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[EFHW]

-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items.  This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.

See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident.  How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items?  Scum might know this from their own info.  Or you yourself know of such an item, as town.  But really, this is bad.  Like, lynching bad.

I think you must be misunderstanding me.  My reasoning went like this:

1.  If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2.  If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3.  BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.

The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.

I didn't say anything about the power existing.  And if mentioning stealing reveals that it exists as a power (which it doesn't), then you'd have to find TA scummy for that for being the first to say it.

[ashersky]

Can you state the case on me, now? Like, why would I be a good lynch? For reference:

I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch.  I did tunnel him earlier.

The case on Eevee (originally on pages 21-25 or so):

1.  Smaller presence than usual.  Noted by others as well.
2.  The sb defense, which could be an easy grab for towncred.
3.  The similarity of Eevee this D1 to Mean Girls D1.
4.  More argumentative and overeactive than normal Eevee.
5.  Forced buddying post to seem more towny again (see my #581)
6.  Quick to flip-flop on people now (TA and X most recently)

[EFHW]

I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.

I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash.  But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you

You understand that I'm using it as evidence of NOT being scum, right?

[ashersky]

-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items.  This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.

See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident.  How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items?  Scum might know this from their own info.  Or you yourself know of such an item, as town.  But really, this is bad.  Like, lynching bad.

I think you must be misunderstanding me.  My reasoning went like this:

1.  If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2.  If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3.  BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.

The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.

I didn't say anything about the power existing.  And if mentioning stealing reveals that it exists as a power (which it doesn't), then you'd have to find TA scummy for that for being the first to say it.

You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..."  That's exactly what you said.  Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].

How do you know they could get one?  That's my question.

[ashersky]

Early nkirbit case on mail-mi.  FYI.

On Mail-Mi.  Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.

1.  Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive.  Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2.  Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3.  Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes.  Whatever.
4.  Mail-Mi unvotes
5.  Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in.  Eevee had come back and been active by this point.  When questioned about the vote, we see this post:

Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?

Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.

Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:

Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 

That was my main reason, unvote.

A little bit different, to be sure.

Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"?  And why not, if you don't?

[Twistedarcher]

Nkirbit, thinking about it, I don't really know your reads. Scummy on SB and X, not really sure on your reads on most other people. Have you posted a list? If not, can you please do so? I'm finding that I'm unsure of what you think about most of the other players who are active.

If you made a list and I forgot about it I'm sorry and can you redirect me to it?

[nkirbit]

I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.

I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash.  But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you

You understand that I'm using it as evidence of NOT being scum, right?

Yeah, I know.  I just think that's it's interesting that you're using a piece of evidence to say a player is towny, and I look at that piece of evidence and see absolutely nothing at all.  I'm still thinking about what my interpretation of it is.  I'm not sure at this point.

[Twistedarcher]

Nkirbit, thinking about it, I don't really know your reads. Scummy on SB and X, not really sure on your reads on most other people. Have you posted a list? If not, can you please do so? I'm finding that I'm unsure of what you think about most of the other players who are active.

If you made a list and I forgot about it I'm sorry and can you redirect me to it?

To add something else, I'm finding it really hard to form an opinion on Nkirbit this game, and remember what he's said / what he's done, even though I know he's been active and posting. This may be due to him being my brother, but I had an opinion on him last game I played, and I just have NOTHING on him this game, either scummy or towny.

[nkirbit]

I did make a list, but I'll make a new one.  It was a while ago and my reads have surely changed by now.  Give me a few minutes.

[Twistedarcher]

I did make a list, but I'll make a new one.  It was a while ago and my reads have surely changed by now.  Give me a few minutes.

I just looked, for everyone's reference the old list is in #499. Lots of nulls there, only scummy reads are myself and Ahoppy.

[EFHW]

You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..."  That's exactly what you said.  Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].

How do you know they could get one?  That's my question.

"Even if ... they could" means "I don't know if they have one now or not, but if they don't, they still might be able to get one later, we can't know for sure and neither can they,"  not "even if they can't now, they could get the power later, because I know there's there's a combo for that".  Do you see what I mean?

[Eevee]

The case on Eevee (originally on pages 21-25 or so):

1.  Smaller presence than usual.  Noted by others as well.
2.  The sb defense, which could be an easy grab for towncred.
3.  The similarity of Eevee this D1 to Mean Girls D1.
4.  More argumentative and overeactive than normal Eevee.
5.  Forced buddying post to seem more towny again (see my #581)
6.  Quick to flip-flop on people now (TA and X most recently)

1. I think I've been as much of a presence than I've been in previous games.
2. The kind of thing I'm known to do as town too, you yourself said that I could take that stance regardless of my alignment.
3. I think you are the only one who has noticed that? Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
4. Nah, wasn't forced. Just your run of the mill Eevee buddying.
5. Yeah, not being sure about things and being willing to change your mind, total scum traits! Multiple times I've said I'm figuring this out as we more forward, and I think the flipflops on TA and and xeiron are good examples of that. I'm relatively sure it's going to continue like that, too. Hopefully I get it right when it matters.

[Twistedarcher]

ASh, why did you bring up nkirbit's case on mail-mi?

[ashersky]

You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..."  That's exactly what you said.  Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].

How do you know they could get one?  That's my question.

"Even if ... they could" means "I don't know if they have one now or not, but if they don't, they still might be able to get one later, we can't know for sure and neither can they,"  not "even if they can't now, they could get the power later, because I know there's there's a combo for that".  Do you see what I mean?

Sure, I see what you could have meant, had you used the word "if."  But, you see, you didn't.

-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items.  This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.

