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[ragingduckd]

So I'm on Chrome and my extension was not updating to the most recent version.  My workaround was to uninstall and re-download from the Chrome store.  Ever since then though I don't seem to be able to connect to the salvager server.  I can't upload a new avatar and it won't connect to automatch.  Any suggestions?

Post your Salvager version number and full log.

[AHoppy]

2.5.1.3

And by full log, do you mean enable the extra logging option?

[ragingduckd]

2.5.1.3

And by full log, do you mean enable the extra logging option?

Probably not necessary, though it never hurts.  I just mean all the text in the Javascript console (Ctrl-Shift-J to open, then copy all of it).

I assume the other features are working?  There may be a SSL issue or something, but I'll know more when I see the log.

[AHoppy]

2.5.1.3

And by full log, do you mean enable the extra logging option?

Probably not necessary, though it never hurts.  I just mean all the text in the Javascript console (Ctrl-Shift-J to open, then copy all of it).

I assume the other features are working?  There may be a SSL issue or something, but I'll know more when I see the log.

All the other features are working.  It might be important to note that my school has a proxy on the internet which blocks some pages.  I have never had a problem with it until the newest update.

I logged in, tried uploading an avatar, then went to multiplayer and let it try to connect a couple times then went back to the home screen and copied the whole log to a .txt.

[ragingduckd]

I assume you won't mind a counter-rant.

You have NO evidence that Isotropish is a better indicator of skill than the Dominion Online (hereafter DO, aka Goko/MF, whatever) pro leaderboard.

To be fair, you can't actually get good evidence, since you can't calculate predictions off of the DO ratings, since they don't put out the information necessary. But to still be fair, you don't bother to do this either, and are explicitly too lazy to here, so it's not a particularly strong point in isotropish's favor, either. A LOT of what you describe in the page you link to isn't actually issues with the rating system, but issues with just other bugs with their software (e.g. it gets the winning player wrong, the 0 difference on some games, etc.). All your examples here, you don't actually have any evidence that your system is right in comparison - you say things like "person X thinks he's better, but he's much worse", except you don't accept this without assuming your conclusion that your system is better to start with.

Is TrueSkill a good system for Dominion? Well, maybe. It's a fine thing to try at least. But you know, that doesn't mean that THIS IMPLEMENTATION is any good. It seems to me that this implementation is actually pretty crummy - it moves way, way, way too slow. And this jives with some people's thoughts, because they just 'know' that player X is better than Y, and this conventional wisdom, which was true at some point, continues to be propagated, even if there's good evidence against it from recent results, because your system moves incredibly slowly. I'm pretty sure your parameters are just set to be far too stodgy. How can this be? Well, you don't actually have any data analyzing the predictions to tell you what good parameters are. But beyond this, why are your parameters set to what they are? Well, it's based on perceptions from the iso days. And the perceptions, which could have been wrong to start with, were based on a day-to-day increase in uncertainty level, which you got rid of. So.... these parameters are significantly stodgier than it was, even if those were correct. And I tend to think (though admittedly, this is just my gut feeling), that they were a little bit too stodgy to start with.

But the biggest issue I have is definitely that you're still going off of the 'level' thing, and not just rating rating. Since you're cutting off inactive players, I really really don't think this is needed.

So ok, it's obviously not that I think that the DO ratings are particularly good, and I definitely don't have any evidence other than my anecdotal feeling that they're better than yours. But for Pete's sake, you have zero evidence the other way either...

WW,

Isotropish isn't meant to be the One True Dominion Rating System.  It's just standard TrueSkill using Isotropic's parameter values.  If you can show that different parameters or a different system have superior predictive accuracy, I'll be happy to look at your analysis.  If it's compelling, I'll even implement your variant and host it for you.

Goko Pro is a disaster because it's TrueSkill that's been deliberately broken.  I haven't gone out of my way to prove that Goko Pro sucks because everyone already knows it sucks.  Nobody likes it.  Nobody defends it.  One forum member even went so far as to implement his own proprietary system as an alternative.

If you're now arguing that Goko Pro isn't so bad or that Isotropish should be changed or discontinued, then maybe you should do some analysis to demonstrate it.   I've already downloaded the logs, parsed the games, and aggregated the results for you.  Both that game data and the source code for Isotropish have been publicly available for over eight months.  How much easier can I make it for you?

Edit: Isotropish uses the TrueSkill parameters that Isotropic used, not Microsoft's TrueSkill defaults. I had forgotten about this.

