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[ashersky]

It's still tonight, I'm not done. I have a friend over, but I'm trying to finish the read of day 2 today,

You've falsely called undercontributing Eevee scum Eevee 4 games in a row now though!

At least I'm consistent.

[Eevee]

Mcmc, I think you are GREATLY exaggareting how solid your liopoil-case is. It's not like the case you built on me in pirates, as I don't think it's as much you inventing things, but you are clearly choosing to interpret everything in a way that suits your case. Dude, most of what you find super damning hinges on you calling the entire scum team (if there even are 3 scum, could be 2+sk or something really) early day 2. Don't you see how ridiculous that is? No one in our history of 50 games has been able to do that yet, and you are pretty much using "this would imo make sense" as a justification. I obviously have the luxury of knowing you are wrong as I know my own alignment, but I think you are suffering from a bad case of tunnel vision and I don't know why. Last time I thought you were super unreasonable you were scum building a fake case on me.

Hypotethical question: If you magically had mod confirmation I'm town, would that change your certainty about lio?

[mcmcsalot]

I was going to quote and stuff, but man there are some long posts.

So, on the mcmc post, liopoil response, and the two in general:

I think there are a few possibilities here (one or the other is scum, one or the other is town, etc.) but am beginning to think the two of them are having a staged fight.  They've played together enough to know each other pretty well, and it seems to me that they're just arguing past each other.  This strikes me as a planned fight to convince us that it is town on town.

Why?  A few reasons, including the fact that liopoil does have a number of scummy strikes against him, as shown by mcmc and others.  Mcmc has been scummy on his own, as he's admitted himself.  I think the interaction of the two, with mcmc tunneling lio but lio never OMGUSing or retaliating is completely out of character.  I just don't buy the conflict there.

The staged fight leads well into epic bus territory, too, since if mcmc succeeds, he gets infinite towncred. 

I still think mcmc is the way to go today, and this just added to it:

Okay let me preface, this is the exact same style reread and copy quote/compile into a word doc/respond after complete reread I did when building a case on eevee as scum in pirates. That is because I scumhunt in extremely similar ways whether I am scum or town. When I am scum I simply forget and look for what I find scummy. When I am town I tend to use town reads more because I have less faith that what people(even myself) consider scummy actually relates scumminess.

Next, I went into this as a complete reread(so a bit different I ctrl-f’ed eevee) though I came out with pretty much a case on liopoil.

Lastly I will post more thoughts and keep up now that I am caught up. So this is a bit more of a catch up/my thoughts and it may have inconsistencies due to “this is how I felt then/now” attitude I am trying to take as I think it is going to be the most helpful.

As a warning, this is probably going to have “hey you misrepresented that” moments and “that’s a stupid scummy way to look at it moments” but hey that’s how it goes, townies have their own opinions that differ from other townies so rather than writing things off try and look at it a different way(and suggest your own way of looking at it) because I think cooperation and a need to find scum is the advantage town has over scum.

That's 4 paragraphs of "this is going to be scummy so I'm saying it is scummy first so you can't count it against me" stuff, but yes, we can count it against you.  You did a reread of Eevee and built a liopoil case?  It just really feels like you are forcing the liopoil issue.

So my vote stays on mcmc.

I'm town you wrong. Also I said that I reread eevee(town) in pirates(I was scum) and made a case on him the same way. So I was saying if it looked alot like my scum case on eevee that was why. Also omg liopoil and me are a scum team!!!!! I would not by any means make this case if that was so. I do not bus teammates like this because it is bad. It shows connection if one of you flips scum(I have talked about tying to a townie all the time) However I agree liopoil is scummy the way he is responding with no omgus(He used to, I think he's better now)

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc let me ask you a question... Does lio remind you at all of yourself in the M&M game? because he does to me... Remember that one where you said something very similar to what lio said here:

Eevee, if you don't like the robz lynch, join the sudgy one! I think it has a better chance of going through than the mail-mi one. Also, I will hammer robz if it gets to the point where if I don't you will lynch mail-mi instead.

gah, sudgy lynch isn't gonna happen. I'd really rather not lynch robz or mail-mi, so I'm not sure what to do...

In M&M you said something similar about arch... that you didn't like his lynch, but were willing to vote for him. I remember because I pushed you on it hard as scum and eventually got you lynched for it. For clarification purposes here was your statement in that game

I agree I won't hammer because I don't support the lynch, but to me this is past deadline and someone who does find arch scummy should hammer as soon as possible

And now that I posted it, I see that I actually remembered wrong about this as your statements are actually kinda opposite of each other.

