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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 196102 times)

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1925 on: July 18, 2013, 03:48:06 pm »

Shraeye's re-reads are interesting, I'm going to withhold comment mostly until he's done and posted his conclusions from them, though.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1926 on: July 18, 2013, 03:51:09 pm »

So, you think that Xeiron is town, and think that I'm switching my views from Xeiron being scum to Xeiron being town?

1)  That's not necessarily what I'm doing, although you're helping me along.
2)  If you are town, and think Xeiron is town, you should be helping me along!  Not questioning me and trying to make me rethink it.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1927 on: July 18, 2013, 03:52:40 pm »

I realize those two points look odd together.

I don't think you were intentionally helping me along, which is the key point.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1928 on: July 18, 2013, 03:56:22 pm »

So, you think that Xeiron is town, and think that I'm switching my views from Xeiron being scum to Xeiron being town?

1)  That's not necessarily what I'm doing, although you're helping me along.
2)  If you are town, and think Xeiron is town, you should be helping me along!  Not questioning me and trying to make me rethink it.

What? I don't understand. I'm saying that I think the pen thing doesn't implicate Xeiron. Lately, I've questioned his analysis of Alexander Graham Bell, which I think is faulty, but not scummy. I've questioned you for immediately unvoting as soon as Xeiron votes, and for (seemingly) suddenly changing your views. I don't get what you're accusing me of here

Here's what makes no sense to me:

You were okay voting Ahoppy before. Someone you think is scummy (Xeiron)votes Ahoppy. This makes you think that Xeiron is very possibly more towny, yet you unvote Ahoppy.

If you are thinking Xeiron is more towny, shouldn't that make you MORE confident with your vote, not LESS confident?

I think Xeiron is more than likely town, and I hope you think the same. I also think Ahoppy is scum, and you should vote him.

PPE: You notice the contradiction, but what exactly are you asking me here?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1929 on: July 18, 2013, 03:57:58 pm »

So, you think that Xeiron is town, and think that I'm switching my views from Xeiron being scum to Xeiron being town?

1)  That's not necessarily what I'm doing, although you're helping me along.
2)  If you are town, and think Xeiron is town, you should be helping me along!  Not questioning me and trying to make me rethink it.

Btw. I disagree with the second point. Of course I'm going to question your motives of why you shift. Even if I think Xeiron is town, you agreeing with me does not make YOU town, and I want to figure out why you think Xeiron is town.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1930 on: July 18, 2013, 04:01:30 pm »

The unvoting Ahoppy thing was before re-reading Xeiron again.

Quote
You have very suddenly flipped on this, directly after Xeiron voted Ahoppy. Why would this vote cause you to change your opinion on something that you brought up at the beginning of D2?

The thing that caused the flip-flop was re-reading Xeiron, as you asked me to. 



If you're town, you absolutely should be questioning why I'm switching my views.  But that's not what these feels like to me.  It feels more like you're trying to subtly say, "No!  Go back to tunneling Xeiron!", rather than simply questioning whether my change makes me scummy.  It's just the feeling I'm getting here, and it's not a towny vibe from you.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1931 on: July 18, 2013, 04:23:19 pm »

Re-read the past page twice, and that's just absolutely not true...
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1932 on: July 18, 2013, 04:30:44 pm »

Well, I guess we'll have to disagree then.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1933 on: July 18, 2013, 04:31:36 pm »

I would love to see Theorel come in here and say what he thinks about the recent developments -- I don't think we've heard from him in awhile.

A lot of people are naming both Theorel and Ahoppy as scummy (Chairs, Xeiron, others I can't remember maybe?) Chairs and Xeiron, why are you voting Ahoppy over Theorel? Is it simply because Ahoppy is the more viable lynch?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1934 on: July 18, 2013, 04:33:12 pm »

What specifically in your re-read of Xeiron made you change your mind on him?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1935 on: July 18, 2013, 04:35:25 pm »

Can you point out where I said I changed my mind on him?

I was re-reading what he said.  The strongest thing I said was "That's not what I'm doing, although you're helping me along".  At no point did I say I changed my mind on Xeiron.
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chairs

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1936 on: July 18, 2013, 04:39:07 pm »

I would love to see Theorel come in here and say what he thinks about the recent developments -- I don't think we've heard from him in awhile.

A lot of people are naming both Theorel and Ahoppy as scummy (Chairs, Xeiron, others I can't remember maybe?) Chairs and Xeiron, why are you voting Ahoppy over Theorel? Is it simply because Ahoppy is the more viable lynch?

Ahoppy feels like the right choice to me.  Theorel feels scummy, but Ahoppy feels like Mafia.

I know, bad explanation.  I'll try (but make no promises) to do more logical instead of emotional explanation later.

Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1937 on: July 18, 2013, 04:42:11 pm »

You were hypothesizing that the mailman who sent you the note last night could have been scum trying to push a mislynch on town!Xeiron through manipulating you.

