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[Twistedarcher]

Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?

Then, yes I think he shoud say so. Doublevoters can be dangerous if we do not know about them.

Would it make more sense to hear it from Shraeye first, and then have Chairs confirm/deny it, if we're going to go down this route?

[xeiron]

You were expecting yes, yes, no, and assuming that Shraeye was talking about Chairs, your answers are yes, no, yes. Does this move you away from a TA/Ahoppy/Theorel scum team? Where does it leave you next?

Also, why me, and why Theorel, and why Ahoppy? Your claiming, and item knowledge, seems to be related to Chairs/Shraeye. Yet your initial scumteam was neither of these people.

I just don't follow what you're doing here, at all.

I am trying to find 5 town, not three scum.

First I know that me and eevee are town.
Second, I am quite sure chairs is town. This has to do with the paper claim, RVS vote on Shraeye D1 based on flavour-cop-claim, getting to the cop-claim d2 and because doublevoting for him and his scummates, would be to powerful.

I thought I found a setup where Shraeye and Nkirbit were town, That would fit with eevee being A.G. Bell, when that is not thew case, I am not sure where it moves me.

[Twistedarcher]

So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / (with me as the )

[Twistedarcher]

So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / ? (with me as the ?)

[xeiron]

I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.

I would like Theorel to go next

[Twistedarcher]

Wait. So say paper IS a doublevote, and Shraeye has it. Why does this make him scum?

[Twistedarcher]

Or are you saying Shraeye is scum, or town? Or reserving judgement for a massclaim (which is still a terrible idea and still shouldn't happen, but it may be too late now)

[xeiron]

So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / (with me as the )

I thought I could explain everything by Shraeye being town and Eevee being Bell. I couldn't, but that does not necessary make Shraeye scum. Actually,m I am not sure about Shraeye at all, but I choose to warn about him according to "better safe than sorry"

[xeiron]

Wait. So say paper IS a doublevote, and Shraeye has it. Why does this make him scum?

It does not, but it makes him dangerous if he is scum.

[Twistedarcher]

So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / (with me as the )

I thought I could explain everything by Shraeye being town and Eevee being Bell. I couldn't, but that does not necessary make Shraeye scum. Actually,m I am not sure about Shraeye at all, but I choose to warn about him according to "better safe than sorry"

Fair enough.

It could just be that paper is tracker, but given Shraeye's warning, that doesn't make sense.

The fact that he didn't vote Ahoppy, despite the fact that he had a scum read on Ahoppy D1 and reiterated it D2, is interesting, though.

If he's scum, and Ahoppy is town, he has an incentive to vote there for the hammer.

If he's town, and he thinks Ahoppy is scum (which he said), he still has some incentive there, although he also has incentive to wait for more information.

If they're both scum, he has no incentive to vote.

[Twistedarcher]

Is all your information out there, Xeiron?

From what I've seen, given what you've said, you have no way to call a scumteam. The only information you have is on Shraeye/Chairs (which seems solid enough). I don't see how you could differentiate between TA/Theorel/Nkirbit/Ahoppy based on claims, though. Typing that out though, if you think you can get 3 scum in 4 players, that's pretty nice. If you can prove this, and if we can believe that Chairs/Shraeye are both town (and I don't know how we'd be able to determine Shraeye's alignment, really.)

Do you have anything else that you're saving up, or is everything out there?

[xeiron]

Is all your information out there, Xeiron?

From what I've seen, given what you've said, you have no way to call a scumteam. The only information you have is on Shraeye/Chairs (which seems solid enough). I don't see how you could differentiate between TA/Theorel/Nkirbit/Ahoppy based on claims, though. Typing that out though, if you think you can get 3 scum in 4 players, that's pretty nice. If you can prove this, and if we can believe that Chairs/Shraeye are both town (and I don't know how we'd be able to determine Shraeye's alignment, really.)

Do you have anything else that you're saving up, or is everything out there?

I have not told you my items yet. I think I will leave that to Eevee in a massclaim, because if we do not get there, it probably should not be claimed.
I also have more on Chairs that helped me guess that Shraeye has paper, Chairs investigated me N1 and because he is a "sharing flavor cop", I got his flavor name as well. That means Chairs investigated shraeye N0 and it makes sense for a cop to investigate and send items to the same person.

