Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ashersky]

From a mod perspective, I like watcher/tracker together in a game.  They compliment each other well, could work in the flavor, neither are very strong (like JK/cop/etc.).  With IC, it gives a target for the Watcher.  I think it is plausible that Yuma and I are it for PRs...definitely no one else claim!

[Eevee]

I've dont think I ever had a solid read on ash before his claim. I've noticed some scummy things about his play but conversely some towny things as well. There wasnt anything nearly as concrete as the claims to analyze before! Soundi a bit like you are frustrated your good play earlier isnt rewarded now.

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc, how dangerous is a scum fake claim without knowing any PRs?  You know this.  It is very.

How much easier is it to fake after roles are known?  Much.

As for Yuma...I think if its true, it makes the bus driver theory more likely, but the JK claim EVEN more fake.

Mcmc is lying scum, we can decide on Yuma tomorrow, mostly because mcmc's flip will confirm me for the doubters.

Still spinning bus driver theory(just like everything else) to his advantage, he doesn't even say why, this is the only reason I have been adamant on setting the record on that straight.

Also as I have said, you may have know my role this makes your claim very easy. My claim is not a convenient one that oddly fits with the previous knowledge and thus benefits from knowing other roles. My claim has no relevance to your claim, this is because mine is true and cannot be changed to fit what "makes sense".

I do agree claiming after knowing roles is easier, I would like to remind everyone you knew there was an IC in the game when you made your claim which you have not forgotten to point out fits very well with that. Is it possible they fit because they are true, yes, but it also means its easier for you to claim.

[ashersky]

I think I have to believe Yuma.  Zero reason to fake that, right?  I mean, maaaaaybe to save mcmc, his scum partner.  But then, why not claim this the first time he mentioned it, and he's not pushing anything forcefully.

[mcmcsalot]

I've dont think I ever had a solid read on ash before his claim. I've noticed some scummy things about his play but conversely some towny things as well. There wasnt anything nearly as concrete as the claims to analyze before! Soundi a bit like you are frustrated your good play earlier isnt rewarded now.

egads! No I am frustrated my work is going to waste. I'll go do some more real quick

Here's the post I made before it's got quotes from you wanna talk about them?

So I reread eevee, found so much helpfull info.

There was something rubbing me the wrong way about liopoil and now I see it: that level of confidence on mail-mi being town just seems scummy to me, as I really really don't see any base for it. Could be scum "stuck" in a read they had to fake for future wagon analysis reasons?

Maybe too late for that today, but if I don't wake up tomorrow, please remember this!

Okay so here you point out some scummy things liopoil was doing, I agree with it.

I think mail-mi is town for similar reasons that you think robz is town. This is really just ordinary mail-mi play, which he has been misslynched for before.

is it possible that anyone besides robz or mail-mi mightbe lynched today?

I would nominate you (as I disagree with that notion), but no, it's starting to be pretty late for that. Sliding into a nolynch would just suck so bad.

You still think liopoil is scummy but theres not enough time to start it, reasonable.

Alleviated a bit by ash's second post on the matter, although I'm just now realizing I'm way way too eager to give towncred for people for agreeing with me. Actually there might be something there. This is starting to remind me of mafia noir ashersky with our totally unreasonable day 1 arguments I later forgot to town's demise. I'll pull up some quotes when I get to my computer after my weekly floorball thing (so later tonight).

Really freaking glad I was right about robz and also that we have an interested town robz to work with now. This is just great. m

So now you think ash is scummy, and point out to towns demise you forgot this in a past game(are you doing it now) Also want to point out, I am glad you understood robz was town, I do not find you scummy for that at all as I also knew robz was town, it was obvious and I agree it was wierd of yuma to not feel the same way.

Why am I scummy for crazy defending Robz? Once again I think we area heading to a mislynch, I'm doing my best to not have that happen. Ashersky you really should know this isn't how Robz acts as scum!

Why is "my" case on mail-mi odd? Should I repeat it? How about the 5 other voters, all scummy or just me?

Overuse of AtE? Hmm, I don't know, I'm starting to be pretty emotionally invested in getting people to trust me about Robz.

It's scummy in a few ways.  You know you just ripped liopoil for his confidence that mail-mi is scum?  Yeah, that's you and Robz.  SAME THING.

It's scummy if you know he's town and you're doing this for town!cred as scum.

It's scummy if you derail the viable lynch and we hit deadline without a lynch.

