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[Eevee]

I think you timed coning out very well, Ash. Letting the discussion flow and trying to get mcmc lynched without claiming was definitely a good move.

[yuma]

well then for now I guess I'll keep my mouth shut. Maybe I'll reconsider when I get home from work ~ 10 hours. That will give me a bit more time to think it through and not be in such a rush when I try and make a decision...

[ashersky]

Looking toward D3...mcmc is at L-1 and not voting him is Eevee, Yuma, liopoil, and Ahoppy (I am not counting mcmc).  So the hammer comes from this 4...likely scum here, I think.

[ashersky]

Getting late here, so I'll post some final reads here assuming a hammer consensus will be reached while I sleep.

My top reads for mcmc partners at this point are lio and mail-mi.  Lio for being scummy, for the possible staged fight/bus, and for fighting hard to stall the lynch after I came out with my results.  Mail-mi for the enigma factor, little content overall, and planting his vote on mcmc early and leaving it.  Could have been the "safe" vote during his VLA.

I do think someone who isn't on the wagon currently will be scum, and I don't think hammering should be worth too much town cred.

I think we are in good shape now.  My final advice would be if there are further town PRs out there, they not claim until they have to, and to really look closely at the D2 interactions with mcmc.  He did a good job of really not being around on D1, but he had to interact on D2, and that's where we'll find his partners.

[mcmcsalot]

Look, I know what I know.  I am not lying, I got a result that mcmc targeted nkirbit.  Nkirbit died in the night.  Mcmc has since claimed to not have targeted him at all, so there is no explanation other than he is caught scum.

To me, no other town PRs should be claiming today.

This is what it boils down to. It would take something like a cop result for me to believe mcmc over Ash at this point.

Really, just because he claims he is automatically believed. That is stuuupid.

[mcmcsalot]

Uh, yeah, ash is definitely not lying. Fine to hammer mcmc at any point.

Good work ash, let's read back and look for mcmc partners during night.

OMG cool you've heard enough just after I say I want some time.

[AHoppy]

Wow... a lot happened last night.  so first of all Unvote.  I'm willing to believe ash.  Just one quick question: What is a bus driver?  I can't seem to find that PR on mafiascum.  I would be willing to hammer mcmc, if you guys think we have gotten enough of a response from him.  Also, what does everyone think of waiting for mail-mi to respond before lynching?  I'm fine with doing that as well, I think it would be good to get his input first.

[spiritbears]

Uh, yeah, ash is definitely not lying. Fine to hammer mcmc at any point.

Good work ash, let's read back and look for mcmc partners during night.

OMG cool you've heard enough just after I say I want some time.

When did youbsay that?  Not wanting to be qhammered and asking for time to (to what, give us more reads??? After all. You told me you had nothing to add and would not counter claim....) Are not really the same thing.  Maybe you meant that. I'll give you the benefit.  But you should start talking if you're going to. 

[spiritbears]

Wow... a lot happened last night.  so first of all Unvote.  I'm willing to believe ash.  Just one quick question: What is a bus driver?  I can't seem to find that PR on mafiascum.  I would be willing to hammer mcmc, if you guys think we have gotten enough of a response from him.  Also, what does everyone think of waiting for mail-mi to respond before lynching?  I'm fine with doing that as well, I think it would be good to get his input first.

I'm not sure we will even hear from Mai again due to vla. I would like to hear yuma thoughts.  But robz has already weighed in. Casting a vote for mc...

[mcmcsalot]

Alright, so hopefully ashersky is a mafia rolecop, and this is why he was smart enough to go for me, if not stupid town is stupid and screwed us bad.
I am a jailkeeper, I jailkept liopoil last night which means ash is scum because I 100% did not target nk. I can also explain why my claim is legitimate. I was not around for the end half of the day, then this went into night and I could pay more attention to my other games, I forgot about this game entirely. Luckily raere was kind enough to message me because she knew I was busy and make sure I remembered my action, still not having much time and not having read I jailkept my top scum read. Then this day starts and immediately people start talking about robz and his claim. My immediate reaction, ugh I should have jailkept him because A he can't be a potential pr I am blocking and B he is an IC. Now lets go with my scum read on liopoil, I do think that he could easily have not done the nk, so he could still be scum, and hes statement of robz is probably alive because we have a doctor read scummy to me. I thought he was breadcrumbing a doctor claim, which believe to be false because IC/doctor/jailkeeper is crazy strong. So I pushed really hard without explanation in hopes of drawing out his fake claim(I realized later doc wouldn't have been an unsafe claim because we don't know if it was jailkept or not so the plan was stupid) but anyhow it didn't work but I still found him scummy for the reasons I stated as well as the claim breadcrumbing.