[xeiron]

From what I've seen, given what you've said, you have no way to call a scumteam. The only information you have is on Shraeye/Chairs (which seems solid enough). I don't see how you could differentiate between TA/Theorel/Nkirbit/Ahoppy based on claims, though. Typing that out though, if you think you can get 3 scum in 4 players, that's pretty nice. If you can prove this, and if we can believe that Chairs/Shraeye are both town (and I don't know how we'd be able to determine Shraeye's alignment, really.)

What I have to call a scumteam is three townies and these tools:

Resons for a massclaim:

(...)

The goal of scumhunting is to differentiate town players from scum players.  So the question is, how do we differentiate them?  Well, in order to differentiate them, we have to know what's different about them.  So, what's different about them?
1. They have a different goal.
2. They have additional information.

Now, consciously they are trying to hide both of those facts from the rest of us.  But just because they're trying to hide it, doesn't mean we can't look for it.
Those two things are kind of broad, so I break them down a bit.
1. Different Goal:
a. They're trying to lynch town.  Here's where we look for flimsy cases, misdirection, votes on town players.
b. They're trying to survive.  (Note: Town doesn't need to survive as badly as scum).  Here's where we look for things which don't help town, but help the player avoid lynches.

2. Different Information (ultimately this is just knowing who's town and who's scum.  But I'm going to talk about specific situations)
a. They know when they're wrong.  Either trying to direct town to a town-lynch, or defend scum.  They know everything they're saying is false, and sometimes that ingenuineness comes through or they try to find ways to cover their poor reasoning.
b. They know when they're right.  Either when bussing or when defending a town player.  They know that they're right, and so sometimes they show excessive conviction on a flimsy basis.
c. They know who their partners are, and what they're doing.  They can avoid or join wagons accordingly, and often will, because the names of their partners will stand out to them.
d. They know they're scum.  This knowledge can make them act differently from normal.

(...)

Here Theorel writes down some good theory about how to differentiate town from scum. A massclaim can give us the meat we need to actually use these tecniques. 1a. and 2c. scum are not actually trying to catch scum, this makes them use night actions different from town players. They may investigative powers to find powerful town PR, they may send items to eachother, etc.

I also want to add a new differentiation to theorels post:
3. Different roles.
A mafia game should be more or less balanced. Some roles would work both as scum and town, but some work fine would either be pointless or would break the game if they changed allignment. We can use this to tell allignments if we can guarantee against fakeclaims.

An exemple of broken scum-roles would be Asherskys role in this game. A 2-shot mafia vigilante that maybee also can send his scumpartners vig-powers. Two or three mafia kills at night. No way that can be balanced. Shraeye claims in post #1603 to know of one more such player.

To sum up the reasons for a massclaim,

• We can catch scum in lying. With chairs' power, with other flavor powers, with other investigative powers or by noticing inconsitencies.
• We may find roles that have to be either town or scum to not break the game.
• We may find players with scummy flavour
• We may find interaction between players that may or may not indicate a scumteam.
• We may notice generally scummy or towny night action behaviour

What I need is data from a massclaim to use these tools on.

[xeiron]

It is now 5.am her so time to sleep. I want to find Theorel's claim when I come back.

[theorel]

I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.

I would like Theorel to go next

No, I really don't think we've "gone too far", that we can't avoid claiming.

Here's what we know:
xeiron is a claimed one-shot cop, Harry Soref, and has sent 2 items to Eevee.  He received paper and cooling unit.  (i.e. xeiron has full-claimed)

chairs had paper (we already knew), and sent it to shraeye and xeiron (flavor copping each).
paper MIGHT make a 1-shot double-voter.

Eevee is NOT Alexander Graham Bell.  (which somehow would have cleared shraeye AND nkirbit)

btw, here's how xeiron is manipulating this town into massclaiming:
He asks for it, finds out people don't support it.
He says he will NOT vote for ANYONE until a mass-claim.
He picks up a little support and promptly loses it.
He asks a few random questions, and claims for himself, then says "oops, we've gone too far...guess we'll have to go ahead with that mass claim that everyone by which I mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was opposed to."

No and NO.  FOS: TwistedArcher for putting that idea out there when he's been the most vocally opposed to it up until now.  I won't be claiming, as it's still a bad idea, even though xeiron has claimed some stuff and asked some questions that show that EVEN IF HE'S TOWN, he's not getting anything out of it.

