Topic: Just how bad are Goko's bots?? (Read 8315 times)

ragingduckd · « **on:** May 17, 2013, 04:55:02 pm »

I just played an experimental 8-game series against Goko's stronger bots (2 games each against Bottington, Conqueror, Defender, and Banker). The bots lost 1-7. I say "the bots lost," rather than "I won," because I was playing a strategy that you could teach to an illiterate meth-head. On each board, I chose the single strongest action card for Big Money and just played X-BM.

I did use a modicum of human intelligence: when to buy Duchies, what to discard against Margrave, etc. But that was about it... I played every action, even if I'd just drawn Island + $8 or both Witches at the bottom of my shuffle; I always bought Province > Gold > X-Action > Fool's Gold > Silver, adding Duchies when provinces got low; I ignored combos as straightforward as Beggar-Gardens; and I passed on Jester-BM lest I be compelled to make a judgement call. You could program that strategy with an ordered list of which X-Action to prefer and a few dozen lines of Dominiate code for issues like when to green and what Jack should discard and trash.

The only game the bots won was when I went straight Witch-BM and ignored Border Village, Hunting Party, Caravan, and Fishing Village. In one particularly unimpressive game, Banker Bot picked up 5 Kings Courts (all for $8+) along with several Treasuries, Cultists, and Monuments, and still managed to lose to Cultist-BM.

Are Goko's bots really that bad? Eight games is a small sample, but doubt I could tolerate doing this for hours. Has anyone else tried a similar experiment?

I feel bad for new Dominion players who start out by playing against and learning from the bots. I remember getting my ass handed to me by Village Idiot Bot when I first started playing. Even worse, I remember trying to learn from those losses... like the time a bot crushed me by buying all the Spies.

Goko must aware of their bots' incompetence. Either they don't know how to fix it or they're too busy with other problems. What would it take to write a BM bot that was more-or-less compatible with their system and just hand it to them?

heron · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:03:26 pm »

I play games against the goko bots where I put arbitrary rules on myself, like no buying treasure, ignore chapel, don't buy gardens, you can only buy province even numbers of provinces each turn, or the only way you can get VP is through remodel or feast.

So, they beat me a reasonable amount of the time.

tolenmar · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:13:40 pm »

I'm no rookie at this game, but the bots kick my butt four out of five games. Even when I try your Big Money strategy.
I'm not the only one complaining about it either. A few of my friends have also gotten tired of always losing to the bots.
When I play them, they get phenomenal draw luck, and I don't stand a chance.

Its why I didn't play the bots for almost three months, there was no point. Now I can squeeze out a few wins on ocassion, but not many. Maybe you just got lucky?

DG · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:17:59 pm »

If you stick to simple cards they do better. They do better in multiplayer as well. I play them 3 player with hinterlands and base, giving them enough opportunity to get jack-of-all-trades and stables in motion.

Kirian · « **Reply #4 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:24:01 pm »

Quote from: ragingduckd on May 17, 2013, 04:55:02 pm

Goko must aware of their bots' incompetence. Either they don't know how to fix it or they're too busy with other problems. What would it take to write a BM bot that was more-or-less compatible with their system and just hand it to them?

There are at least two simulators out there (though I don't believe rspeer's is maintained any longer) that do much better than the Goko bots. They're open source, so the Goko team could have taken them and used them at any time.

DG · « **Reply #5 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:35:08 pm »

The Goko bots can adapt their strategies for any kingdom but simulators have kingdom specific buy rules and those buy rules are created by humans. I don't think the bots do that badly, considering, although there are obviously a lot of simple improvements that can be made (like gaining tunnels ahead of estates when playing workshop/gardens).

WanderingWinder · « **Reply #6 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:38:35 pm »

Really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really bad.