[mcmcsalot]

Uh, yeah, ash is definitely not lying. Fine to hammer mcmc at any point.

Good work ash, let's read back and look for mcmc partners during night.

OMG cool you've heard enough just after I say I want some time.

When did youbsay that?  Not wanting to be qhammered and asking for time to (to what, give us more reads??? After all. You told me you had nothing to add and would not counter claim....) Are not really the same thing.  Maybe you meant that. I'll give you the benefit.  But you should start talking if you're going to.

Jailkeeper is probably the strongest role in the game, I was hoping not to have to claim, then robz waved his magic now I am certain of things wand with IC status and gives everyone excuses to mislynch me so that changes the whole claiming thing

[mcmcsalot]

BTW, bus driver is a role almost exclusively in bastard games it makes everyone target a different person, I doubt it exists in a normal game.

[mcmcsalot]

Also I think ashersky is so clearly scum and I think my case on him is good, I think it was good enough ashersky decided to in usual ashersky fasion die for his team I mean look at this, he has fake claimed(I know that) he will be lynched today or tomorow, I think he is a mafia rolecop and decided rather than getting caught and lynched(he was going to) he would die for his team and take out the jailkeeper. Even if we lynch ash, unless I jailkeep the scum doing the nk or am doctored I am dead, so he has helped his team the way he always wants to.

[mcmcsalot]

Also more unvotes should come, I want to hear more from robz than go ahead I have heard enough(before I said much of anything) and its 9 am, he will be up in about 5 hours

[ashersky]

Alright, so hopefully ashersky is a mafia rolecop, and this is why he was smart enough to go for me, if not stupid town is stupid and screwed us bad.
I am a jailkeeper, I jailkept liopoil last night which means ash is scum because I 100% did not target nk. I can also explain why my claim is legitimate. I was not around for the end half of the day, then this went into night and I could pay more attention to my other games, I forgot about this game entirely. Luckily raere was kind enough to message me because she knew I was busy and make sure I remembered my action, still not having much time and not having read I jailkept my top scum read. Then this day starts and immediately people start talking about robz and his claim. My immediate reaction, ugh I should have jailkept him because A he can't be a potential pr I am blocking and B he is an IC. Now lets go with my scum read on liopoil, I do think that he could easily have not done the nk, so he could still be scum, and hes statement of robz is probably alive because we have a doctor read scummy to me. I thought he was breadcrumbing a doctor claim, which believe to be false because IC/doctor/jailkeeper is crazy strong. So I pushed really hard without explanation in hopes of drawing out his fake claim(I realized later doc wouldn't have been an unsafe claim because we don't know if it was jailkept or not so the plan was stupid) but anyhow it didn't work but I still found him scummy for the reasons I stated as well as the claim breadcrumbing.

This...this is all kinds of fail.  You refused to claim, then came up with arguably the strongest town PR to use?  You say you jailed lio, but if we look through all of D2, there's nothing there to make us think you had the knowledge that lio didn't do the kill, in fact you kept on tunneling...here's another instance of you really linking yourself with him.  I really do find it a strong possibility that you two are partners.

Besides, IC+Tracker+? is more believable to me than IC+JK+? any day.

AND how does the JK NOT protect the IC???

[ashersky]

BTW, bus driver is a role almost exclusively in bastard games it makes everyone target a different person, I doubt it exists in a normal game.

False.  It fits in regular games, and def with the high school flavor.

Regardless, you don't seem to think its a valid defense (hint: the only way you are town is if there is a bus driver), so I won't worry too much about it.

Your late fake claim is plenty damning enough for me to not worry at all that I'm wrong.

[ashersky]

Also more unvotes should come, I want to hear more from robz than go ahead I have heard enough(before I said much of anything) and its 9 am, he will be up in about 5 hours

Disagree.  I think the hammer is more likely.

You have entered caughtscumflail mode.

[mcmcsalot]

I would like everyone to post a Believe: ash/mcmc, doesn't have to be right now, but I want to know where everyone stands. In Pr claim battles like this, scum should not get the advantage. 1 for 1 is always good for town, now 1JK for 1scum is not so good, but we need to make it aparent who scum is and how they act toward this claim war. Often times a few people say yea yea I believe X and then Y gets lynched, becuase some people were voting before claims ect, scum wants to use the votes already there, I would love a mass unvote and a revote based on who you believe and why(while giving us time to respond to your questions) It's fine if thats too much to ask but thats why I suggest at least a Believe:ash/mcmc so it's still on record. I won't let scum get the advantage here, town needs to work though(we haven't at alll) at least this is something to get riled up about and brought back into the game.

