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[nkirbit]

Well, I certainly wouldn't be shocked by a Xeiron-Eevee-third scumteam.

[Twistedarcher]

I guess my issue is that if Xeiron was scum, I'd expect someone to be defending him. I understand how from everyone else's point of view, that could be me, though.

I know that scum may be bussing, but here's the thing -- it's going to be really, really, hard to lynch scum without a bus. That's probably 5/5 town who need to agree on the correct player. That being said, I don't think BOTH of Xeiron's teammates, if he's scum, would come out with scum reads on their partners.

Now I understand this is different for the rest of you, since I could be Xeiron's potential teammate. But from my point of view, the fact that no one else is defending Xeiron is a huge red flag, and makes me think he really is town.

[nkirbit]

Saying that you have a scum read on someone, or that you can see the case on them, is a long way away from bussing.

[Twistedarcher]

Saying that you have a scum read on someone, or that you can see the case on them, is a long way away from bussing.

Right. But it's much harder to switch from that to defending someone. I just think at least one of Xeiron's potential partners would have defended him right off the bat.

[shraeye]

If you think you answered it, then why did you also add the sarcastic paragraph about me finding you scummy for listing a fact?

I don't know, I'm irritated that you and Nkirbit are asking me questions that are answered in quotes that you quoted, or ones that are on the same page. Or maybe I'm just a sarcastic person? You do the same all the day, I'd expect it to bother you less than others.

Did I answer your question, or not?

I'm fickle.  Sometimes sarcasm is there, sometimes not.  I now know what you mean about xeiron.

[nkirbit]

For everyone who believes Xeiron is town:

Why are you discounting the possibility of Xeiron being town and Eevee being scum, and Xeiron was so sure of his reads that he faked a cop claim to save Eevee, who he believed was town?  That doesn't sound drastically more ridiculous than anything else we've seen.

[Twistedarcher]

For everyone who believes Xeiron is town:

Why are you discounting the possibility of Xeiron being town and Eevee being scum, and Xeiron was so sure of his reads that he faked a cop claim to save Eevee, who he believed was town?  That doesn't sound drastically more ridiculous than anything else we've seen.

Never considered this..

But...no. Just no. This should be outside the realm of possibility to the point where it doesn't get any consideration.

[AHoppy]

So since nobody has posted in over 24 hours and we're on our bankable time, I think we need to get moving.  I believe he is VLA, but I have been busier than I expected and have been unable to re-read shraye.  But I know the case on Xerion, I like the case on xerion, and nobody is coming over here to sit on chairs with me. so Vote: Xerion

[shraeye]

Raerae and I are still moving in, so time is short; investing 3+ hours in rereads is super daunting right now.  This is a huge reason why I keep railing against long threads; lack of rereads hurts us.  I'm going to a baseball game now, and then will try to get on things this evening.

[xeiron]

I have been less active D2 than I should because of V/LA issues. now that I am back I will look over D2, answer questions I newer answered, and repeat my points with better reasoning.

Lets start with the mass-claim.

Here is how i want us to do it. (slightly changed since the first time I proposed it)

I want us to claim popcorn style in three rounds.
First I want everyone to flavorclaim and then declare who they sent items to.
Second I want everyone to claim items they have gotten.
Third I want everyone to claim what other powers they have used.

Unused powers, both starting powers and item combinations can be left unclaimed.

I am fine with starting. Actually I am fine with fully claiming everything before the rest of you, as long as you agree on the massclaim. That way I cannot use any information from you to build a fakeclaim for me.

[xeiron]

Resons for a massclaim:

(...)

The goal of scumhunting is to differentiate town players from scum players.  So the question is, how do we differentiate them?  Well, in order to differentiate them, we have to know what's different about them.  So, what's different about them?
1. They have a different goal.
2. They have additional information.

Now, consciously they are trying to hide both of those facts from the rest of us.  But just because they're trying to hide it, doesn't mean we can't look for it.
Those two things are kind of broad, so I break them down a bit.
1. Different Goal:
a. They're trying to lynch town.  Here's where we look for flimsy cases, misdirection, votes on town players.
b. They're trying to survive.  (Note: Town doesn't need to survive as badly as scum).  Here's where we look for things which don't help town, but help the player avoid lynches.

2. Different Information (ultimately this is just knowing who's town and who's scum.  But I'm going to talk about specific situations)
a. They know when they're wrong.  Either trying to direct town to a town-lynch, or defend scum.  They know everything they're saying is false, and sometimes that ingenuineness comes through or they try to find ways to cover their poor reasoning.
b. They know when they're right.  Either when bussing or when defending a town player.  They know that they're right, and so sometimes they show excessive conviction on a flimsy basis.
c. They know who their partners are, and what they're doing.  They can avoid or join wagons accordingly, and often will, because the names of their partners will stand out to them.
d. They know they're scum.  This knowledge can make them act differently from normal.

(...)

Here Theorel writes down some good theory about how to differentiate town from scum. A massclaim can give us the meat we need to actually use these tecniques. 1a. and 2c. scum are not actually trying to catch scum, this makes them use night actions different from town players. They may investigative powers to find powerful town PR, they may send items to eachother, etc.