Hmmm.... I was reading lio a little townier because of this incorrect memory and was surprised that you found him scummy for doing something you yourself had previously done as town... but obviously that is incorrect as my memory was faulty... glad I went and check up on it.

Yea, I had a town read and stuck too it. As I would have done in this game. Though again I stupidly just didn't want to hammer town as I cared about stats in that game but did think we should lynch at deadline.

[Eevee]

It's still tonight, I'm not done. I have a friend over, but I'm trying to finish the read of day 2 today,

You've falsely called undercontributing Eevee scum Eevee 4 games in a row now though!

At least I'm consistent.

I'm actually serious. I have a phase of mini-burnout on mafia again, and I feel guilty for not being active enough. I don't want to have a perceived meta of someone who is always scum when he posts less because that's not true, as it would require me to post more and more regardless of my alignment to not get lynched even when I don't feel like it (pro-my win con either way), and I'd hate these wonderful games becoming a chore to me.

So please, reconsider that read, I think you know it's false. I haven't even been scum in like 10 games, you invented the meta read during a phase during which I've always been town.

.. sorry I'm probably taking real life stress out on you.    I know you mean no harm!

[ashersky]

I'm town you wrong. Also I said that I reread eevee(town) in pirates(I was scum) and made a case on him the same way. So I was saying if it looked alot like my scum case on eevee that was why. Also omg liopoil and me are a scum team!!!!! I would not by any means make this case if that was so. I do not bus teammates like this because it is bad. It shows connection if one of you flips scum(I have talked about tying to a townie all the time) However I agree liopoil is scummy the way he is responding with no omgus(He used to, I think he's better now)

I have bolded your scumslip for your perusal.

There are multiple ways to read this as a scumslip, but the one I'm most interested in is the "if one of you flips scum" portion.

You are convinced liopoil is scum.  So, by default, "one of you" will flip scum if you are correct, right?  So how does that not connect you to him anyway?  And you know you would reap towncred benefits from catching scum.

This argument doesn't work for me.

[mcmcsalot]

Something is really bothering me about mc's response to me
Really mc---you of all people know I'm different and have seen me probably at my best and at my worst. If anyone can read me it's probably you. So this appealing to others for help reading me just comes across as fake (lol..autocorrected to "cake").  I just can't buy you not having a read on me.  Even worse, saying I always come across scummy when you have never even see me play scum is just beyond puzzling.

That's the point, I have never seen you scum and have no idea how you will act once you are scum. So I am wondering where others have a town read on you. Although I have played with you quite a bit and feel we have a very strong(as well as one can online) friendship I do not think it makes me any more inclined to be able to catch you if you are scum. In fact I think it means I have more of a tendancy to read the things you post as honest statement(that or I am paranoid you will be scum and completely fool me thus I am over cautious about my read on you)

Sorry if I;m making no sense.

[Eevee]

The thing about mcmc I find scummy is his conviction about liopoil when the facts don't really warrant such certainty. But I don't really know, I don't remember him doing this as scum or as town before. It's certainly a bit spotlight-y for what I'd expect from scum mcmc.

[ashersky]

.. sorry I'm probably taking real life stress out on you.    I know you mean no harm!

It's okay.  If anyone understands frustration in this game, it's me!

[ashersky]

Something is really bothering me about mc's response to me
Really mc---you of all people know I'm different and have seen me probably at my best and at my worst. If anyone can read me it's probably you. So this appealing to others for help reading me just comes across as fake (lol..autocorrected to "cake").  I just can't buy you not having a read on me.  Even worse, saying I always come across scummy when you have never even see me play scum is just beyond puzzling.

That's the point, I have never seen you scum and have no idea how you will act once you are scum. So I am wondering where others have a town read on you. Although I have played with you quite a bit and feel we have a very strong(as well as one can online) friendship I do not think it makes me any more inclined to be able to catch you if you are scum. In fact I think it means I have more of a tendancy to read the things you post as honest statement(that or I am paranoid you will be scum and completely fool me thus I am over cautious about my read on you)

Sorry if I;m making no sense.

I think the town reads on sb (mine for sure) are based on the fact that he is EXACTLY the same as his other games so far, where he has been town.  He's also made posts that I just don't think he'd do as scum, even if he knew it was his normal town meta, just because drawing that kind of attention to himself wouldn't help himself.