It's just very interesting that you're bringing this up NOW, when you've had the message all day to think about. The timing of bringing it up, after your scum read (Xeiron) announces intent to bring Ahoppy to L-1, is odd.

I'd say that it's meant to distract from a potential Ahoppy lynch, but that doesn't make complete sense, since it makes Xeiron seem townier, which would make the Ahoppy lynch even more viable. But, on the other hand, it would bring up another potential lynch target, and since you unvoted, you may not be planning on staying on Ahoppy, and you might be planning on moving away.

So that could make you and Ahoppy potential partners -- you moved away from him D1, and you're now potentially moving away from him on D2. (and I know, you might not, but it's fishy that you've found reasons to unvote him two days in a row).

If you're town, you are trying to avoid a mislynch. It's just that your thoughts seem to be pulling you in two different directions here (Xeiron is townier because of the mailman note, but Ahoppy is scummier, yet you're unvoting Ahoppy).

I'm just getting two different directions from you here, and I'm struggling to reconcile them in my head.

Why did you wait until now to bring up the mailman note issue, when it's been there all day?

If you get a townier read on Xeiron, does that make you more or less comfortable lynching Ahoppy?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1938 on: July 18, 2013, 04:44:48 pm »

In case you were wondering where I got this from.

Paper makes one of the following powers.

1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker

You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.

I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.

1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.

Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?

So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker.  He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0.  He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum".  It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1939 on: July 18, 2013, 04:49:47 pm »

Timeline for TA:

#1910:  Xeiron announces intention to vote for Ahoppy
#1912:  I unvote from Ahoppy
#1917:  TA says that no one has said anything about Xeiron's theory, and asks us to re-read it
-- I reread Xeiron's theory --
#1918, 1920:  I come back with some thoughts on my reread.

I don't know how in the world you think this is scummy timing.  You asked me to re-read it, I re-read it, and then you find it "interesting" that I re-read it at this point, and not earlier.  I re-read it because you asked me to! 

Stop tying this re-read and my unvoting of Ahoppy together.  They were triggered by completely separate incidents that happened to come one after another in the thread.  I've already stated that I re-read Xeiron because you asked me to. 

Why are you trying to find connections for me doing what you asked me to?

Again, You asked me to re-read Xeiron.  And then you found it odd that I re-read Xeiron.  WHAT????
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1940 on: July 18, 2013, 04:54:37 pm »

Again, I'm not "moving away from Ahoppy."  I still may decide to put my vote there.  You've repeatedly attributed actions to me that I haven't done recently, such as having a town-read on Xeiron (of course I don't have a town read on Xeiron), and moving away from Ahoppy (My exact words were "I may go back to it")

As for being pulled in different directions, yeah, of course I am.  It's because I'm town, I'm taking in a lot of information that sometimes conflicts with one another, and I have to sort through which is correct information and which is red herrings. 
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1941 on: July 18, 2013, 04:55:42 pm »

Ok, well they didn't seem separate to me, since they were happening so close together. They definitely looked intertwined, since we were going back from one to the other. But I was really thrown off by the fact that you seemed to be saying two different things at once -- one thing that I would think would naturally make someone more comfortable voting Ahoppy, and then unvoting Ahoppy. Even if they really were unrelated, do you see the disconnect there?

I didn't see the connect between 1918 and 1920 to Xeiron's post until you just pointed it now. It's not something that he brought up in his post, so I didn't see it as a direct response -- it really came out of nowhere, to me. I see that it's a reply to the same message that Xeiron was analyzing, but it's not really a direct reply to Xeiron's theory, so it threw me off.

I don't find it odd that you re-read Xeiron -- I found it odd that you brought up the telephone thing, which I now see was meant as a reply to Xeiron's most recent post. But that connection wasn't obvious to me, at all, hence me treating it like it came up out of the blue.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1942 on: July 18, 2013, 04:57:00 pm »

Again, I'm not "moving away from Ahoppy."  I still may decide to put my vote there.  You've repeatedly attributed actions to me that I haven't done recently, such as having a town-read on Xeiron (of course I don't have a town read on Xeiron), and moving away from Ahoppy (My exact words were "I may go back to it")

As for being pulled in different directions, yeah, of course I am.  It's because I'm town, I'm taking in a lot of information that sometimes conflicts with one another, and I have to sort through which is correct information and which is red herrings.

You may not be "moving away from Ahoppy", but you unvoted him, and that's definitely something noteworthy especially considering you did it D1, as well.

And I know you don't have a town read on Xeiron, or that you ever said you did
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1943 on: July 18, 2013, 04:58:05 pm »

What specifically in your re-read of Xeiron made you change your mind on him?

Do you know that?  It's pretty obvious that I had a scummy read on Xeiron all of today.  "Changing my mind" would give me a towny read on him, no?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1944 on: July 18, 2013, 05:03:35 pm »

What specifically in your re-read of Xeiron made you change your mind on him?

Do you know that?  It's pretty obvious that I had a scummy read on Xeiron all of today.  "Changing my mind" would give me a towny read on him, no?