Even with such restrictions, I would actually say I would be reasonably embarrassed to 1-7 them, though obviously I am probably still going to lose once in a blue moon, and while that ought to be less than 12.5%, well, the one has to come up some time.

jsh357 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 17, 2013, 05:49:17 pm »

They do pretty well when they go for a particular strategy (mainly BM). I have found Banker Bot to be the strongest generally. Usually, no, they're not much of a challenge.

jonts26 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 17, 2013, 06:05:19 pm »

The bots are generally poor. But I've played a number of games with them and have been surprised a couple of times. I remember one game with IW/Gardens going third. I lost pretty badly as both bots executed what I think were roughly optimal strategies to drain piles in a heartbeat. Generally, when I've lost to them though it's on 'boring' boards. Basically when more simple big money strategies seem to dominate, the bots play fairly well. Not as well as a good human, but decent enough to pull out a win here and there. I don't think I've ever lost to them on an engine board.

SCSN · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2013, 06:17:28 pm »

If you need a real challenge, you can always play against yourself.

Don't expect to win or lose any rating points, though.

ragingduckd · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2013, 07:38:10 pm »

Quote from: SheCantSayNo on May 17, 2013, 06:17:28 pm

If you need a real challenge, you can always play against yourself.

Don't expect to win or lose any rating points, though.

Nicely done! SheCantSayNo is a tough opponent.

ragingduckd · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2013, 07:41:56 pm »

Quote from: DG on May 17, 2013, 05:35:08 pm

The Goko bots can adapt their strategies for any kingdom but simulators have kingdom specific buy rules and those buy rules are created by humans.

What algorithms do the Goko bots use then? Has Goko addressed this somewhere?

ragingduckd · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2013, 08:45:11 pm »

Quote from: tolenmar on May 17, 2013, 05:13:40 pm

I'm no rookie at this game, but the bots kick my butt four out of five games. Even when I try your Big Money strategy.

Don't play my BM strategy... it's crap. I was only trying it because it's a really easy thing to program a bot to do.

Big Money strategies can indeed be an good way to beat the bots, but it's worth reading a bit about how and when to do it. Even if you're a BM veteran, there are articles on this site that will improve your play a lot.

HiveMindEmulator's article on terminal-draw BM is an easy read with a lot of surprising information. I'd recommend it for newbies and veterans alike: http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/06/13/terminal-draw-big-money/

If that stuff's old hat to you, Wandering Winder has an excellent (and more advanced) series on BM and the other main deck types. Very valuable stuff for the more ambitious player: http://dominionstrategy.com/category/general-strategy/articles/

tolenmar · « **Reply #13 on:** May 17, 2013, 09:19:37 pm »

I've read those articles. I just said what I did because you say you beat the bots with that crap strategy 7 out of 8 times.
I'm lucky if I can win 1 out of 8.

But I can only play the bots with basic set, which apparently means I have no chance.

serakfalcon · « **Reply #14 on:** May 17, 2013, 09:43:56 pm »

Quote

But I can only play the bots with basic set, which apparently means I have no chance.

they are OK with just base set, but if they beat you more than 50/50 you probably aren't buying enough treasures

eHalcyon · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2013, 12:55:22 am »

Quote from: tolenmar on May 17, 2013, 09:19:37 pm

I've read those articles. I just said what I did because you say you beat the bots with that crap strategy 7 out of 8 times.
I'm lucky if I can win 1 out of 8.

But I can only play the bots with basic set, which apparently means I have no chance.

Maybe it means you need to work on identifying the best X for BMX and watching the timing on when to start greening and when to switch to Duchies.

Blueswan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2013, 02:53:29 am »

Seeing as I beat the bots fairly consistently, they must be pretty damn awful. The very few times I've played real humans I've lost pretty badly. I do enjoy playing the bots though - I would have to since 99% of my games have been against them.

Dsell · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2013, 03:37:56 am »

Quote from: serakfalcon on May 17, 2013, 09:43:56 pm

Quote
But I can only play the bots with basic set, which apparently means I have no chance.
they are OK with just base set, but if they beat you more than 50/50 you probably aren't buying enough treasures

For the longest time I was reading this as "treasuries" and I was just so confused in so many ways.