We don't know what scum!sb looks like yet, but I think there will be a difference.  If not, kudos to him.

[ashersky]

The thing about mcmc I find scummy is his conviction about liopoil when the facts don't really warrant such certainty. But I don't really know, I don't remember him doing this as scum or as town before. It's certainly a bit spotlight-y for what I'd expect from scum mcmc.

Go read some old mcmc scum QTs.  He likes to build strong sounding cases on a scummy town player and push it.  He employed it in the newbie game I modded with him in it.

[Eevee]

The thing about mcmc I find scummy is his conviction about liopoil when the facts don't really warrant such certainty. But I don't really know, I don't remember him doing this as scum or as town before. It's certainly a bit spotlight-y for what I'd expect from scum mcmc.

Go read some old mcmc scum QTs.  He likes to build strong sounding cases on a scummy town player and push it.  He employed it in the newbie game I modded with him in it.

I don't think the case he is building looks super strong though. Like, I'm about 50-50 whether I think liopoil or mcmc is more likely to flip scum.. I certainly feel the liopoil-mcmc(-xeiron) interaction is very useful and deciphering what's what there could lead us to some very strong town reads / finding scum. The case he built on me on pirates was definitely outright terrible and I'm VERY wary of letting something like that happen eve again. Got to start to attack conviction I find unwarranted more aggressively and not let people off the hook too easily "just because we see things differently".

[Eevee]

I agree with the town read on SB. He just comes off SO genuine. Wasn't he "scum" in eHalcyon's game? I think he was against my faction, and he generally felt different then. Not like a curious team mate, but like an enemy. Granted, the situation was different as the teams were pretty much known in that game, but still. I don't think he would be able to seem this sincere if he was scum, and my hats off to him if he is fooling me.

[spiritbears]

The thing about mcmc I find scummy is his conviction about liopoil when the facts don't really warrant such certainty. But I don't really know, I don't remember him doing this as scum or as town before. It's certainly a bit spotlight-y for what I'd expect from scum mcmc.

I agree eevee. I have been screaming this all game.  Something is just off with mc's game. It's hard for me to believe he would purposefully play this way as scum. But jeez. He just can't come off of Lio...even to help build/destroy other cases. I guess I should chalk it up to irl stuff. But ibreally don't have a good fallback position here. I guess Mai would be my second choice.

[Eevee]

We should really analyze why the mail-mi wagon fell apart yesterday and got replaced with TWO townie wagons!!

[Eevee]

I would also like to note that the two people who are currently also possible to lynch, mail-mi and sudgy, are both voting for robz.  If they are scum, I would bet robz is not.  I don't realy know if this has any bearing on things though...

These are the types of things we'll get to analyze in depth on D2.

Heh, looking for the right page, this caught my eye. Pretty funny. 

[spiritbears]

We should really analyze why the mail-mi wagon fell apart yesterday and got replaced with TWO townie wagons!!

Yes. Good idea. I never did get on the Mai bandwagon even though he made some fairly strange posts. But ity gets back to (Yuma's?) Question earlier:  could we really be wrong on all three scum reads (majority)?  Probably Mai is the place to start ad I think the Lio-mc fight will just endlessly divide us without a lunch

[Eevee]

OKay guys really, Im just not into this game, I won't be a help to town later, and I'm not important. I do not care if i am the lynch, however i have learned from my mistake in bankers and will not self hammmer.

So uhm, as far as I can see, this was mail-mi's grand defense.. I'm trying to dig whose "fault" it was the votes stated going Robz's and sudgy's way. As far as I can tell, this was the mail-mi wagon at it's highest, but I'll continue digging.

Vote Count 1.9
{L-3}  mail-mi (4): Eevee, Robz888, sudgy, ashersky
Robz (4): yuma, mail-mi, liopoil, spiritbears
liopoil (1): mcmcsalot

Not voting: modestguineapig, nkirbit, AHoppy

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is sometime on Friday.

[spiritbears]

OKay guys really, Im just not into this game, I won't be a help to town later, and I'm not important. I do not care if i am the lynch, however i have learned from my mistake in bankers and will not self hammmer.

So uhm, as far as I can see, this was mail-mi's grand defense.. I'm trying to dig whose "fault" it was the votes stated going Robz's and sudgy's way. As far as I can tell, this was the mail-mi wagon at it's highest, but I'll continue digging.