[WanderingWinder]

If you're now arguing that Goko Pro isn't so bad or that Isotropish should be changed or discontinued, then maybe you should do some analysis to demonstrate it.   I've already downloaded the logs, parsed the games, and aggregated the results for you.  Both that game data and the source code for Isotropish have been publicly available for over eight months.  How much easier can I make it for you?

I'm not arguing any of that. I'm arguing that your rant which appears to boil down to "Goko Pro sucks in comparison to isotropish" is without basis. You make comments about the backwardsness of people who don't follow you, but you actually don't really give evidence for your position. In fact, there isn't evidence for your position except for anecdotal "it seems better" evidence. Admittedly, I don't have any better evidence the other way, and I'm not claiming that I do. My point is to get off your high horse.

It's actually very difficult for me to do analysis on the accuracy of isotropish, because in order to measure it accurately, I need to constantly scrape your board, since what is meaningful is the prediction AT THE TIME THE GAME IS PLAYED, and since you continuously update, you don't keep records to cross-reference. So it's actually really complicated. On the other hand, it should be relatively easy to measure accuracy at the time you rate a game, since you have to pull all the pertinent information anyway.
Of course, this isn't going to help in a comparison against the Pro mode ratings, which don't give predictions at all.

Goko Pro is a disaster because it's TrueSkill that's been deliberately broken.

This is just false. I don't know why you have some kind of strange fascination that rating systems having these kinds of features are somehow derivatives of TrueSkill. TS isn't the first rating system to incorporate these features, it isn't the best-known, it doesn't have the best reputation. You can say that their system is a derivative of Glicko (as is TS), or of Elo, or you can be most accurate and say it's their own system.

In any case, the point you're making here isn't relevant - Basically what you are saying is "It's TS except it's been changed", which would be bad if TS were perfect, but it isn't. So we don't actually know whether the changes are good or bad, which means that just because it's been changed doesn't mean it's worse.

I haven't gone out of my way to prove that Goko Pro sucks

Rating system has changed since this comment

because everyone already knows it sucks.

Again, I'm not saying that the Pro rankings are good. But most of these problems are entirely shared by isotropish "level". I can make a similarly scathing attack on a bunch of problems with TS (many of them will be the same attacks, actually). But yeah, there are definite problems with the current Pro ratings, nobody is arguing that.

Nobody likes it.  Nobody defends it.

This is both false and irrelevant

One forum member even went so far as to implement his own proprietary system as an alternative.

I didn't know that! Thanks for informing me!

Isotropish isn't meant to be the One True Dominion Rating System.  It's just standard TrueSkill with standard parameter values.

Oh, and one last thing here. Two of the parameters are set to their standard values (the 25 and (25/3)^2. But there are other parameters at play - how were they set? Doesn't "standard" TS have a time decay that isotropish doesn't? In any case, whether they're standard or not doesn't mean they're good.


But again, this isn't the point. The point isn't that your system is worse than the Pro system. The point is to not trumpet your superiority when you have no evidence of your superiority.

[hsiale]

It's actually very difficult for me to do analysis on the accuracy of isotropish, because in order to measure it accurately, I need to constantly scrape your board, since what is meaningful is the prediction AT THE TIME THE GAME IS PLAYED, and since you continuously update, you don't keep records to cross-reference.

I feel this is the most important point of this post. How hard would it be to make the log prettifier add some info to Pro games log (preferably Goko Pro and Isotropish level of both players before the game was started)? I guess it would be harder to do this with Goko Pro rating, though maybe Making Fun could be talked into doing this at their side.

[hsiale]

Salvager displays Isotropish level at the player list in the lobby. Is it possible to show it also in other places where Goko Pro is shown (automatch dialogue, player info box displayed when you click on avatar)?

Is it possible for the automatch to stop pairing together people who have "always use vp counter" and "always refuse vp counter" set (and, in case at least one of the players has either of those settings, force it in automatch table name)? It is very annoying when people turn off my counter, because of this usually when I have a choice between an automatch and non-automatch game I choose to decline automatch.

[EgorK]

It would be nice to add #vp option to automatch (on, off, do not care). Currently I just add people with #vpoff to blacklist for automatch only, but I think there are better ways to handle it

[LastFootnote]

Is it possible for the automatch to stop pairing together people who have "always use vp counter" and "always refuse vp counter" set (and, in case at least one of the players has either of those settings, force it in automatch table name)? It is very annoying when people turn off my counter, because of this usually when I have a choice between an automatch and non-automatch game I choose to decline automatch.

