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Author Topic: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list  (Read 147785 times)

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Copernicus

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2011, 09:51:53 am »
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Is Oasis/JoAT a subtle supercombo?  It may have been perfect shuffle luck but damn, this simple deck produced 4 P's by turn 11, and 6 by 14.

Jack of All Trades is actually a surprisingly strong card.  It counters discard and curse attacks, it creates money, and it trashes the first three estates quickly.  It's probably the newsness still talking, but I think I would buy one over every other $4 except Remake.

Like any "draw up to" card, it combos well with discarders (Inn, Oasis, Hamlet, Warehouse).
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Julle

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2011, 10:33:18 am »
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No one has mentioned Tunnel+Golem synergy yet. Buy 1 or 2 Golems but no other actions. There you go, every time you play Golem it goes trough your deck and you get Gold for every Tunnel in your deck. Don't know if it's a good strategy but sounds fun  :).
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olneyce

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2011, 10:39:11 am »
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Is Oasis/JoAT a subtle supercombo?  It may have been perfect shuffle luck but damn, this simple deck produced 4 P's by turn 11, and 6 by 14.

Jack of All Trades is actually a surprisingly strong card.  It counters discard and curse attacks, it creates money, and it trashes the first three estates quickly.  It's probably the newsness still talking, but I think I would buy one over every other $4 except Remake.

Like any "draw up to" card, it combos well with discarders (Inn, Oasis, Hamlet, Warehouse).
Jack of All Trades seems like a card that's great to have one of but absolute death to get two or more.  It's a nice early game enabler, but by the mid or end-game it's a pretty big drag.  It adds silver to the deck which can disrupt your ability to draw the whole deck, once it's wiped out the estates it doesn't trash anything else, and drawing back to five is often not that helpful.

It's a good and useful card - but I think you need to be in a game where all the various talents have some utility for it to be a strong purchase.  If you're getting it just for the trashing, the other trashers are better.  If you really want silver, you can just buy silver.  If you want to draw cards, any card that just lets you draw two is usually going to be better.  It's only when the talents synergize that it becomes great.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2011, 10:41:33 am »
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No one has mentioned Tunnel+Golem synergy yet. Buy 1 or 2 Golems but no other actions. There you go, every time you play Golem it goes trough your deck and you get Gold for every Tunnel in your deck. Don't know if it's a good strategy but sounds fun  :).
This may be akin to the Golem/Counting House deck, which is another really fun idea that I suspect is basically impossible to win with in practice (against a skilled opponent). The problem I see is that you probably need at least 2-3 Golems, and that takes a long time, and then you're limited to 1 Province per turn with still-mediocre coin density and no way to draw cards.

I agree it sounds fun though! If you manage to pull it off with good results I'd love to see a log.
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ackack

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #104 on: October 19, 2011, 10:56:46 am »
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Noble Brigand is a weird opener. Is it worth buying something which is likely to be nothing more than a terminal $1 for many turns in order to disrupt the opponent's open?
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Empathy

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #105 on: October 19, 2011, 11:12:58 am »
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Inn seems to be an overpriced hamlet. I suppose it might work in some late game combos, but that probably requires better card counting skills than I have.


Inn is incredibly powerful with cards like grand market, conspirator, minion ...

You can "lock your deck" while making a province a turn if you have enough action money to get 13. It also seems like a great university target.

Assuming for example you get a 6-4 GM split and some lonely market, just wait until you are *just about* to trigger a reschuffle (and hence have a nearly empty deck). Buy a first Inn to reschuffle all your money actions into your deck. Then buy Inn+province every turn.

I think you may have mis-read the card.  It doesn't shuffle in cards you've played this turn; only cards already in your discard.  So if you toss 4 GMs into your draw pile with an Inn, buying an Inn this turn won't put those GMs on your deck.

Nonetheless, strategically the general idea is right.  If you have, say, KCs and Bridges in your discard and are just at the end of your deck, buy an Inn and, voila, win next turn.

Hm, so you need more actions than expected. That starts making the lock unreliable. Although I guess just having a load of conspi and wishing wells (play half of them during the turn, return the other half with Inn) could work as a setup. It won,t give you enough for inn+province though. Add a university and it does, but that starts looking like a very specific board.