That's my point.  You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..."  You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power."  SINCE to me says you know it.  SINCE = BECAUSE here. 

Read this:  "especially because scum could get a stealing power..."  Pretty bad, right?

So then you cut your quote from the response and say you said "if" even though you didn't.  Lynch all liars.

vote: EFHW

[ashersky]

ASh, why did you bring up nkirbit's case on mail-mi?

Just noticed it when I was going back to get my old case on Eevee.  Thought it was useful, since we had just been talking about mail-mi.

[EFHW]

I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.

I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash.  But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you

You understand that I'm using it as evidence of NOT being scum, right?

Yeah, I know.  I just think that's it's interesting that you're using a piece of evidence to say a player is towny, and I look at that piece of evidence and see absolutely nothing at all.  I'm still thinking about what my interpretation of it is.  I'm not sure at this point.

It struck me because I had been advocating announcing innocuous items that one has so people could send you possibly complementary items, and it hadn't occurred to me at all that scum could take advantage of that if they have a stealing power.  I think scum wouldn't have brought up something new that no one else had thought of to discourage claiming of items.

[ashersky]

The case on Eevee (originally on pages 21-25 or so):

1.  Smaller presence than usual.  Noted by others as well.
2.  The sb defense, which could be an easy grab for towncred.
3.  The similarity of Eevee this D1 to Mean Girls D1.
4.  More argumentative and overeactive than normal Eevee.
5.  Forced buddying post to seem more towny again (see my #581)
6.  Quick to flip-flop on people now (TA and X most recently)

1. I think I've been as much of a presence than I've been in previous games.
2. The kind of thing I'm known to do as town too, you yourself said that I could take that stance regardless of my alignment.
3. I think you are the only one who has noticed that? Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
4. Nah, wasn't forced. Just your run of the mill Eevee buddying.
5. Yeah, not being sure about things and being willing to change your mind, total scum traits! Multiple times I've said I'm figuring this out as we more forward, and I think the flipflops on TA and and xeiron are good examples of that. I'm relatively sure it's going to continue like that, too. Hopefully I get it right when it matters.

Fair responses.  SB noted you resembled your Mean Girls D1 self, btw.  We don't have to agree, but in the end, I don't think you make sense as the lynch today.

[Eevee]

No, spirit said the exact opposite. He said "scum Eevee was very active all throughout day 1 in mean girls, he is not like that at all here so his lurking isn't scummy to me.. maybe it is to others though?" or something to that effect.

[nkirbit]

I did make a list, but I'll make a new one.  It was a while ago and my reads have surely changed by now.  Give me a few minutes.

I just looked, for everyone's reference the old list is in #499. Lots of nulls there, only scummy reads are myself and Ahoppy.

Yes, you are correct.  I don't get why you're bringing up my old list, though.

[nkirbit]

Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything.  I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer.  Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.

[EFHW]

That's my point.  You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..."  You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power."  SINCE to me says you know it.  SINCE = BECAUSE here. 

Read this:  "especially because scum could get a stealing power..."  Pretty bad, right?

Ok, I see.  But isn't it true that scum could possibly get a stealing power?  Do you not agree that that is a possibility?  That possibility is a fact, I think, so "since" is accurate even without special knowledge, and that is how it got into that sentence.

[Eevee]

Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything.  I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer.  Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.

Although, to be exact, it really didn't have anything to do with being busy. I just couldn't think of anything useful to say!

[ashersky]

That's my point.  You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..."  You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power."  SINCE to me says you know it.  SINCE = BECAUSE here. 

Read this:  "especially because scum could get a stealing power..."  Pretty bad, right?

Ok, I see.  But isn't it true that scum could possibly get a stealing power?  Do you not agree that that is a possibility?  That possibility is a fact, I think, so "since" is accurate even without special knowledge, and that is how it got into that sentence.

I don't know if it's true.  I didn't think of that at all.  What mafia power equates to stealing?  Watching/Tracking/Jailing/Investigating/Killing...none is stealing.  The OP says "neat-o power role."  POWER ROLE.  ROLE.  What ROLE is Stealer?  I mean, "Thief" exists on mafiascum, I guess, but it's basically a cop, not an actual Thief.

So I think if Archetype built in scum stealing, only scum would know that, or even think of it.  So to me it looks like you slipped.  TA's post is less blatant, but he gets scum points for it, now that I've worked this out even more clearly.

[ashersky]

Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything.  I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer.  Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.

Although, to be exact, it really didn't have anything to do with being busy. I just couldn't think of anything useful to say!

We're not talking about it like it is happening now.  It was happening before and Eevee asked for the "case" on him, so it needed to be raised again.

[EFHW]

That's my point.  You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..."  You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power."  SINCE to me says you know it.  SINCE = BECAUSE here. 

Read this:  "especially because scum could get a stealing power..."  Pretty bad, right?

Ok, I see.  But isn't it true that scum could possibly get a stealing power?  Do you not agree that that is a possibility?  That possibility is a fact, I think, so "since" is accurate even without special knowledge, and that is how it got into that sentence.

I don't know if it's true.  I didn't think of that at all.  What mafia power equates to stealing?  Watching/Tracking/Jailing/Investigating/Killing...none is stealing.  The OP says "neat-o power role."  POWER ROLE.  ROLE.  What ROLE is Stealer?  I mean, "Thief" exists on mafiascum, I guess, but it's basically a cop, not an actual Thief.

So I think if Archetype built in scum stealing, only scum would know that, or even think of it.  So to me it looks like you slipped.  TA's post is less blatant, but he gets scum points for it, now that I've worked this out even more clearly.

Is there any chance of you saying "I guess I'm overreaching here?"  We're going to have just disagree, I guess.