Dude, suck it up. The game was designed to be played without a point counter. I don't want #vpoff folks to become second-class citizens just because you feel you need the added crutch of a VP counter in every game you play.

[greatexpectations]

Dude, suck it up. The game was designed to be played without a point counter. I don't want #vpoff folks to become second-class citizens just because you feel you need the added crutch of a VP counter in every game you play.

seems to me a bit harsh, no? 'second class citizens' is quite dramatic while 'Dude, suck it up' and 'added crutch' just seem blatantly inflammatory. tables was asking a question for a personal preference in a thread littered with ambitious personal requests. i fail to see the problem.

[SCSN]

Is it possible for the automatch to stop pairing together people who have "always use vp counter" and "always refuse vp counter" set (and, in case at least one of the players has either of those settings, force it in automatch table name)? It is very annoying when people turn off my counter, because of this usually when I have a choice between an automatch and non-automatch game I choose to decline automatch.

Dude, suck it up.

Slurp, slurp!

The game was designed to be played without a point counter.

I know how it feels man. In my ongoing feud with Larry Page I keep telling him that the internet was designed to communicate sensitive military information, and that his company's products are consistently missing the point. For some odd reason this stubborn bonehead refuses to listen.

I don't want #vpoff folks to become second-class citizens just because you feel you need the added crutch of a VP counter in every game you play.

There's no reason to victimize yourself into second-class citizenship. It's already perfectly possible to put people who disable the point-counter on your blacklist, and in fact I've been consistently doing just that. It's no judgment about anyone, it's just preventing myself from facing experiences I don't enjoy. If anything this suggested automatch feature would make the whole process more civil, because right now the people on my blacklist have no way of getting off it if they happen to change their mind.

[LastFootnote]

There's no reason to victimize yourself into second-class citizenship. It's already perfectly possible to put people who disable the point-counter on your blacklist, and in fact I've been consistently doing just that. It's no judgment about anyone, it's just preventing myself from facing experiences I don't enjoy. If anything this suggested automatch feature would make the whole process more civil, because right now the people on my blacklist have no way of getting off it if they happen to change their mind.

Wow, that is awful when combined with the group blacklist function. If enough people do this, suddenly people who play #vpoff (the default way to play the game) are blacklisted by everybody that has, say, "Blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" enabled. Way to abuse that feature.

Playing the game by the rules means not using a point counter. If two people both want to play a casual game with a point counter, fine! But to be unable to be random matched in a Pro game with someone because you prefer to play the game by the rules? That's nuts! Really, Pro games shouldn't allow the VP counter at all.

I would think a top-level player like you would have learned to count VP by now. Makes me wonder.

[hsiale]

Is it possible for the automatch to stop pairing together people who have "always use vp counter" and "always refuse vp counter" set (and, in case at least one of the players has either of those settings, force it in automatch table name)? It is very annoying when people turn off my counter, because of this usually when I have a choice between an automatch and non-automatch game I choose to decline automatch.

Dude, suck it up. The game was designed to be played without a point counter. I don't want #vpoff folks to become second-class citizens just because you feel you need the added crutch of a VP counter in every game you play.

Dude, could you go your way and enjoy Dominion the way you like it instead of looking for a way to deny me enjoying it the way I like? I prefer playing with point counter, I prefer playing no game over playing a game without the counter and I have every right to do so. If you prefer playing without it, I'm completely fine with this, I simply don't want to play against you because it will be wasting time of one of us who'd have to play a game he doesn't like. You can play people who dislike the counter, people who don't care, people who don't know it exists. I guess there are enough of them to keep you busy, and if there aren't, well, tough luck, nothing I can do as without the feature I'm asking for I will automatch blacklist you after first time you turn my counter off, so all you can gain is a single game against a pissed off opponent, not sure if you enjoy such games, though looking at what you wrote I feel it's quite likely you do.

[SCSN]

There's no reason to victimize yourself into second-class citizenship. It's already perfectly possible to put people who disable the point-counter on your blacklist, and in fact I've been consistently doing just that. It's no judgment about anyone, it's just preventing myself from facing experiences I don't enjoy. If anything this suggested automatch feature would make the whole process more civil, because right now the people on my blacklist have no way of getting off it if they happen to change their mind.

Wow, that is awful when combined with the group blacklist function. If enough people do this, suddenly people who play #vpoff (the default way to play the game) are blacklisted by everybody that has, say, "Blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" enabled. Way to abuse that feature.

Sounds like yet another reason to make "#vpon" a native automatch option

Playing the game by the rules means not using a point counter.