I also want to add a new differentiation to theorels post:
3. Different roles.
A mafia game should be more or less balanced. Some roles would work both as scum and town, but some work fine would either be pointless or would break the game if they changed allignment. We can use this to tell allignments if we can guarantee against fakeclaims.

An exemple of broken scum-roles would be Asherskys role in this game. A 2-shot mafia vigilante that maybee also can send his scumpartners vig-powers. Two or three mafia kills at night. No way that can be balanced. Shraeye claims in post #1603 to know of one more such player.

To sum up the reasons for a massclaim,

• We can catch scum in lying. With chairs' power, with other flavor powers, with other investigative powers or by noticing inconsitencies.
• We may find roles that have to be either town or scum to not break the game.
• We may find players with scummy flavour
• We may find interaction between players that may or may not indicate a scumteam.
• We may notice generally scummy or towny behaviour

[Eevee]

Well, I just don't see Xeiron doing this as scum.

[AHoppy]

I have actually been thinking about it and think a mass claim could work.  Mostly because we (are assuming) we are at mylo.  I personally am having a hard time seeing who is/is not scummy.  Like TA has said, I also suspect everyone.  That's a problem.  While I have people who I think are more likely to be scum than others, more information would be useful in narrowing it down further.  But I think we do need xerion to full claim before we do any of that.  I would even go so far as to say we will need him to do that before people will even agree to a mass claim.  So I'm keeping my vote on xerion for now, until he at least claims.  But one question: What do you mean by popcorn style?

[AHoppy]

And Eevee, good to have you back, but could you let us know some more of your thoughts about what's going on?

[Eevee]

Popcorn style means one person claims and chooses the next person to claim.

Ahoppy, I don't know. I strongly think Xeiron is town, so I guess I actually support the massclaim plan he is proposing.

Other than that, "everyone is so scummy" sounds about right. I'm worried scum is trying to use xeiron as the one mislynch they need, but otoh this town is so unorganized (the thread is way too long!) and this game is so confusing that scum might just as well be sitting back and watching us get nowhere.

[chairs]

v0v Let's massclaim then.  At this point we really need to figure out our lynch, and maybe it'll help (and if not I think we've lost this one anyway).

[nkirbit]

Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows.  I will lie if the group chooses to do so.

[xeiron]

Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows.  I will lie if the group chooses to do so.

Would you participate if I claim everything i know? Because I will do so if needed.

[chairs]

Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows.  I will lie if the group chooses to do so.

Would you participate if I claim everything i know? Because I will do so if needed.

If you do this, I'm in.  We're on bank time and we need to finish this day out.

[AHoppy]

Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows.  I will lie if the group chooses to do so.

Would you participate if I claim everything i know? Because I will do so if needed.

yes

[xeiron]

Good. I will claim in a few hours if TA, Shraeye or Theorel does not show up with some strong arguments why not to massclaim.

[Twistedarcher]

I still am anti-massclaiming.

EVEN if we catch scum today, we still have a few more nights to go through. We've let scum know exactly who to kill, exactly who they need to fear, exactly who's harmless to them. We've directed scum's night kills to minimize risk, and that's best case scenario, mind you. We don't know scum's powers, but it could turn out this could be very, very, very beneficial to them.

FoS to everyone who said "Yeah, if Xeiron goes first, we'll claim everything. Major major FoS. Scum WANTS this information out there. Know everyone's item? Heck yeah, that sounds great!

The worst part, by far, is claiming used powers. The OP warned us exactly against this!! If I say I got item X and Y N0, and used power A on N1, well, you've claimed a combination, basically! Awesome! Do we want scum to know combinations? I reaaalllly don't think so.

What happens if you have a town player who claims they've received four items, but haven't used any yet? Guess who scum's going to want to kill tonight? If someone has no unused items, which would be pretty easy to determine from the claim, they won't be able to use their items until N3. But someone who has unused items would be a great NK target for scum.

I'd support this plan, if we didn't have to risk probably two more nights. Two more nights is wayyy too much time for scum to capitalize on this plan, even if we do catch scum through it. And I'm not convinced we are.

I think massclaiming is an awful awful awful idea.

[Twistedarcher]

Seriously, I go away for a weekend, and come back to less than a page?

This means that there's a serious lack of scumhunting going on. You know who doesn't care if there's no scumhunting? Scum! I think scum are more than happy to sit back, let Xeiron's plan take place, let the bankable time dwindle away, and not say anything. I also think it means that we're not really close to finding scum, and none of them have underwent any serious suspicion today. Yet another reason I think Xeiron is town (although I couldn't disagree more with the massclaim idea).

[Twistedarcher]

Eevee, what's the vote on Shraeye for? Although I think voting someone because they are on more "possible" scumteams is not a great reason for a vote, at least I understand where Theorel is coming from.

Why did you hop on with him, though? Do you agree with Theorel's logic, or is there a read there as well?

[chairs]

Seriously, I go away for a weekend, and come back to less than a page?

This means that there's a serious lack of scumhunting going on. You know who doesn't care if there's no scumhunting? Scum! I think scum are more than happy to sit back, let Xeiron's plan take place, let the bankable time dwindle away, and not say anything. I also think it means that we're not really close to finding scum, and none of them have underwent any serious suspicion today. Yet another reason I think Xeiron is town (although I couldn't disagree more with the massclaim idea).

Fair enough.

I've been monitoring the thread, but am really out of ideas on this one.