Your case on mail-mi is odd because IT IS THE SAME AS THE CASE ON ROBZ and you are saying the two exact cases have different outcomes, when I'm saying it's just as likely they are both scum as it is that they aren't.  You've turned this into a Morgrim defense: basically, if Morgrim derphammered, he'd just get a "oh well, that's Morgrim!" but others would get grilled.  Now it's Robz being super scummy and you've giving him the "oh well, that's Robz!" instead of looking at it clearly.

You keep saying "man ash you should KNOW that Robz is town because COME ON you've played a million games with him too and should KNOW."  That's an AtE for sure.

I don't want to turn the spotlight of attention to me and ashersky disagreeing (again  . We've derailed these threads (when both being town too!) often enough for me to know better by now.

I can talk about it and feel rather strongly about my side, but somehow I think we won't agree even if we spend 3 pages arguing..

<

I guess I'm coming across wrong.  I can understand where you are coming from.  That's why I've said my heart yearns for Robz to be town.  But my brain can't ignore the signs that Robz is scummy.  You and I agree that scummy =/= mafia, but man, it's D1 (productive one at that!) and there's not a lot to go on.

I've mentioned that I think there are cases on both Robz and mail-mi.  I don't expect to convince you on Robz, and I think you won't convince me that Robz is obvtown.  And really, I'm okay with the mail-mi lynch.  So I don't know why we're arguing.

If mail-mi is lynched and town though, man you are getting a lot of attention on D2.

Robz, do you think these posts are a contradiction? Do you remember what ashersky was like d1 of Mafia Noir?

Here's a big case you make on ash, I am bringing it up because I think it is valid

[mcmcsalot]

Yay yuma is here, so I believe his claim 100% that is an unprovoked claim that get credit because it doesn't put yuma in an advantageous scum position, it would mean multiple scum fake claimed(highly unlikely)

Also the fact that all of our power roles have been outed is another reason ashersky's well thought out claim was definitely helped scum.

I think I have to believe Yuma.  Zero reason to fake that, right?  I mean, maaaaaybe to save mcmc, his scum partner.  But then, why not claim this the first time he mentioned it, and he's not pushing anything forcefully.

Glad we agree on something

[yuma]

Ok... I am back... I have read through the posts and now here are my thoughts

Here is where things stand from my perspective...

I am a Watcher
Robz is an IC
Ash claimed to track mcmc
Mcmc claimed to be JK

I think I am less concerned about there potentially being both a tracker and a watcher... Kinda. I mean who knows what raeshay might do. I guess this is why I like open or semi-open setups a bit more... there isn't any of this mod WIFOM.

So who to believe...

Some points from reading through the arguments:

- First let's define a bus driver so everyone is clear on the subject.

The Bus Driver is a role that can choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night action performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night.
For example, suppose a Bus Driver switches John and Jack. That same night, a roleblocker tries to block John and a Goon tries to kill Jack. In the end, Jack will be roleblocked and John will be killed.

For example, suppose a bus driver switched mcmc and X. That same night, a tracker tries to track mcmc and no one tries to target X. In the end X will be tracked and nothing will happen to mcmc.

Or

For example, suppose a bus driver switched ash and X. This scenario won't work as a bus driver... but I think it would work with a variant of redirector

Very rarely, a Redirector will, instead of redirecting all Night actions that targeted a specific player, redirect all Night actions performed by a specific player. This role is rare enough that there is no unique name given to this role.

Am I understanding this right? But ultimately that really doesn't matter. But if we are going to talk about it, let's make sure we understand it. If I don't, feel free to correct me, I was a bus driver in jot's game and it took me forever to figure it out. and mcmc, bus driver has been in normal games--like I mentioned above, it was in jot's game... it isn't just in bastard game... As for if it is in this one, that doesnt' really matter at this point.

- mcmc's initial response to ash's claim is telling. It obviously caught him completely by surprise. So then the question is... was he surprised as scum or was he surprised as town.

- I guess I also don't understand why if mcmc is town he was unwilling to claim JK until much, much later.... If I were town and presented with a claim that implicated me as pretty much obvious scum (seen performing a NK is pretty obvious) I would be very quick to claim and do everything I could to prove that I was town. It makes me wonder if he stalled and then came up with a PR that he could explain via his confusion regarding robz... (this really feels similar to me response in jot's game where I had to come up with a lie that made me look like I made a mistake, Robz do you agree?)

