Start each turn by playing two Schemes and then returning them to the top of the deck - presto, every Conspirator for the rest of the game is activated!

[Robz888]

And then of course it dawned on me that the real strength of Develop was the ability to set up a combo and place it on top of the deck.

Here's a Develop combo I'm proud of: I developed an Ill-Gotten Gains into a Gold and a Remodel. They go on top of the deck, and next turn I Remodel my Gold into a Province.

In another game, I suffered mightily as my opponent purchased an IGG, then Developed the IGG into a Border Village and another Develop, and gained another IGG from the Border Village. He repeated this over and over until I had most of the curses and the game ended on piles (BV, Curses, IGGs).

I've also had some success Developing 4's that have overstayed their welcome into Duchies and Silvers late in the game.

Edit: Oops! My first post and I am already a liar. Thanks for pointing out that you couldn't get a Develop from an IGG. My opponent had so many Develops, though... must have been buying them.

FLAG-23160

[Davio]

Develop is a $3 card, IGG is a $5 card, how was he able to Develop IGG into Develop?
He must have gotten a $4 cost from Developing an IGG.

[guided]

Yes, Border Village is the exact reason I suggested a while ago that Develop might be an even stronger card at $4 cost in certain situations.

[ChaosRed]

You might find it easier to learn the new cards in small amounts, rather than all at once. If you don't bias towards hinterlands, there will still be at least 1 hinterlands card in 90% of games, and an average of 2 (probably more because other people are biasing toward hinterlands...). Maybe learning that way is more manageable. There are a lot of complicated cards, and it may be too much to try to digest 5 of them per game.

Thanks for this, I regret to admit though there were only 2 or 3 HL cards on the board. I think I need to confront the reality that I am not a good player. Many of the games were not even close.

Well, just a few posts up a few of us made comments about Highways
If you didn't have extra buys, then scheming a highway is no different than playing a treasury. Did you have extra buys or gainers to go with the highways?

Yeah Margrave was there, which I used, but I only bought one. Again, I think I'm just a poor player. At several times yesterday I made poor decisions, which cost me a Province, not just in purchasing either, but in actually executing the hand in front of me.

Farmland purchasing for example, I was an idiot.

I need basic practice, but you can't get in isotropic, it's not friendly to new players. I was getting my lungs handed to me in 15 turns, very discouraging.

[ChaosRed]

You might find it easier to learn the new cards in small amounts, rather than all at once. If you don't bias towards hinterlands, there will still be at least 1 hinterlands card in 90% of games, and an average of 2 (probably more because other people are biasing toward hinterlands...). Maybe learning that way is more manageable. There are a lot of complicated cards, and it may be too much to try to digest 5 of them per game.

Thanks for this, I regret to admit though there were only 2 or 3 HL cards on the board. I think I need to confront the reality that I am not a good player. Many of the games were not even close.

Well, just a few posts up a few of us made comments about Highways
If you didn't have extra buys, then scheming a highway is no different than playing a treasury. Did you have extra buys or gainers to go with the highways?

Good advice, thanks, yeah Margrave was there, which I used, but I only bought one. Again, I think I'm just a poor player. At several times yesterday I made poor decisions, which cost me a Province, not just in purchasing either, but in actually executing the hand in front of me.

Farmland purchasing for example, I was an idiot.

I need basic practice, but you can't get in isotropic, it's not friendly to new players. I was getting my lungs handed to me in 15 turns, very discouraging.

[DStu]

I need basic practice, but you can't get in isotropic, it's not friendly to new players. I was getting my lungs handed to me in 15 turns, very discouraging.

I'm not sure. If you go somewhere else, and win there in 25 turns, and then come back here, you will be beaten in 15 turns again. Against which level do you play at the moment? Perhaps you should try to play some lower level by manual selecting them. I have the impression that I play more against higher levels at the moment than lower levels when auto-matching +-10levels, despite the fact that on the leaderboard there are a lot mot players on 22-32 than on 42-32. But the first ones are more active now.

[Jimmmmm]

Council Room would say you're an above-average player. I think when I had played about 100 games I had a few more losses than wins. Now I'm level 26 down from 28 (not an expert by any stretch, but intermediate I suppose). Just keep improving and pay attention to the game.

Edit: Also, double-post if you haven't noticed.

[Geronimoo]

You have the right attitude realizing you're a poor player. This will encourage you to try to play better. Once you think you're good, you stop learning. I still think of myself as a lousy player. Especially when it comes to building engines I have a lot to learn (I do know my Big Money )

[DStu]

(I do know my Big Money )

Come on, this is only because your simulator tells you how to play it

[ChaosRed]

Thank you all for the encouragement and advice. I particularly like the advice of maintaining the attitude that I am lousy, as motivation to improve. I have a similar mantra when I play soccer, and I find it works.

Jim, CR hasn't updated in a while, I've gone on a big losing streak since. I guess that's the new cards, but its also playing better players. Level 15 is a barrier for me, I reach it, then I seem to lose a lot, crashing down to 12 and 13. I guess that's about where I'm at.

And DStu, you are probably right that isotropic is a school of hard knocks, but it is still a school and you will eventually learn.

And Geronimoo, sometimes I think I have been losing a lot lately, forgetting some of the tenets that BM teaches you, which is you can't forget basic currency. In other words, that Border Village is a temptress, don't forget just how valuable a Gold is in your deck, for almost every engine out there, Gold is a boon.

Thanks again, everyone, I'll keep at it. I just won my first match today, using the IGG rush. It was close as Bishop was on the board, but I still got it.