I know you have and had a scummy read. I thought you were saying that you went back and re-read all of Xeiron's post. Did you do that, or only the recent ones?

I thought you were saying stuff you weren't because the telephone post seemingly came out of nowhere to me, when it was actually a response to Xeiron's post and it was just unclear that it was.

Don't worry, I'm not trying to say that you think Xeiron is towny, I know, and everyone else does I'm sure, exactly where you stand on him.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1945 on: July 18, 2013, 08:00:49 pm »

In case you were wondering where I got this from.

Paper makes one of the following powers.

1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker

You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.

I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.

1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.

Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?

So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker.  He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0.  He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum".  It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump.  that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had.  This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.

also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates.  That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy.  That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1946 on: July 18, 2013, 08:17:04 pm »

Twisted:

(?) Immediately tries to skip RVS (6/24 2.34pm); this doesn’t make any sense, as any info we have night0 that will move us forward obviously involves claiming, and Twisted is against claiming.

(0-) Twisted makes a joke about choosing the wrong deli meat being scummy; exactly the sort of RVS banter that he had hoped we could move past (6/24 3.01pm).  He defends this in 6/25 3.34pm, but I still don’t get his indignation here.  I just don’t see how somebody can be so down on RVS, but still want to participate in that banter.  It just makes it look like your anti-RVS position is puffed up to be a real hatred, when really you don’t mind to participate in it anyway.

(0+) Here twisted (link) disagree with xeiron (who thought ash was softclaiming with his raerae vote) but doesn’t find him scummy for it.

(0+) (link) still has no strong reads, but suspicious of shraeye/ash it seems.  Toys with no-lynch idea, to keep items in the game for longer.

(0) Next comes the issue of Twisted v. spiritbears. I think that Twisted really pushes spiritbears to explain a read much harder than necessary.  Why focus on spiritbears’ EFHW read?  At the same time xeiron was posting odd unexplained reads on people, and Twisted wasn’t kicking up a fuss there.  If Twisted flips scum, then xeiron looks more suspicious for dodging this treatment, I think.

(0) (6/27 6.11pm) Looking at nkirbit’s reads from ash/raerae, Twisted says that AHoppy comes out the scummiest.  That group included chair/theorel/spirit/AHoppy.  I think if Twisted flips scum, then AHoppy looks townier.  Twisted could have easily picked spirit as his biggest scumread here due to the surrounding argument.  I don’t see somebody picking one of their partners out of a group when they have a ready-made case on another person in that group.

(-) (link) Twisted had been called out for his townread on mail-mi by raerae.  He explains that mail-mi’s contributions were related to xeiron stuff and his reaction to xeiron calling out theorel on calculations.  That seems really weak stuff for the townread which seemed confident.

(0-) (6/30 9.28pm) This is strange to me; when I play games with people I know (Munch, raerae) I tend to focus on their posts more and see them as more active then they actually are on reread.  Twisted says that he can’t remember points that his brother has made.

(0) July 1 posts seem dominated with more Twisted v. spirit. It looks like posts from both sides were emotionally charged, and it’s hard to get alignment reads from that.

(0) (7/2 10.28am) When we were sitting at a pivotal point, Twisted voted for AHoppy over Eevee, EFHW, or something new.  This is another point that makes me think Twisted/AHoppy aren’t scumpartners.

(+) (7/2 11.19am) Twisted goes through the exercise of looking at all of the reactions to spiritbears now that we knew spirit’s alignment; he found Eevee/ash the scummiest out of this wagon.

(0-) (7/2 6.54pm) Twisted tells me the reasons for his lynch preferences; I find it odd that he’s willing to follow nkirbit’s thoughts on AHoppy blindly just because he “has a townread on nkirbit”.  He also misunderstands how “lynching a background player” differs from “lynch a lurker”.  The point isn’t to look at metas and say scum is posting less than they do as town, but to look at the actual content, and see if somebody is taking risks.

(0+) (7/3 11.12pm) I agree with this assessment.  The mail-mi lynch looked like a clear redirect, and makes me very suspicious that there is scum in (eevee, EFHW, xeiron, AHoppy).  I think xeiron/AHoppy are the likely candidates here.  If Eevee=scum, then I xeiron is as well, so the xeiron lynch is just as good.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1947 on: July 18, 2013, 08:18:55 pm »

That's the end of my reads, I didn't get around to making a similar post on Eevee, but I will read him as well now (though briefer) and then think more about conclusions.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1948 on: July 18, 2013, 08:26:04 pm »

Shraeye, I really appreciate the reads, and the work you've put in to them. They will hopefully be very helpful in finding scum. That said, though, do you think you could maybe post your conclusions on the reads as a whole, and where you think we should be looking for scum?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 2!)
« Reply #1949 on: July 18, 2013, 09:10:05 pm »

Shraeye, do you mind explaining exactly what (0), (0-), (--), etc. mean?
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