The one shot kill also works very well, though again, the crucial point is to buy the inn just before a reshuffle.
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biopower

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #106 on: October 19, 2011, 11:27:11 am »
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Inn is still great in the presence of cursing attacks; if you can recover the attack before the reshuffle, then you're going to be better off in the Cursing race. The best example is probably familiar, as buying inn can let you get that extra few curses next turn, if you've played your familiars before this turn.
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rrenaud

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2011, 11:28:26 am »
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No one has mentioned Tunnel+Golem synergy yet. Buy 1 or 2 Golems but no other actions. There you go, every time you play Golem it goes trough your deck and you get Gold for every Tunnel in your deck. Don't know if it's a good strategy but sounds fun  :).

The combo still works with one non golem action.  The golem still has to hunt to find the other action to play and will discard the deck every turn.  So it might work well with something like a councilroom (or wharf) to get big draw and a +buy.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #108 on: October 19, 2011, 11:35:56 am »
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No one has mentioned Tunnel+Golem synergy yet. Buy 1 or 2 Golems but no other actions. There you go, every time you play Golem it goes trough your deck and you get Gold for every Tunnel in your deck. Don't know if it's a good strategy but sounds fun  :).

The combo still works with one non golem action.  The golem still has to hunt to find the other action to play and will discard the deck every turn.  So it might work well with something like a councilroom (or wharf) to get big draw and a +buy.
This is a fair point. I'm going to go test this right... now! ;D
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #109 on: October 19, 2011, 11:40:07 am »
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No one has mentioned Tunnel+Golem synergy yet. Buy 1 or 2 Golems but no other actions. There you go, every time you play Golem it goes trough your deck and you get Gold for every Tunnel in your deck. Don't know if it's a good strategy but sounds fun  :).
The combo still works with one non golem action.  The golem still has to hunt to find the other action to play and will discard the deck every turn.  So it might work well with something like a councilroom (or wharf) to get big draw and a +buy.
The entire issue with Golem is the difficulty in getting 4+P early, especially if you're gonna dilute your buying power with Tunnels.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2011, 11:51:32 am »
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After some testing I am still thoroughly underwhelmed by Tunnel/Golem/Council Room. This is probably the best case scenario, with excellent shuffle luck (Silver/Silver/Potion/Council Room/Golem bought in 5 turns, good midgame draw luck), and even then its speed is only on par with single-Smithy.

More typically you don't get the key cards fast enough, and when you get them you see bad collisions between Golem and Council Room/Tunnels that routinely kill you. But: I will say if your goal is to deplete the Gold pile this strategy can do that for you, even if you don't win ;)
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #111 on: October 19, 2011, 12:05:53 pm »
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After some testing I am still thoroughly underwhelmed by Tunnel/Golem/Council Room. This is probably the best case scenario, with excellent shuffle luck (Silver/Silver/Potion/Council Room/Golem bought in 5 turns, good midgame draw luck), and even then its speed is only on par with single-Smithy.
Actually, it's [-]faster[/-] better, because you have 2 Duchies and 3? Tunnels to go with 4 Provinces. BM-Smithy doesn't.

Then again, I thought BM-Smithy was 4 Provinces @ 14? And BM-Smithy helped by opponent playing a Council Room every turn... ;)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 12:08:33 pm by Anon79 »
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Julle

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2011, 12:13:42 pm »
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After some testing I am still thoroughly underwhelmed by Tunnel/Golem/Council Room. This is probably the best case scenario, with excellent shuffle luck (Silver/Silver/Potion/Council Room/Golem bought in 5 turns, good midgame draw luck), and even then its speed is only on par with single-Smithy.

