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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 195095 times)

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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1350 on: July 02, 2013, 08:15:20 pm »

I'm unsure how to start looking at it.  I'm so convinced that Xeiron is scum, that it's hard for me to build a case keeping that out.  Any case I see is going to start with "Does it make sense for this player to be scum partners with Xeiron?"  And while I might get somewhere, I think that any case I build this way is just going to be worse than a Xeiron lynch.

If I assume that Xeiron isn't scum, I'm not going to get a result I'm happy with, because I'm so sure of Xeiron being scum.  Anything that I get, I'm going to say "Does it make sense for this player to be partners with Xeiron?  And if the answer is no, then I'm not going to be happy about it, either.

Perhaps I'm wrong on Xeiron.  I don't think I am, though.  Unvote, though.  I am unhappy about this lynch, and want to at least start looking elsewhere.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1351 on: July 02, 2013, 08:15:39 pm »

Anyone notice raerae's visceral reactions against claiming?  A lot of don't you dare and policy votes...

Every time...except when X claimed.  No anger, no vote, nothing.  Odd.  If X is scum, so is raerae, I think.
you are here!  Don't you think raerae would be extra sure to protest if her partner seemed to be doing claiming?
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Archetype

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1352 on: July 02, 2013, 08:16:37 pm »

Vote Count 1.14
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (4) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron

Not Voting: (2) nkirbit, chairs

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch

« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 08:20:29 pm by Archetype »
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1353 on: July 02, 2013, 08:16:49 pm »

That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?

What are you referring to?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1354 on: July 02, 2013, 08:18:01 pm »

I think x is a better lynch than eevee even considering I think x is likely bad town here.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1355 on: July 02, 2013, 08:18:22 pm »

That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?

What are you referring to?

That you're unhappy about the lynches.

I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1356 on: July 02, 2013, 08:19:15 pm »

Anyone notice raerae's visceral reactions against claiming?  A lot of don't you dare and policy votes...

Every time...except when X claimed.  No anger, no vote, nothing.  Odd.  If X is scum, so is raerae, I think.
you are here!  Don't you think raerae would be extra sure to protest if her partner seemed to be doing claiming?

Not really here. On a phone.

I think x sheep on raerae early was indicative of a tie.   Like a bus if x was afraid I had caught his partner somehow N0.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1357 on: July 02, 2013, 08:19:23 pm »



So you're sheeping a townread's read on somebody instead of forming your own opinion?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1358 on: July 02, 2013, 08:20:48 pm »



So you're sheeping a townread's read on somebody instead of forming your own opinion?

No. Why do you take everything I say and interpret it in the most negative light? You've been doing that to me all game, and haven't been doing it near as much to everything else.

I'm believing a townread when he says that given what he knows, and what Ahoppy leaked, that he has good reason to believe that his information most likely comes from town.

I think that's much, much different than sheeping a read.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1359 on: July 02, 2013, 08:21:18 pm »

That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?

What are you referring to?

That you're unhappy about the lynches.

I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..

Of course I think possibly all 3 are towny.  I have no clue whether this is true or not, but it's possible.

I think the general waffling I've been doing is pretty consistent about me being happy with none of them.  If I was happy with one of them, I would have gone on there and stuck there.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1360 on: July 02, 2013, 08:22:03 pm »

That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?

What are you referring to?

That you're unhappy about the lynches.

I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..

Of course I think possibly all 3 are towny.  I have no clue whether this is true or not, but it's possible.

I think the general waffling I've been doing is pretty consistent about me being happy with none of them.  If I was happy with one of them, I would have gone on there and stuck there.

But if you're not happy with any of the 3, and X isn't gonna happen, why haven't you found anyone else?

Who's your next candidate after X, if we could lynch anyone?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1361 on: July 02, 2013, 08:22:41 pm »

I did say earlier that Xeiron saying he thought all 3 of these were towny made me think that there was a scum here.  I don't know what I think about this.  I'm sure of one thing in this game, and unsure of many other things.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1362 on: July 02, 2013, 08:23:08 pm »

That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?

What are you referring to?

That you're unhappy about the lynches.

I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..