You can italicize stuff all you want but that doesn't make it true.

I would think a top-level player like you would have learned to count VP by now. Makes me wonder.

I've tried counting a few times but whenever I arrived past "two" it always got so repetitive and boring.

[jsh357]

I know how LastFootnote/others feel because I used to be against point counter for the same reasons.  Nowadays, it's a major load off my mind.  I CAN count, but doing so ends up making the game take longer to play and causes both me and the opponent to make bad endgame decisions that make the game less interesting (which I see all the time vs users who aren't looking at the pt ctr).  If it's available to both players, I prefer the point counter and think it's roughly equivalent to one player IRL announcing the points constantly while he's playing, only without the possibility that he's lying or has a really shrill voice that makes you want to stab him in the eyeballs.

I'm still against stuff like drheld's extension that tracked the number of cards in each deck, though.  There's making things simpler and there's turning the game in to an open-book test.

[pingpongsam]

Playing the game by the rules means not using a point counter.

You can italicize stuff all you want but that doesn't make it true.

Correct, all this point counter crap has been hashed and rehashed ad-nauseum during the isotropic days.

There are no rules against any player keeping a written log of every bought card and thus extrapolating the current score.

That same player could then write a computer program to just enter the buys per player to discover that same score, still within the rules. Since a game becomes painfully slow and arduous when any number of players does this it becomes expedient to implement a point counter in the electronic version of the game and then allow players to arbitrarily disable it if they so prefer. Thus it requires 100% agreement that a shared, electronic, non-rule-breaking point counter may be used within the game. If someone is dead set on having one anyways, they can do it with pencil and paper and still be within the rules.

[sudgy]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

In other news, I think the vp counter on/off should be an option.  That solves everything.

[hsiale]

Playing the game by the rules means not using a point counter. If two people both want to play a casual game with a point counter, fine! But to be unable to be random matched in a Pro game with someone because you prefer to play the game by the rules? That's nuts! Really, Pro games shouldn't allow the VP counter at all.

It's your opinion. Now, if you want to force it on us, you can buy Goko Dominion from Making Fun and ban the points counter. Or you can make an extension which is so much better than Salvager that people switch to it even if it has no points counter. If you have neither cash nor skills to do one of those things, then your opinion will never become a fact. That's life. I have enough interesting opponents who want to play Dominion-with-points-counter, I don't have to play Dominion-without-points-counter and will do my best to avoid it because it's not a game I enjoy. If you enjoy it, I hope you find enough opponents for it, if not, nothing I can do with this, you should probably go and find a more popular game or work on making the one you like more popular (tip: this is best done by showing people the game you like is awesome, not by saying other games should be forbidden).

There is no such thing as "being randomly matched to play a Pro game". All the automatch does is suggesting the players that they may be interested in playing each other (because each of them goes through a filter the other player set). They both still have to agree to play the game, there's no rating penalization if you disagree. If you go through my filter but for some reason I don't want to play against you, Pro rating system is OK with this. And the most common reason for this is disagreement on vp counter, that's why I'm asking for the filter to be improved (this already more or less exists on standard tables, try joining a game with #vpon in table name and typing #vpoff).

[silverspawn]

There's no reason to victimize yourself into second-class citizenship. It's already perfectly possible to put people who disable the point-counter on your blacklist, and in fact I've been consistently doing just that. It's no judgment about anyone, it's just preventing myself from facing experiences I don't enjoy. If anything this suggested automatch feature would make the whole process more civil, because right now the people on my blacklist have no way of getting off it if they happen to change their mind.

Wow, that is awful when combined with the group blacklist function. If enough people do this, suddenly people who play #vpoff (the default way to play the game) are blacklisted by everybody that has, say, "Blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" enabled. Way to abuse that feature.

Playing the game by the rules means not using a point counter. If two people both want to play a casual game with a point counter, fine! But to be unable to be random matched in a Pro game with someone because you prefer to play the game by the rules? That's nuts! Really, Pro games shouldn't allow the VP counter at all.

I would think a top-level player like you would have learned to count VP by now. Makes me wonder.

i actually can't belive im contradicting you here... i mean I usually agree with you on most things, and i'm one of the guys who always disallows the vp counter. but, uh, I really think SCSN has a point. I mean, whenever goko is concerned, you always have the simplicity casual-friendly acrgument, but for salvager i don't really see too many options as a problem. So why not just make it 4 options

-> always refuse
-> always enable
-> always enable and only match with players who don't refuse
-> don't care (do what the other guy wants)

I still think the vp counter is a bad idea because it takes skill away from the game, but that's beside the point. I mean, people who don't like the counter get to disallow it all the time, people who do like it only get to play with it  most of the time. It's kind of unfair, if the counter is important to someone, why force him to play without it? It's always hard to argue why some way of playing is objectively better than another one, so I'd just give equal rights to everyone.