More typically you don't get the key cards fast enough, and when you get them you see bad collisions between Golem and Council Room/Tunnels that routinely kill you. But: I will say if your goal is to deplete the Gold pile this strategy can do that for you, even if you don't win ;)

The Council rooms doesn't sound like the best card for such a big deck. Maybe Salvager, Bishop or Remodel would do better.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2011, 12:15:41 pm »
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After some testing I am still thoroughly underwhelmed by Tunnel/Golem/Council Room. This is probably the best case scenario, with excellent shuffle luck (Silver/Silver/Potion/Council Room/Golem bought in 5 turns, good midgame draw luck), and even then its speed is only on par with single-Smithy.
Actually, it's [-]faster[/-] better, because you have 2 Duchies and 3? Tunnels to go with 4 Provinces. BM-Smithy doesn't.
I mean, I did say it was "on par" :P single-Smithy gets Duchies too, you know. Anyway, like I said, that game is an unlikely best case scenario, so you really have to compare it to single-Smithy's unlikely best case scenario rather than its average performance.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #114 on: October 19, 2011, 12:16:49 pm »
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The Council rooms doesn't sound like the best card for such a big deck. Maybe Salvager, Bishop or Remodel would do better.
I'm highly doubtful that any of these would be an improvement. Council Room's ability to draw a bunch of cards and add +Buy after Golem's discard fest is absolutely critical. If you would like to test your ideas, go right ahead.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #115 on: October 19, 2011, 12:19:33 pm »
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The Council rooms doesn't sound like the best card for such a big deck. Maybe Salvager, Bishop or Remodel would do better.
I'm highly doubtful that any of these would be an improvement. Council Room's ability to draw a bunch of cards and add +Buy after Golem's discard fest is absolutely critical. If you would like to test your ideas, go right ahead.
The problem is that CR (or any draw) will trigger a reshuffle, which is not what you want, as then you're locked out of golem for another reshuffle. OTOH, I don't know that the other stuff will be great shakes either.

DStu

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2011, 12:21:44 pm »
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The Council rooms doesn't sound like the best card for such a big deck. Maybe Salvager, Bishop or Remodel would do better.
I'm highly doubtful that any of these would be an improvement. Council Room's ability to draw a bunch of cards and add +Buy after Golem's discard fest is absolutely critical. If you would like to test your ideas, go right ahead.

What probably might be a good idea is adding a Remodel when the Tunnels have produced enough Gold, but that's of course now a 2.5 card combo already.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2011, 12:35:12 pm »
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The problem is that CR (or any draw) will trigger a reshuffle, which is not what you want, as then you're locked out of golem for another reshuffle. OTOH, I don't know that the other stuff will be great shakes either.
You're not locked out, since you have multiple Golems (if you're doing it right). Also you should have enough Gold that it's not the end of the world to draw nothing but Treasure for a turn or two. Getting the big draw with an extra buy is much more important than avoiding a reshuffle.


edit: To be sure, specific 3-card combos are not very useful to think about, but off the top of my head I'm figuring Council Room is arguably the best support for this particular strategy, so if even that doesn't work then it's simply not a good strategy. Anybody who has a better idea is welcome to test it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 12:38:17 pm by guided »
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ackack

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2011, 12:41:43 pm »
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Margrave is probably even better.

added: I suspect Golem is not worth the trouble of doing this with. If you have Golems for some other reason, then throwing a Tunnel or two in the deck seems like a nice idea. I've yet to play with Tunnel, it sounds a bit slower in the best case than I would have guessed. My feeling is that even when it's merely decent speed, though, the extra VPs it packs really add a lot.
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DStu

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #119 on: October 19, 2011, 12:48:14 pm »
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edit: To be sure, specific 3-card combos are not very useful to think about, but off the top of my head I'm figuring Council Room is arguably the best support for this particular strategy, so if even that doesn't work then it's simply not a good strategy. Anybody who has a better idea is welcome to test it.

One might think about doubleWharf. Should be a little riskier, as it important that (at least as long as you want to discard the Tunnels) that one of the Wharfs is either in your hand or in play (as duration) when you play the Golem. But you start with 7 cards to find the Golems, and have 3 buys. And don't help your opponent.
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Copernicus

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2011, 12:57:28 pm »
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So my quick testing of Jack of All Trades was kind of interesting.

It felt like it was fast for getting four Provinces.  Most of the time it was turn 12 or 13.  Once it was turn 14, and a few times it was by turn 11.  I'm wondering what the average turn is now, but I don't have access to a simulator at the moment.