- I also think that if mcmc is scum, then fake claim JK is really good. Because as he says JK is one of the strongest roles in the game. As such he would want to out any other JK in the game for a NK tonight. And really, he knows JK is the best role, but he basically decides to JK blindly w/o even kinda following or rereading... Really at this point, this is the lynch-pin... (ha! see what I did there)

- also has anyone else noticed the statement that mcmc made where he saw lio breadcrumbing doc and that he tried to push lio hard to get him to claim? That is kinda weird. I mean if mcmc is JK then he might have had a similar response as I did in regard to watcher/tracker. But trying to get another player to claim (fake claim as he says) isn't really townie I guess. I don't know. Just a weird statement there... especially since in the very next post he is saying that unless he (mcmc) is doctored tonight then he is dead.

- the anger/emotion... I don't give town credit to either for that. Emotion comes regardless of alignment. I have been furious as town and furious as mafia.

- I don't like ash urging for a hammer when neither myself or mail-mi have had an opportunity to comment

 - I don't like the comparison between galz/eevee in the pirates game. There are some pretty obvious differences... for starters this isn't claim/counter claim where both parties claim the same role. It also isn't mylo. Galz's claim came at a point where if town believed him, he won and didn't have to worry about being lynched the next day. Obviously not the case here.

- also I'll note that mcmc repeatedly has said that he is getting through to "absolutely no one" well from what I read, lio believed you and mail-mi indicated that he did as well... that isn't "no one" but I can see the frustration. I don't know if that has any bearing on alignment though... although I do think scum tends to suffer from the "everyone is against me" illusion more that town does.

[yuma]

at this point I am ready to vote for mcmc.

[spiritbears]

at this point I am ready to vote for mcmc.

Your case seems legit to me. Solid.  and yes, i did notice mc trying to bait lio. I'm not sure waiting for (if not when) a mai response, who is probably just thrilled not be have the noose around his own neck, should be any consideration on when you drop the hammer. I am fine with you doing it now. I would however note, that robz last had a little misgivings about whether or not the two were both town. You may want to give him a chance to evaluate your case. However, he did NOT unvote or place his vote elsewhere even given the chance. And he did say feel free to drop the hammer anytime (said before the suspension. 

[AHoppy]

Don't hammer quite yet.  I'm still reviewing both cases and want to put out some thoughts as well

[mcmcsalot]

I felt as though I was getting through to know one because even the people supporting me weren't saying anything about me posts/thoughts.

At this point I'm sorry I suck as town(again) I just can't do the whole not look scummy thing. Take my reads to heart, I think I did catch multiple scum causing ash to claim to protect his team. We still have a good good chance at winning if town starts trying. Remember what I said before if you are town, BE ACTIVE, its much much easier for scum to post their thoughts on things after the fact, you want to make them post their thoughts on the spot or look like they are not participating(this is when you catch scum for lurking)

Ash is(will be) obvi scum, he is a good player and conversation tomorow will be tough to get through, I don't know what your best bet is on when to lynch him, scum will have to bus.

Last effort to get you to listen to me is that if you lynch me its an ash lynch tomorow and then you look at the interaction thus far and hope my reads are right because you won't have much more to go on.

Oh and let it be know, uber caring/rereading/analyzing mcmc is town mcmc. People tend to think I care more as scum, but I think it is the opposite, I care about winning in both scenarios but I think there's no replicating the amount I have tried to help town vs. ash's want to lynch meand end the day(he knows he's done for tomorow and just wants to end it)

[AHoppy]

Ok, before I get into the cases, some quick notes

I'm going with spiritbears and ignoring the whole bus driver possibility.  I don't fully understand it and so I'm just going to go with what I have in front of me

mcmc was never on the sudgy wagon
ash put sudgy at L-1
Not sure if this is relevant information, but I think that scum is pretty likely to jump on a mislyinch and put them at L-1.  Keep in mind though that this is my first game and I really don't know what I'm doing, so that may not be true from experience but it seems to make sense to me.

Sudgy's dying words were also to watch ashersky, even voting for him.  ashersky says its an OMGUS, but I'm not seeing it.  Spiritbears had intent to hammer, and nkirbit ended up hammering.  plus he had a whole wagon of 6 other people on it.  I don't see him singling out ashersky as an OMGUS, I would think it would be whoever started the sudgy wagon.

