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[spiritbears]

That inferaction with Mai has me very comfortable with lynching either him or xerion....2 good targets, lets line up the votes.  (Robzzzzz!?!)

Like I said above I am uncomfortable lynching mail-mi while he is VLA. Lynching him without giving him a a chance to fully respond, claim and provide reads before death isn't ideal. If he was obviscum, or if we were at mylo... maybe I would consider it, but we aren't right now. It sucks that VLA has to affect the game, especially if mail-mi is mafia and is getting a free pass today, but that is just the nature of online games that take weeks to complete.

I'm not sure what vla you're referring to. His techno free tuesday?  How would that impact our soft deadline? He certainly had the opportunity to answer my questions but just like all game he just ducks it

[yuma]

That inferaction with Mai has me very comfortable with lynching either him or xerion....2 good targets, lets line up the votes.  (Robzzzzz!?!)

Like I said above I am uncomfortable lynching mail-mi while he is VLA. Lynching him without giving him a a chance to fully respond, claim and provide reads before death isn't ideal. If he was obviscum, or if we were at mylo... maybe I would consider it, but we aren't right now. It sucks that VLA has to affect the game, especially if mail-mi is mafia and is getting a free pass today, but that is just the nature of online games that take weeks to complete.

I'm not sure what vla you're referring to. His techno free tuesday?  How would that impact our soft deadline? He certainly had the opportunity to answer my questions but just like all game he just ducks it

this one:

Leaving for Hawaii on Monday, VLA til Friday or Saturday.

It was posted in the VLA thread. If you haven't already posted there I would recommend at least tagging it so that you will see the replies there. It helps keep track of people's comings and goings

[spiritbears]

Sorry. Missed that. I thought it was his usual techno thing. That said, I'm not going to say absolutely no lunch for Mai this week (as far as I'm concerned he probably should have been lynched last week/day). But I'm still on xerion and this should probably make anyone on mai's train reconsider jumping to xerion..for today at least.

[yuma]

Alright. This is getting ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. This town needs some leadership and motivation and if that leadership and motivation isn't going to come from our IC then it needs to come from somewhere.

soft deadline: Thursday at 9 pm forum time. Be there or be anti-town.

Eevee, mcmc, xeiron, mail-mi, ahoppy you all get a FOS for not participating the way I would expect and want you to. VLA exists I know, but still our participation rate is steadily trending toward the bottom in a very not good way.

Really this has turned into a game played by myself, ash, spiritbears and lio of late.

And Robz... I am significantly disappointed in you. If you are busy, I get it. Being busy is rough in these games especially with their pace... but you aren't just not rereading, you aren't directing, you aren't moving the game forward, you aren't doing anything. Obviously I am not pointing a FOS at you. But I am calling you out and saying "step up! We need you." But if you continue to not step up, I am. At this rate we are headed for a no-lynch, or a last minute scramble that in all likelyhood will result in another crappy mislynch.

I don't work today and tomorrow and am going to try and push this town as much as I can during that time. Robz if you want to jump in at anytime... go ahead... until then, well I am going to do my best on my own.

[spiritbears]

Here here.  Thank you Yuma. That needed to be said in a bad way (well you said it in a good way and much better than I would have) .

[yuma]

To help our IC who is obviously severely behind I am going to try and put together this catch up post... Sorry if I miss anything. I am going to try and be all inclusive, but if you feel I missed anything or placed too much emphasis on anything let it be known.

At this point in the game there are cases on the following players:

mcmc, lio, xeiron, mail-mi. Here is a recap of everyone written by yuma on the four players in question

mcmc first: ash makes his case on mcmc here:

and here:

lio next: xeiron makes his case here:

mcmc makes his case on lio here:

lio's big response is here:

xeiron next: yuma makes a case here:

along with his case on lio (see above)

lio votes for xeiron here: (it is at the bottom of the quote)

spiritbears votes for xeiron here:

mail-mi: is currently vla, but eevee made this case on him here:

Other things worth noting as I tried to find the more important stuff:

mail-mi is voting for mcmc:

ash and I got into a bit of an argument:

this is about the only major thing ahoppy has done today in fossing eevee and lio:

Hope that helps.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm here, dunno what to say, I gave reads, I have yet to reread the people I said I would, I'll do that during class breaks.

[spiritbears]

It should probably be noted that I believe I was the first one to make a case on mc (for inconsistent play and riding Lio), but got off that train when I decided tunneling Lio for an entire game was just way too risky for scum (a feeling I'm not sure but I believe yuma doesn't share). 

[xeiron]

To help our IC who is obviously severely behind I am going to try and put together this catch up post... Sorry if I miss anything. I am going to try and be all inclusive, but if you feel I missed anything or placed too much emphasis on anything let it be known.
...
Hope that helps.

Thank you Yuma.
Your post really helped me to look up the cases I have not been involved in.

My stance for these cases:
Prefer to lynch - Liopoil > mcmc > mail-mi > xeiron - will not lynch at all.

[yuma]

I'm here, dunno what to say, I gave reads, I have yet to reread the people I said I would, I'll do that during class breaks.