However, after getting four Provinces, like a lot of Silver spam strategies, it slowed down a lot.  It usually took me 2-3 more turns before getting Province #5 and even more to get others after that.
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2011, 01:14:27 pm »
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My preliminary thinking is that Margrave is probably the strongest card in Hinterlands (besides perhaps Border Village).  It's the Council Room + Militia combo all in one card- obviously not with quite the card draw of CR, but do you really mind for only a $5?  And yet I don't think it belongs any higher than honorable mention as a $5 Attack (certainly displaces Rabble/Jester though)- chained Torturer is more disruptive to your opponent, and Minion counters it perfectly.

I have yet to buy Jack of All Trades, and have so far been of the mind it's really, really weak.  The problem is that its various functions trip over each other and conflict.  Gaining a Silver is not something I'm usually excited about (and doesn't do anything for this turn); the trashing really only works on Estates and you have to do it after you draw, so again it doesn't help your current hand; the "draw up to 5" bit looks like it could combo with stuff like Festival/Hamlet/Oasis, like Library or Watchtower, except that: a) the draw power is less than Watchtower, probably weak enough to doom consistent combos, and b) if you're getting all this Silver you're not going to be able to chain your Jacks, because they'll just draw you Silver and Copper that you can't get rid of.  I've avoided it every time, and have so far done well against opponents that went for JoaT.  Perhaps I'll be proven wrong?

One exception to the "I don't like getting Silver" general rule was a cute Trader/Stables game I played yesterday: Trader your Estates into two Silvers, buy lots and lots of Stables and leave your Coppers around for discarding.  No Gold necessary, five Provinces (and maybe a Duchy, I forget) by turn 15.  Hi-yo Silver!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:17:47 pm by chwhite »
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Fangz

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2011, 01:34:13 pm »
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edit: To be sure, specific 3-card combos are not very useful to think about, but off the top of my head I'm figuring Council Room is arguably the best support for this particular strategy, so if even that doesn't work then it's simply not a good strategy. Anybody who has a better idea is welcome to test it.

What about vault? Gives you the ability to discard Tunnels in hand, synergises well with Golds (one Gold + vault = Province), etc etc. You won't manage multiple province buys, but I imagine this can be pretty damn fast. Of course vault+tunnel alone is probably very strong.

Quote
My preliminary thinking is that Margrave is probably the strongest card in Hinterlands (besides perhaps Border Village).  It's the Council Room + Militia combo all in one card- obviously not with quite the card draw of CR, but do you really mind for only a $5?  And yet I don't think it belongs any higher than honorable mention as a $5 Attack (certainly displaces Rabble/Jester though)- chained Torturer is more disruptive to your opponent, and Minion counters it perfectly.

I really don't like comparing Margrave to Council room - that +4 cards instead of +3 cards is hardly nothing. If we consider council room as 'sacrifice 1 action to end up with a hand with 3 cards more than if you never played it', council room is a full 50% better in draw power than Margrave. And the +buy is generally not useful anyway. And the Margrave attack has a good claim to be one of the weakest attacks in the game.

In terms of the strongest cards in Hinterlands, well... It's hard to say, most of them can be mediocre or can be dazzling, depending on the board. In terms of broad usefulness, I'd say probably Develop or Oasis. Both have a good claim to #4 or #5 on the '5 best $3 cards' listing, IMHO. Haggle is also great, but only on boards with lots of good cards.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:39:15 pm by Fangz »
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mypetrock

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2011, 01:40:24 pm »
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After some testing I am still thoroughly underwhelmed by Tunnel/Golem/Council Room. This is probably the best case scenario, with excellent shuffle luck (Silver/Silver/Potion/Council Room/Golem bought in 5 turns, good midgame draw luck), and even then its speed is only on par with single-Smithy.

More typically you don't get the key cards fast enough, and when you get them you see bad collisions between Golem and Council Room/Tunnels that routinely kill you. But: I will say if your goal is to deplete the Gold pile this strategy can do that for you, even if you don't win ;)

If you add Scheme, the combo fires every turn. Play Golem, Play Scheme, Play Council Room, Buy stuff, Scheme Golem back to the top of your deck.
Rinse, later, repeat.

mypetrock

Edit for grammar
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Fangz

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2011, 01:43:29 pm »
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Well, scheme is a combo unto itself. Golem/Scheme/Counting house is probably more efficient.
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