[ashersky]

Also I think ashersky is so clearly scum and I think my case on him is good, I think it was good enough ashersky decided to in usual ashersky fasion die for his team I mean look at this, he has fake claimed(I know that) he will be lynched today or tomorow, I think he is a mafia rolecop and decided rather than getting caught and lynched(he was going to) he would die for his team and take out the jailkeeper. Even if we lynch ash, unless I jailkeep the scum doing the nk or am doctored I am dead, so he has helped his team the way he always wants to.

What case is that, anyway?  That you say I'm lying?  Keep flailing, man.

[mcmcsalot]

Alright, so hopefully ashersky is a mafia rolecop, and this is why he was smart enough to go for me, if not stupid town is stupid and screwed us bad.
I am a jailkeeper, I jailkept liopoil last night which means ash is scum because I 100% did not target nk. I can also explain why my claim is legitimate. I was not around for the end half of the day, then this went into night and I could pay more attention to my other games, I forgot about this game entirely. Luckily raere was kind enough to message me because she knew I was busy and make sure I remembered my action, still not having much time and not having read I jailkept my top scum read. Then this day starts and immediately people start talking about robz and his claim. My immediate reaction, ugh I should have jailkept him because A he can't be a potential pr I am blocking and B he is an IC. Now lets go with my scum read on liopoil, I do think that he could easily have not done the nk, so he could still be scum, and hes statement of robz is probably alive because we have a doctor read scummy to me. I thought he was breadcrumbing a doctor claim, which believe to be false because IC/doctor/jailkeeper is crazy strong. So I pushed really hard without explanation in hopes of drawing out his fake claim(I realized later doc wouldn't have been an unsafe claim because we don't know if it was jailkept or not so the plan was stupid) but anyhow it didn't work but I still found him scummy for the reasons I stated as well as the claim breadcrumbing.

This...this is all kinds of fail.  You refused to claim, then came up with arguably the strongest town PR to use?  You say you jailed lio, but if we look through all of D2, there's nothing there to make us think you had the knowledge that lio didn't do the kill, in fact you kept on tunneling...here's another instance of you really linking yourself with him.  I really do find it a strong possibility that you two are partners.

Besides, IC+Tracker+? is more believable to me than IC+JK+? any day.

AND how does the JK NOT protect the IC???

CAUSE I DIDNT KNOW THE IC EXISTED!

[mcmcsalot]

Also I think ashersky is so clearly scum and I think my case on him is good, I think it was good enough ashersky decided to in usual ashersky fasion die for his team I mean look at this, he has fake claimed(I know that) he will be lynched today or tomorow, I think he is a mafia rolecop and decided rather than getting caught and lynched(he was going to) he would die for his team and take out the jailkeeper. Even if we lynch ash, unless I jailkeep the scum doing the nk or am doctored I am dead, so he has helped his team the way he always wants to.

What case is that, anyway?  That you say I'm lying?  Keep flailing, man.

I hope you are scum and not busdriven(it does make sense with flavor) becuase man you are good at arguing and condescendingly brushing everything I am saying under the table.

[ashersky]

Alright, so hopefully ashersky is a mafia rolecop, and this is why he was smart enough to go for me, if not stupid town is stupid and screwed us bad.
I am a jailkeeper, I jailkept liopoil last night which means ash is scum because I 100% did not target nk. I can also explain why my claim is legitimate. I was not around for the end half of the day, then this went into night and I could pay more attention to my other games, I forgot about this game entirely. Luckily raere was kind enough to message me because she knew I was busy and make sure I remembered my action, still not having much time and not having read I jailkept my top scum read. Then this day starts and immediately people start talking about robz and his claim. My immediate reaction, ugh I should have jailkept him because A he can't be a potential pr I am blocking and B he is an IC. Now lets go with my scum read on liopoil, I do think that he could easily have not done the nk, so he could still be scum, and hes statement of robz is probably alive because we have a doctor read scummy to me. I thought he was breadcrumbing a doctor claim, which believe to be false because IC/doctor/jailkeeper is crazy strong. So I pushed really hard without explanation in hopes of drawing out his fake claim(I realized later doc wouldn't have been an unsafe claim because we don't know if it was jailkept or not so the plan was stupid) but anyhow it didn't work but I still found him scummy for the reasons I stated as well as the claim breadcrumbing.