Of course I think possibly all 3 are towny.  I have no clue whether this is true or not, but it's possible.

I think the general waffling I've been doing is pretty consistent about me being happy with none of them.  If I was happy with one of them, I would have gone on there and stuck there.

But if you're not happy with any of the 3, and X isn't gonna happen, why haven't you found anyone else?

Who's your next candidate after X, if we could lynch anyone?

Mail-Mi, probably.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1363 on: July 02, 2013, 08:23:56 pm »

I also have a scumread on Ashersky because I think he is possibly scum buddies with Xeiron should he turn out to be scum.  But if I couldn't get Xeiron through, I obviously can't get that case through.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1364 on: July 02, 2013, 08:28:10 pm »



So you're sheeping a townread's read on somebody instead of forming your own opinion?

No. Why do you take everything I say and interpret it in the most negative light? You've been doing that to me all game, and haven't been doing it near as much to everything else.

I'm believing a townread when he says that given what he knows, and what Ahoppy leaked, that he has good reason to believe that his information most likely comes from town.

I think that's much, much different than sheeping a read.

I really don't see the difference.  I'm sorry if you feel that paints you negatively but you're believing somebody based solely on your read on them...sheeping.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1365 on: July 02, 2013, 08:31:59 pm »

The case on Eevee - First of all, the thing that set me in that direction, look at the wagon on me.  mail-mi and Eevee.  The wagon is only there because Ash got a mania against me, mail-mi sheeped and Eevee voted too.  mail-mi has sheeped Ash before, and his presence there is scummy.  But Eevee is usually much more considered in his voting.  Remember when he hesitated to vote for me in Shakespeare even when I was caught in the act? 

Because there is that wagon now, each of you not voting for me had to think it through whether to join or not.  Take a moment and reflect on the thought processes which led you to decide not to vote for me.  Maybe I'm not shining crystal clear town to you, but there isn't really a case either.  Now imagine town!Eevee doing the same process.  Would he be on the wagon?

Ash did gambits before trying to flush out scum.  This time he really meant it, and Eevee felt safe to join. 
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1366 on: July 02, 2013, 08:32:09 pm »

I'm using what Nkirbit believes to be fact, not opinion. I think that's a pretty significant difference. It's not foolproof, of course, but I think there's a difference between

A) Nkirbit: I read Ahoppy, I'm like 90% sure he's towny based on a read
B) Nkirbit: I have some information that makes me 90% sure he's towny

One of these holds a LOT more water to me than the other does.

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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1367 on: July 02, 2013, 08:35:29 pm »

I'm using what Nkirbit believes to be fact, not opinion. I think that's a pretty significant difference. It's not foolproof, of course, but I think there's a difference between

A) Nkirbit: I read Ahoppy, I'm like 90% sure he's towny based on a read
B) Nkirbit: I have some information that makes me 90% sure he's towny

One of these holds a LOT more water to me than the other does.

This is an exaggeration.  I'm not at all 90% sure that Ahoppy is towny.  I believe I said over 50%.  I'm not nearly that sure of it.  Just sure enough that it's unattractive as a day 1 lynch.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1368 on: July 02, 2013, 08:36:18 pm »

I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her.  The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy.  Why the change?
Why only call her out on AHoppy and not shraeye too?  She did a complete 180 on him but actually made a decision on AHoppy rather than leaving him at null.
Are you questioning my changing on shraeye - which I already answered -- or the fact that nkirbit didn't ask me about changing re: shraeye but did re: Ahoppy?  What does nkirbit's not asking about my shift on shraeye say to you about him?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1369 on: July 02, 2013, 08:36:33 pm »

I'm using what Nkirbit believes to be fact, not opinion. I think that's a pretty significant difference. It's not foolproof, of course, but I think there's a difference between

A) Nkirbit: I read Ahoppy, I'm like 90% sure he's towny based on a read
B) Nkirbit: I have some information that makes me 90% sure he's towny

One of these holds a LOT more water to me than the other does.

This is an exaggeration.  I'm not at all 90% sure that Ahoppy is towny.  I believe I said over 50%.  I'm not nearly that sure of it.  Just sure enough that it's unattractive as a day 1 lynch.