I am right there with you on not doing the reread I said I would, but mostly I just feel like we needed a jump start. So I don't know if there is anything specific that I want from you... or from anybody (well I would like participation as a starter from some people) but would you agree that we somehow hit a wall? How do you think we fix that and get moving? Cause sitting back and doing nothing is a horrible option.

[Robz888]

And Robz... I am significantly disappointed in you. If you are busy, I get it. Being busy is rough in these games especially with their pace... but you aren't just not rereading, you aren't directing, you aren't moving the game forward, you aren't doing anything. Obviously I am not pointing a FOS at you. But I am calling you out and saying "step up! We need you." But if you continue to not step up, I am. At this rate we are headed for a no-lynch, or a last minute scramble that in all likelyhood will result in another crappy mislynch.

I am really busy, and also I have significant, significant fears that my participation would skew the town toward a mislynch in any case. But I will catch up today, that's a promise.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm here, dunno what to say, I gave reads, I have yet to reread the people I said I would, I'll do that during class breaks.

I am right there with you on not doing the reread I said I would, but mostly I just feel like we needed a jump start. So I don't know if there is anything specific that I want from you... or from anybody (well I would like participation as a starter from some people) but would you agree that we somehow hit a wall? How do you think we fix that and get moving? Cause sitting back and doing nothing is a horrible option.

I agree, okay, town lets go we are screwing ourselves. Everyone respond to how they feel ashersky has played. I think he is very hard to read and is often times all over the place, but one thing that I always notice, he is a huuuuuuge poster/contributor/stimulator. Lately hes just blah, I think it' because when he does contribute huge amounts, he is also usually a big lynch target, however he has said many times he is happy to be lynched if it leads to a town victory. I don't see that here. He sounded quite strong in his read on me but I don't think he is pushing it as hard as typical town!ash. Anyone else think hes playing differently?

[yuma]

I do think he is playing differently... But like I said above is it ash actually playing differently (seeing that his approach in recent games as town isn't working...) or is it ash playing as scum and adding just enough of his meta!townself to try and create his old "persona"?

I am not sure. And like I said above if he is trying to change his meta I fully support it (but don't demand it!!) and part of that I would imagine is not self voting or offering to kill himself off for town (something that if he is town--and when he has offered that he often was--I think is negative for town, because it means we are lynching a townie! How does that help town?)

I am trying to keep an open mind with him, because like we argued about above... it isn't just his responsibility to change... it is also our responsibility to make sure that we understand his arguments. If I had allowed myself to listen to him in Bankers maybe we would have helped me see the scum in that game that I ignored because of my emotional response to him...

[yuma]

rereading ash's arguments on mcmc and mcmc himself with as open as a mind as I can muster... This is less for everyone and more for myself and keeping track of my thoughts... I'll try to post a prettier, easier to read summary later.

Alright right out of the gates ash puts mcmc and mail-mi high on his list of scummy based off vote counts.

His next post is wagon analysis and says this:

Best guess?  We're better off finding scum off-wagon.  One, maybe two scum there.  mcmcsalot is there again.  He and Eevee were most named as choices for scum partners, right?

Already according to ash, mcmc meets 3 qualifiers as why he is scum... 1. post count 2. wagon analysis and 3. most named for scum partners

He then immediately jumps into rereading mcmc and calls him out for not being around end of day1 and for his post about mcmc "knowing" robz is town.

From this he is calls mcmc a scum read... but he isn't finished with the scum read.

Mcmc then calls a scumteam with lio/spiritbears/eevee and that pushes ash over the edge and he votes for him and then creates a case. (note: my gut instinct is to find voting and then creating the case scummy, but the fact of the matter is that I do that all the time as town, but very rarely as scum...)

Ash's main points are: 1. off-wagon 2. likely partner of choice 3. lower post count 4. didn't "know" robz was confirmed IC 5. feigning indifference as a gambit 6. was on no day1 wagons 7. tunneling lio 8. trying to tie mail-mi and lio and then switching to lio-sb-eevee

Ash then theorizes in response to mcmc and lio that it is possible that mcmc and lio are staging a fight and adds a "scum slip" in there for fun... and also accuses him of misrepresenting.

[yuma]

Summary:

I think a big part of my dislike of ash's case was the parts that he added on toward the end... basically from the lio-mcmc addition, the "scum-slip", and misrepresenting.

But as for his actual original case on mcmc... That looks a lot better than I originally remember it. I think that part of the problem was that xeiron's really bad case on lio came also immediately after it.

What I think is going on in my mind is that I saw ash's case, but didn't really read into it too much as I felt xeiron was the better option. Ash then continued to add onto it with points that I don't really agree with (once again clouding my view of his original argument... sorry ash... but this is what I am trying to get at that sometimes in your cases you add fluff and junk to your cases (maybe you feel it isn't fluff, but I do) and then that kinda obscures your actual case and I come away only remembering the fluff.... But this reread has been good as I can actually see some quality there.

The points of the case I find intriguing on mcmc are not knowing Robz was confirmed IC, feigning indifference (although I am certainly not saying that the flood or classes aren't real, but rather that mcmc's voting for lio w/o rereading and not really caring that you hadn't), and the trying of mail-mi/lio and then tying lio-sb-eevee. Mcmc has said in the past that he tries to set up mislynches for the next day as well. Is this what he is trying here.