Vote Count 1.9
{L-3}  mail-mi (4): Eevee, Robz888, sudgy, ashersky
Robz (4): yuma, mail-mi, liopoil, spiritbears
liopoil (1): mcmcsalot

Not voting: modestguineapig, nkirbit, AHoppy

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is sometime on Friday.

If I remember right, robz train kept growing and then when he came out of the closet, he pointed the finger st Sudgy and mist of us complied (I didn't because he wss st l-1, but I would have complied)

[ashersky]

My big fear with focusing on mail-mi now is that this has happened before.  We have good candidates and discussion, and then we veer off.

This was a huge problem in Bankers, caused by scum.  We'd be focused off-wagon, and then continually lynch on wagon for some reason.  Turned out we were being led astray by scum.

[Eevee]

Yeah, and the first people to turn, if I'm not mistaken and I very well may be, were nkirbit and ashersky. Ashersky looks suspicious if mail-mi is scum, but I really hate calling pairs. My suspicion on mail-mi is totally independent and is not connected to ashersky at all , but I think that interaction is worth noting. Thinking about it more, I guess it actually was mostly the Robz claim getting all the attention and then Robz preferring sudgy though, so that was maybe less informational than I hoped.

[liopoil]

So, on the mcmc post, liopoil response, and the two in general:

I think there are a few possibilities here (one or the other is scum, one or the other is town, etc.) but am beginning to think the two of them are having a staged fight.  They've played together enough to know each other pretty well, and it seems to me that they're just arguing past each other.  This strikes me as a planned fight to convince us that it is town on town.

Why?  A few reasons, including the fact that liopoil does have a number of scummy strikes against him, as shown by mcmc and others.  Mcmc has been scummy on his own, as he's admitted himself.  I think the interaction of the two, with mcmc tunneling lio but lio never OMGUSing or retaliating is completely out of character.  I just don't buy the conflict there.

The staged fight leads well into epic bus territory, too, since if mcmc succeeds, he gets infinite towncred. 

ha, that would be totally awesome. But I don't think not OMGUSing mcmc is out of character for me. I do have a history of defending myself heavily, but I don't always find the people accusing me scummy. This looks like whoops-I'm-wrong!mcmc to me, Because he's been wrong about me before and I don't think that he would push my lynch so hard or fall so far behind as scum. This looks like let's-mislynch-liopoil!xeiron because his case is very exaggerated and came out of nowhere.

[Eevee]

Okay, rereading mail-mi thoroughly. We ran up three wagons day 1 and two of them already flipped town while the mail-mi wagon just mysteriously disappeared, so I think this is very much in order.

I started rereading mail-mi's 51 posts(43 after game start) and summarizing his opinions with bulletpoints, but soon realized it is really pointless, his posts are so short you can all reread him yourself. I really encourage everyone to do that actually, as I think he is a key player for today because of yesterdays wagons.

The post count is really misleading, as most of his posts are really short and not about this game at all. The stances he commited to were supporting the Robz lynch, then supporting the sudgy lynch (both town) and now going after mcmc and then liopoil today. Really seems he is fine with whatever lynch the town is sailing towards. I think him flipping scum would make mcmc-liopoil likely town on town. Unless I missed something, the only players mail-mi expressed townreads on were MGP and by extension spiritbears, as he thought that their fight was town on town. He hasn't even mentioned most of the players.

[liopoil]

Okay, rereading mail-mi thoroughly. We ran up three wagons day 1 and two of them already flipped town while the mail-mi wagon just mysteriously disappeared, so I think this is very much in order.

I started rereading mail-mi's 51 posts(43 after game start) and summarizing his opinions with bulletpoints, but soon realized it is really pointless, his posts are so short you can all reread him yourself. I really encourage everyone to do that actually, as I think he is a key player for today because of yesterdays wagons.

The post count is really misleading, as most of his posts are really short and not about this game at all. The stances he commited to were supporting the Robz lynch, then supporting the sudgy lynch (both town) and now going after mcmc and then liopoil today. Really seems he is fine with whatever lynch the town is sailing towards. I think him flipping scum would make mcmc-liopoil likely town on town. Unless I missed something, the only players mail-mi expressed townreads on were MGP and by extension spiritbears, as he thought that their fight was town on town. He hasn't even mentioned most of the players.

Good points, I haven't given mail-mi close enough a look, just thought "oh, we're just gonna mislynch him again". But I remember in pirates the town got in trouble for not lynching him the next day after lynching TA instead of him the previous day.

[ashersky]

How about the possibility that scum is just coasting through this by lurking.  AHoppy?