That said...

Pro games shouldn't allow the VP counter at all.

I kind of agree, which is conflictive to everything i just said. But on the other hand, what point is there in disallowing the counter for pro games when you can see the entire log? I think you shouldn't see the log, but we can't change that. Eh, I don't know. It's just that I dislike the concept of a counter so much that I tend to disagree with everything that's pro-counter. Maybe now I'm trying too hard to be objective.

And you also have a point here

If enough people do this, suddenly people who play #vpoff (the default way to play the game) are blacklisted by everybody that has, say, "Blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" enabled. Way to abuse that feature.

So, I don't even really disagree with you anymore. But I do think it's more complicated than either of you make it out to be.

[pst]

I think Playdominion should be joined with the Internet Chess Club. People could be paired to play Chess or Dominion. Chess is of course a game with much more prestige and skill, so if any of the players asks for it chess that should be played. If there is someone who wants to only play Dominion obviously they should learn to play some chess as well, and stop suggesting a way to find other feebleminded chesshaters on the site.

[soulnet]

I think Playdominion should be joined with the Internet Chess Club. People could be paired to play Chess or Dominion. Chess is of course a game with much more prestige and skill, so if any of the players asks for it chess that should be played. If there is someone who wants to only play Dominion obviously they should learn to play some chess as well, and stop suggesting a way to find other feebleminded chesshaters on the site.

That's so funny. However, I don't think Chess has more skill than Dominion. Prestige, yes.

[Holger]

Playing the game by the rules means not using a point counter. If two people both want to play a casual game with a point counter, fine! But to be unable to be random matched in a Pro game with someone because you prefer to play the game by the rules? That's nuts! Really, Pro games shouldn't allow the VP counter at all.

(Expanding on what silverspawn wrote:)
Regardless of the VP counter, Goko doesn't let anyone play "by the rules" anyway, because it provides a log of the entire game all the time, which is a much worse rules deviation than a VP counter alone.

Barring Masquerade (and time-outs), a really "professional" player could (re-)calculate the VPs from the log everytime he makes a crucial decision; I much prefer an available VP counter to having to wait minutes for my opponent's calculation every few turns.

[Donald X.]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

In other news, I think the vp counter on/off should be an option.  That solves everything.

Note that I actually convinced guided in that thread. That was great.

Dominion IRL does not allow tracking scores on paper, that's all covered in that thread. IRL I usually do not play with just two players, and the value of tracking scores plummets, except when 3-piling before people can get anywhere, and even then you can look through the trash for Estates. For sure you want to track scores with two players.

I have okay'd a VP counter for online Dominion, using my ridiculously unfair powers over reality, and expect they will eventually add it. I have no idea when. I totally forgot to include it in the matchmaking proposal. Since some people care strongly it may be best to have an option there.

If you are stuck in a game of online Dominion without a VP counter you want, just say the score out loud when it changes. It's very easy to track that way, obv. outside of games with Gardens etc.

Playing with a VP counter is a variant. I always encourage people to play whatever variants they've agreed to. In this case we need to provide the variant, or they need a mod. It's friendly to provide it.

[JW]

There's no reason to victimize yourself into second-class citizenship. It's already perfectly possible to put people who disable the point-counter on your blacklist, and in fact I've been consistently doing just that. It's no judgment about anyone, it's just preventing myself from facing experiences I don't enjoy. If anything this suggested automatch feature would make the whole process more civil, because right now the people on my blacklist have no way of getting off it if they happen to change their mind.

Wow, that is awful when combined with the group blacklist function. If enough people do this, suddenly people who play #vpoff (the default way to play the game) are blacklisted by everybody that has, say, "Blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" enabled. Way to abuse that feature.

The best solution seems to be the suggested automatch feature. But in the absence of that, perhaps the "blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" option should only count players as being blacklisted if that player is blacklisted on more than automatch alone. If you don't care enough to kick someone when that person joins your games or to censor that person in the lobby, it's probably an issue like differing point counter preference rather than actual bad experiences.

After a bad recent experience, I'm now using the "blacklist the 10% most blacklisted," but I'd hate to miss potential games just because some people have been blacklisted for not wanting the vp counter.