[chairs]

So, theorel, how do you suggest we proceed?

[theorel]

By scumhunting as per normal.  Analyzing interactions, etc.  Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.

For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast.  That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.

I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago.  I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron

If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims.  Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).

[shraeye]

Well, I am frustrated, xeiron.  I thought I was pretty clear that I was intent on saying nothing about my powers.  Imagine for a moment this scenario:  Mafia is excited because they see a win via-endgame.  They throw down a scummy quickhammer.  They get screwed the next day because they weren't expecting a double voter.  The power of doublevoter is how they mess with mafia's knowledge-control of the game.  Now they can just factor that in.

Theorel's correct on how we should proceed; we need to focus on lynching our first scum, and having a solid network of reads so that whoever's left can connect the dots back to the other two.

I'm still chugging through my rereads, I got a few done, but I really need to consider all reads at once, instead of just jumping at the first one to look scummy and not thinking about the rest.

[xeiron]

By scumhunting as per normal.  Analyzing interactions, etc.  Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.

For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast.  That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.

I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago.  I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron

If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims.  Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).

Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee  is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.

The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.

Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?

[xeiron]

Well, I am frustrated, xeiron.  I thought I was pretty clear that I was intent on saying nothing about my powers.  Imagine for a moment this scenario:  Mafia is excited because they see a win via-endgame.  They throw down a scummy quickhammer.  They get screwed the next day because they weren't expecting a double voter.  The power of doublevoter is how they mess with mafia's knowledge-control of the game.  Now they can just factor that in.

Theorel's correct on how we should proceed; we need to focus on lynching our first scum, and having a solid network of reads so that whoever's left can connect the dots back to the other two.

I'm still chugging through my rereads, I got a few done, but I really need to consider all reads at once, instead of just jumping at the first one to look scummy and not thinking about the rest.

I would gladly have keept your secret if I could trust that you are town. But I am sure that you see the problem with the scenario you describe if you assume you are among the scumteam. That is a risk I did not want to take.

[Twistedarcher]

By scumhunting as per normal.  Analyzing interactions, etc.  Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.

For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast.  That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.

I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago.  I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron

If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims.  Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).

Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee  is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.

The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.

Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?

This is completely false.

Chairs gave you the paper N1. You'd combine it N1. You'd use the power N2.

Either your nights work differently than mine do, or you are lying to prove a point.

[Twistedarcher]

Someone controlling a double vote and not using it does not make them insta-town, btw.

[chairs]

Could we please get an updated official vote count?

[Twistedarcher]

I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.

I would like Theorel to go next

No, I really don't think we've "gone too far", that we can't avoid claiming.

Here's what we know:
xeiron is a claimed one-shot cop, Harry Soref, and has sent 2 items to Eevee.  He received paper and cooling unit.  (i.e. xeiron has full-claimed)

chairs had paper (we already knew), and sent it to shraeye and xeiron (flavor copping each).
paper MIGHT make a 1-shot double-voter.

Eevee is NOT Alexander Graham Bell.  (which somehow would have cleared shraeye AND nkirbit)

btw, here's how xeiron is manipulating this town into massclaiming:
He asks for it, finds out people don't support it.
He says he will NOT vote for ANYONE until a mass-claim.
He picks up a little support and promptly loses it.
He asks a few random questions, and claims for himself, then says "oops, we've gone too far...guess we'll have to go ahead with that mass claim that everyone by which I mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was opposed to."

No and NO.  FOS: TwistedArcher for putting that idea out there when he's been the most vocally opposed to it up until now.  I won't be claiming, as it's still a bad idea, even though xeiron has claimed some stuff and asked some questions that show that EVEN IF HE'S TOWN, he's not getting anything out of it.

I was against all that stuff getting out there. But since it's out there, we might as well make the best of it, right? It's no use saying "I am angry this got out, I'm going to ignore the new info"

It's out there, scum knows it. It sucks. But we might as well use it to its full ability, now that its out there.

[theorel]

By scumhunting as per normal.  Analyzing interactions, etc.  Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.

For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast.  That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.

I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago.  I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron

If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims.  Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).

Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee  is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.

The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.

Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?

Up until shraeye's post, it could have been a lie.  But regardless, nkirbit was sitting on you for ages, so either one of you is scum or there is no concern for a quicklynch.  I do not believe that nkirbit is scum, so either way it works for me.