The short of it is, by the end of D1, I think ash was looking a bit scummy to me, with mcmc nowhere to be seen.

So I think even after re-reading both cases, I still believe mcmc a little more than ash.  Ash just has a scummier feel to me.  so I'm going to Vote: ashersky.  Yes your argument has been heard mcmc, and I think I like it more than ash's.

[shraeye]

Vote Count 2.11
mcmcsalot (5): ashersky, xeiron, Robz888, Eevee, spiritbears
ashersky (2): mcmcsalot, AHoppy

Not voting: mail-mi, liopoil, yuma

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Deadline is 8pm forum time on Sunday, June 9th

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.11
mcmcsalot (5): ashersky, xeiron, Robz888, Eevee, spiritbears
ashersky (2): mcmcsalot, AHoppy

Not voting: mail-mi, liopoil, yuma

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Deadline is 8pm forum time on Sunday, June 9th

Ok, as I assume I will be the NK tonight, my final reads for you...

I think mcmc's partner(s) have to bus here, so look for at least one on the wagon, my best guess is X.  Off wagon, I think liopoil is the clear candidate.  Spiritbears is the towniest player in the game.  I don't think Ahoppy aligns himself with his scum partner like this right at the end, so I see misguided newbie town.

We've got this guys!  Good luck tomorrow!

[mail-mi]

I know I haven't been contributing much (too busy enjoying Maui) but I believe ash more than mcmc and this looks more like town ash so I will state intent to hammer mcmc.

[spiritbears]

Welcome back (hopefully!) That makes you and Yuma with intent...

[Eevee]

I think everyone has said their piece, I for one am fine with a hammer.

[liopoil]

wait! I'm catching up now.

[liopoil]

Vote: Ashersky

gosh I want yuma to get here so this can be over one way or the other. I am getting through to absolutely noone and its the most frustrating thing ever.

You're getting through to ahoppy and I.

marks in ashersky's favor:

-claimed first
-might be a bad idea to do as scum, un-pressured.
-super-breadcrumb.

marks against mcmc:

-didn't put IC in jail.
-tunnels me even though he knows I didn't kill nkirbit.

marks in mcmc's favor:

-doesn't fakeclaim as scum usually.
-claimed second
-big townread of mine
-didn't seem to know robz was IC

marks against ashersky:

-only had a 1 in 9 shot of getting it right if telling truth
-mcmc likely wouldn't be the one to do the kill
-I think a JK is more likely than a tracker.
-This is totally something ashersky would try.

In regard to whether this claim is a good idea or not for scum!ash:

Right now scum needs to get 2 mislynches before all three of them get lynched, assuming 3 scum. After lynching mcmc and then ash, we're at a 2-scum-in-6 mylo, which benefits scum.

+whatever Yuma knows, which by the sound of it supports mcmc too.

Vote: Ashersky

P.S. this will be quite embarrassing if I'm totally wrong.

PPE: I don't see why nobody understands: yes mcmc is tunnelling, yes he is dead wrong, but that's no reason for me to suspect him. Everything he does looks like town!mcmc to me.

on a sidenote, I think xeiron is probably scum no matter what, but let's lynch mcmc or ash first.

ALL of this still applies. Add in yuma claiming watcher and I really prefer an ashersky lynch.

[yuma]

I am here and would probably like to hammer before I leave to work ~ 10 minutes.

[liopoil]

oh well.

[liopoil]

Yuma, I urge you to read the last post I quoted and think about mcmc's meta. He doesn't do all this as scum. The weird stuff, like not jailing the IC and tunneling me even though I didn't do the kill for sure is stuff that only town!mcmc would do.

[liopoil]

deadline isn't until 8pm tommorow, but if nothing can change, so be it and hammer.

[yuma]

Yuma, I urge you to read the last post I quoted and think about mcmc's meta. He doesn't do all this as scum. The weird stuff, like not jailing the IC and tunneling me even though I didn't do the kill for sure is stuff that only town!mcmc would do.

I disagree. Mostly because I think all of that stuff is basically lies trying to cover up his tracks. It really, really reminds me of myself lying about sending a PM to the wrong joth in Deep Space. You guys had a hard time believing it because it was just too wild. I say the same things about mcmc's response. It looks like a desperate attempt at being believed... just like my attempt was.

I don't see anything changing at this point, nor do I want it to because I think mcmc is mafia. vote: mcmc

[liopoil]

Well, I hope I'm wrong.