Powerman · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2013, 07:22:56 am »

The bots are actually pretty decent at Workshop - Gardens, good enough so I would be surprised if I won in 4P seat 4. They're decent at random Witch BM boards when they get 5/2.

Their biggest problem is they get distracted by shiny cards, such as Spy and Thief. I remember I played a game yesterday where I had a treasureless deck with Festival - Library, and the bot proceeded to buy 4 or 5 Thieves. So any time you can go for an engine, or they DO go for an engine, you're in good shape. But, pure base has a lot of no engine boards so they're decent at base.

Polk5440 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2013, 08:30:40 am »

I think the bots are one of Goko's best contributions to the online Dominion experience. They are great for beginners and provide a decent opponent for people new to the game to practice against. I would rather Goko be spending time improving almost anything else.

LastFootnote · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2013, 09:28:08 am »

Quote from: WanderingWinder on May 17, 2013, 05:38:35 pm

Really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really bad.

Even with such restrictions, I would actually say I would be reasonably embarrassed to 1-7 them, though obviously I am probably still going to lose once in a blue moon, and while that ought to be less than 12.5%, well, the one has to come up some time.

Not that you haven't earned it, but this just sounds like you're bragging. I'm a reasonably competent Dominion player and I lose to the bots frequently. Not nearly a majority of the time, mind you, but at least one in eight games. The bots are not really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really bad. They're really, really bad with some cards and quite competent with others.

Watno · « **Reply #21 on:** May 18, 2013, 09:42:59 am »

Quote from: Kirian on May 17, 2013, 05:24:01 pm

Quote from: ragingduckd on May 17, 2013, 04:55:02 pm
Goko must aware of their bots' incompetence. Either they don't know how to fix it or they're too busy with other problems. What would it take to write a BM bot that was more-or-less compatible with their system and just hand it to them?

There are at least two simulators out there (though I don't believe rspeer's is maintained any longer) that do much better than the Goko bots. They're open source, so the Goko team could have taken them and used them at any time.

I agree with DG that doesn't make the simulators better than the goko bots. They don't do the main challeneg, which is finding a good strategy. Of course Goko bots could be a lot better, but I don't think I know of any better Dominion AI. If you want to see a bad Dominion AI, try Androminion.

DG · « **Reply #22 on:** May 18, 2013, 12:42:54 pm »

The best purchasing AI was probably the Provincial AI that 'learnt' kingdoms by running repeated tests on many candidate strategies. Goko aren't going to go down that route. The best card play AI was probably the Geronimoo simulator. There are plenty of card play improvements that could be put into Goko including a lot of 'quick wins' that are probably worth reporting on Get Satisfaction (such as not using trader on treasures when the bot should be buying vp cards).

WanderingWinder · « **Reply #23 on:** May 18, 2013, 05:33:33 pm »

Quote from: LastFootnote on May 18, 2013, 09:28:08 am

Quote from: WanderingWinder on May 17, 2013, 05:38:35 pm
Really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really bad.

Even with such restrictions, I would actually say I would be reasonably embarrassed to 1-7 them, though obviously I am probably still going to lose once in a blue moon, and while that ought to be less than 12.5%, well, the one has to come up some time.

Not that you haven't earned it, but this just sounds like you're bragging. I'm a reasonably competent Dominion player and I lose to the bots frequently. Not nearly a majority of the time, mind you, but at least one in eight games. The bots are not really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really bad. They're really, really bad with some cards and quite competent with others.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

snorkelbike · « **Reply #24 on:** May 20, 2013, 08:30:01 pm »

I probably don't play my best game vs bots, but if I had to guess I'd say they beat me 1 out of every 6 or 7 games. My pro rank is about 6200. It's possible that at least once out of every 7 games I choose something worse than BM/X, though. Sometimes they are downright idiotic, but on a number of boards I think they're fairly competent.

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Author Topic: Just how bad are Goko's bots?? (Read 8315 times)