I know, I just picked a number
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1370 on: July 02, 2013, 08:37:16 pm »

posts are coming fast and furious.  I'm going to try to assemble some Eevee quotes, so my responses may be a bit delayed.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1371 on: July 02, 2013, 08:38:28 pm »

I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1372 on: July 02, 2013, 09:06:32 pm »

My take on this sequence of posts is that Eevee is maneuvering himself into a position in which he can agree with Ashersky and vote me.  For context, I’ll include some of the conversation between myself and Ashersky.  If he thinks I’ve edited excessively, I can do more.  As it is I apologize for the length.  I prefer briefer posts.

Ashersky, so far your evidence against me is a "slip" no one else sees as a slip, a misunderstanding re: no lynch you yourself have acknowledged, misattributing to me something raerae said, and my willingness to give xeiron a chance to try his plan tonight (I don't agree with Day 2 no lynch).  Am I missing something?

Before Ash answers, Eevee says Ash’s case makes him suspect Ash more than me.
I don't think EHFW couldn't be scum. But pretty much same can be said for ash, and his certainty is worrisome..

Ashersky replies to me with the elements of his case.  I won’t comment on his case here.
I think the slip was a slip, even if others don't.  I think you've misrepresented things multiple times.  I think you've shown you have more set up info than the rest of us.  I think your reaction to Xeiron's claim/plan was scummy.
I do think your stance on no lynch is bad and your willingness to go along with X is bad.
I acknowledged that it was possible your no lynch comment, which I saw as contradictory, could have referenced something else.  That could have been your excuse to cover for it, too.  It isn't conclusive evidence, though.
The raerae scummy statement attributed to you I will own up to.  I think it was a scummy misrepresentation of TA's statement; raerae stands behind it.  That's fine.  I found it scummy.

Here Eevee says he has a reputation of opposing Day 1 lynches.  I’m taking him to mean that he is cautious, but he can correct me if I’m wrong.  He says he is uncomfortable with both me and Ash and knows I could be like I am being as scum.
Double negatives, how do they work.
Well, I have bit of a reputation to be against day 1 lynches. I like to think I've been correct with a good record too. In this game, I take that stance against the xeiron lynch - I will actively try to make it not happen.
I don't feel that way about EHFW. Ashersky is pushing it with too much certainty and it worries me, but EHFW answers are not convincing to me. I always try to think "could he be like that under pressure as scum", and I think EHFW could be.

Ash argues his own towniness
Compare how I'm pushing the EFHW case compared to how I pushed cases as scum.  If I am scum forcing an EFHW mislynch, I'm being pretty stupid about it.  What do I gain as scum from it?  Why EFHW over anyone else?
Am I sure she's scum?  As close to sure as you get on D1.  Best case I've seen all day.

Eevee says he isn’t convinced but says he’s agreeing about me anyway.
Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.

Next post, he votes because he wants to get the day over with.  Does this sound like cautious Eevee? 
In fact, in the interest of not dragging this day out longer than necessary and generally lynching over not lynching, I will Vote: EHFW. Fwiw I'm surprised no one seems to be noticing ahoppy at all.

Later he answers my question about which of Ash’s reasons he agrees with.  He cites Ash’s argument about his own towniness.  In the earlier post he was voting me despite his doubts about Ash.  Now his trust in ash is why he is voting.  He doesn’t state a position on any part of ashersky’s case against me.
It's not exactly the scum play I'd expect the most - picking a super aggressive townie who is better than average at defending herself and just relentlessly tunneling her when the alternative is a long, dragged out day 1 that isn't leading us any closer to a lynch.
It's like, ash said he thinks this day is getting too long, and now he is acting on it. The overcertainty makes sense for town ash.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1373 on: July 02, 2013, 09:18:12 pm »

I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!

Can you pull something together, or at least point us to the relevant sections of the thread?  I feel like I have my hands full as it is.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1374 on: July 02, 2013, 09:25:46 pm »

I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!

Can you pull something together, or at least point us to the relevant sections of the thread?  I feel like I have my hands full as it is.

#1252 (wow)
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