This...this is all kinds of fail.  You refused to claim, then came up with arguably the strongest town PR to use?  You say you jailed lio, but if we look through all of D2, there's nothing there to make us think you had the knowledge that lio didn't do the kill, in fact you kept on tunneling...here's another instance of you really linking yourself with him.  I really do find it a strong possibility that you two are partners.

Besides, IC+Tracker+? is more believable to me than IC+JK+? any day.

AND how does the JK NOT protect the IC???

CAUSE I DIDNT KNOW THE IC EXISTED!

Which I don't believe, nor do others.  If that was true, and your claim was true, then dude, you SCREWED us.  That would be up there with worst town play ever.  Like vigging the IC bad.

Also, nice not actually responding to the giant holes in your claim.

[ashersky]

I think a hammer is due at this point.  Now he's demanding the town do things?  I believe me, so do everyone else who aren't your partners, and they'll say they believe me.  You are asking for official wifom, man.  It's a stall tactic and not useful.

[mcmcsalot]

Also I think ashersky is so clearly scum and I think my case on him is good, I think it was good enough ashersky decided to in usual ashersky fasion die for his team I mean look at this, he has fake claimed(I know that) he will be lynched today or tomorow, I think he is a mafia rolecop and decided rather than getting caught and lynched(he was going to) he would die for his team and take out the jailkeeper. Even if we lynch ash, unless I jailkeep the scum doing the nk or am doctored I am dead, so he has helped his team the way he always wants to.

What case is that, anyway?  That you say I'm lying?  Keep flailing, man.

Here's my rather large multi point case that was made loooooog before you claimed but keep trying to pretend nothing has happened before we claimed since yours looks better.

Ash saying me and youliopoil are scum together. I know I am town, so lynching me and youliopoil is either 1 town, 1 scum, or 2 town. Normally 1 for 1 is good for town, and I still think it is here but I am and have been pushing your lynch for a long time. So lets say chances you are going to get lynched are higher than average I think then, 1 for 1 is good for scum(better than 1 for 0) and if I am wrong about you 2 town lynches is amazing for scum. So if youliopoil are town or scum, ash pushing for the fact that me and you are a scum team together is really good for scum!ash and really bad for town!ash, I think that makes ash much more likely to be scum.

Here is my original thoughts of ash being scummy, because as I said him getting me and liopoil lynched is good somewhat regardless of liopoil's flip which I believed to be close to happening.

Man, who does this?  "I know!  I'll just say TWO players are scum so we can mislynch them both!  That'll work awesomely!"

You honestly see scum!ash doing that?  Am I not a vet to you?  Actually, do you see anyone doing that as scum?  That you argue it is "really good for scum" tells me you are building fake cases to take the heat off of you, which you have.

Insanely terrible case from obv!scum.

I think the big problem with both of your statements is that you both are making assumptions that neither of you should be making!

All of ash's arguments assume that mcmc is scum. and force fits everything else to fit into that belief. (ie that lio is his partner and that they are staging an argument/bussing...)

All of mcmc's arguments assume that lio is scum. and force fits everything else to fit into that belief. (ie that ash must be trying for a 1 v 1 trade since he figures that lio is going to get lynched anyways...)

How bout we lynch one player at a time and then worry about the rest after we get a flip, huh?

Woah yuma, thats not what I said. I said ashersky was in an advantageous position because if liopoil is scum it's a 1town(me) for 1scum(lio) which is normally good for town but take into account the likelyhood that just liopoil gets lynched(1scum) and 1 for 1 is better OR liopoil is town and then ash is just setting up two town lynches, saying we are scum together I guarantee he still thinks one of us is scum if the other flips town. And I viewed this from town!ash and scum!ash perspective, scum!ash is the one who benefits most from me and liopoil's lynch so I think ash is scum regardless of liopoil's alignment. If people wanted to lynch ash I would do that, hence him bieng a scum read of mine.

This is ashersky's response followed by yuma's misrepresentation of what I said. If liopoil is town it is better for scum!ash. So I was not assuming liopoil to be scum, my origional statement doesn't even assume ash is scum, it is that from my perspective, scum!ashersky is in a very favorable position and town!ashersky is really screwing town, that led me to believe that ash is more likely to be scum.

I'm here, dunno what to say, I gave reads, I have yet to reread the people I said I would, I'll do that during class breaks.

I am right there with you on not doing the reread I said I would, but mostly I just feel like we needed a jump start. So I don't know if there is anything specific that I want from you... or from anybody (well I would like participation as a starter from some people) but would you agree that we somehow hit a wall? How do you think we fix that and get moving? Cause sitting back and doing nothing is a horrible option.

I agree, okay, town lets go we are screwing ourselves. Everyone respond to how they feel ashersky has played. I think he is very hard to read and is often times all over the place, but one thing that I always notice, he is a huuuuuuge poster/contributor/stimulator. Lately hes just blah, I think it' because when he does contribute huge amounts, he is also usually a big lynch target, however he has said many times he is happy to be lynched if it leads to a town victory. I don't see that here. He sounded quite strong in his read on me but I don't think he is pushing it as hard as typical town!ash. Anyone else think hes playing differently?

This is later when I point out that ash has been playing off, which I totally feel is true. Though I explained it terrible and elaborated in:

Sorry if I wasn't clear ash, I don't think your scummy for not self-voting or dying for town. I think your scummy because your not as loud as I expect you to be. Self voting, and offering to be lynched I don't expect, but cases to back up your reads, lots of reads, challenging people on game theory, coming up with ideas, making people believe what you believe, are all things I expect from town!ash. All I see is ash who thinks I'm scum but doesn't push it or anything very hard. Not offering to be lynched and not wanting to stand out are two different things.

So I was confused because he didn't seem to be working as hard for town as I expected, now I very much believe that is because he is working hard for scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Alright, so hopefully ashersky is a mafia rolecop, and this is why he was smart enough to go for me, if not stupid town is stupid and screwed us bad.
I am a jailkeeper, I jailkept liopoil last night which means ash is scum because I 100% did not target nk. I can also explain why my claim is legitimate. I was not around for the end half of the day, then this went into night and I could pay more attention to my other games, I forgot about this game entirely. Luckily raere was kind enough to message me because she knew I was busy and make sure I remembered my action, still not having much time and not having read I jailkept my top scum read. Then this day starts and immediately people start talking about robz and his claim. My immediate reaction, ugh I should have jailkept him because A he can't be a potential pr I am blocking and B he is an IC. Now lets go with my scum read on liopoil, I do think that he could easily have not done the nk, so he could still be scum, and hes statement of robz is probably alive because we have a doctor read scummy to me. I thought he was breadcrumbing a doctor claim, which believe to be false because IC/doctor/jailkeeper is crazy strong. So I pushed really hard without explanation in hopes of drawing out his fake claim(I realized later doc wouldn't have been an unsafe claim because we don't know if it was jailkept or not so the plan was stupid) but anyhow it didn't work but I still found him scummy for the reasons I stated as well as the claim breadcrumbing.

This...this is all kinds of fail.  You refused to claim, then came up with arguably the strongest town PR to use?  You say you jailed lio, but if we look through all of D2, there's nothing there to make us think you had the knowledge that lio didn't do the kill, in fact you kept on tunneling...here's another instance of you really linking yourself with him.  I really do find it a strong possibility that you two are partners.

Besides, IC+Tracker+? is more believable to me than IC+JK+? any day.

AND how does the JK NOT protect the IC???

CAUSE I DIDNT KNOW THE IC EXISTED!

Which I don't believe, nor do others.  If that was true, and your claim was true, then dude, you SCREWED us.  That would be up there with worst town play ever.  Like vigging the IC bad.

Also, nice not actually responding to the giant holes in your claim.

Cool, your nice and fun to play with, I guess angering people is a legitimate scum tactic, one I know you are employing but its totally not fun. I mean, hes still alive isn't he, its actually very likely scum don't shoot the ic night one in a closed setup for fear of the night kill being blocked. So it's not that terrible play, terrible play was not ever posting in a blitz game when my scum partner died. I was very busy during that time and didn't read so apologies again. But really I don't think it's terrible, and i know I'm not the best town player but I think I have done a fucking good job here finding out you were scum and I think liopoil might still be scum too. SO if you are just going to be an asshole I'm done talking to you, I will continue to adress the rest of town and argue my side so we can get you lynched and make the right choice for town. If I get lynched I hope town takes my reads to heart, you will be lynched tomorow so it doesn't matter me arguing with you more, just going to keep pissing me off which is clearly what you want so you can just scream obvi!scum flail with no backup.