But ultimately I still find xeiron scummier, but I see where ash is coming from a bit better and I think I could vote for him (certainly over lio at this point and likely mail-mi, even w/o the VLA)

[liopoil]

Hi, I'm here, nothing to say. Agree people aren't talking nearly enough. and xeiron is benefiting from that I think. By not talking he gets less attention.

[spiritbears]

Well, the "knowing robz is town" was part of my original mc case ash borrowed/picked up on.  I think where ash and I diverged on mc was when I started pushing mc hard on his Lio tunnel vision. The harder I pushed mc, the more he stuck to his Lio case.  I admit it was terribly frustrating.  But I couldn't see that as scum behavior. I don't think ash really deleved into that idea and continued to see everything mc said ad scummy. I think it's totally understandsble, and it certainly would have been easy for me to take that view of mc. On the whole I don't think this makes Ash scum. He certinsly has reveled in leading the post count (and I really couldn't remember much of these posts early on).  But on the whole I think Ash is being helpful and scum hunting. Definitely more helpful than many others in this game!  Even if ash is scum we have much better targets in Mai and xerion.

[ashersky]

Alright. This is getting ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. This town needs some leadership and motivation and if that leadership and motivation isn't going to come from our IC then it needs to come from somewhere.

soft deadline: Thursday at 9 pm forum time. Be there or be anti-town.

Eevee, mcmc, xeiron, mail-mi, ahoppy you all get a FOS for not participating the way I would expect and want you to. VLA exists I know, but still our participation rate is steadily trending toward the bottom in a very not good way.

Really this has turned into a game played by myself, ash, spiritbears and lio of late.

And Robz... I am significantly disappointed in you. If you are busy, I get it. Being busy is rough in these games especially with their pace... but you aren't just not rereading, you aren't directing, you aren't moving the game forward, you aren't doing anything. Obviously I am not pointing a FOS at you. But I am calling you out and saying "step up! We need you." But if you continue to not step up, I am. At this rate we are headed for a no-lynch, or a last minute scramble that in all likelyhood will result in another crappy mislynch.

I don't work today and tomorrow and am going to try and push this town as much as I can during that time. Robz if you want to jump in at anytime... go ahead... until then, well I am going to do my best on my own.

I'm here, will respond to the latest bevy of posts.

Agree completely here.  The game needs to move forward AND Robz is dropping the ball.

[ashersky]

It should probably be noted that I believe I was the first one to make a case on mc (for inconsistent play and riding Lio), but got off that train when I decided tunneling Lio for an entire game was just way too risky for scum (a feeling I'm not sure but I believe yuma doesn't share).

There's a school of thought that backing down from a strong read after being called out for it is scummy, too.  So he comes out guns blazing at lio, you call him out for the tunnel, and instead of backing down, he sticks to his guns.  You see that as a towny move, right?  But he'd know that would look towny, and would do it as scum just as much as town.  That is his style as scum, too.

So I think what you are seeing shouldn't be used to give mcmc a pass.  I think you should listen to your gut, which told you early on that mcmc was scum.

[ashersky]

I'm here, dunno what to say, I gave reads, I have yet to reread the people I said I would, I'll do that during class breaks.

I am right there with you on not doing the reread I said I would, but mostly I just feel like we needed a jump start. So I don't know if there is anything specific that I want from you... or from anybody (well I would like participation as a starter from some people) but would you agree that we somehow hit a wall? How do you think we fix that and get moving? Cause sitting back and doing nothing is a horrible option.

I agree, okay, town lets go we are screwing ourselves. Everyone respond to how they feel ashersky has played. I think he is very hard to read and is often times all over the place, but one thing that I always notice, he is a huuuuuuge poster/contributor/stimulator. Lately hes just blah, I think it' because when he does contribute huge amounts, he is also usually a big lynch target, however he has said many times he is happy to be lynched if it leads to a town victory. I don't see that here. He sounded quite strong in his read on me but I don't think he is pushing it as hard as typical town!ash. Anyone else think hes playing differently?

What does the bolded portion mean?  I'm just blah, as in not contributing?  That's not true.  I know you haven't been reading the game at all, but there was a good few pages of discussion on my play style which included self-voting and such, which I've clearly tried to cut down on.  But again, it is frustrating beyond belief because if I DON'T self-vote, you call me scummy, but if I DO self-vote, you call me scummy.  So which is it?  Get myself lynched for town or I'm not town?  Go back and read those old arguments for why I was okay to lynch as town in those others games -- I've always preferred my own lynch as VT over that of town PRs.  In this game, I'm the most use to town alive.

And you don't think I'm pushing hard for your lynch?  That's the opposite of what others, like yuma, are saying.  Yuma is in fact arguing I keep adding crap points to an otherwise good case.  I am pushing hard, calling for, demanding your lynch at this point.  We need to lynch scum today, and you are scum.

[ashersky]

I do think he is playing differently... But like I said above is it ash actually playing differently (seeing that his approach in recent games as town isn't working...) or is it ash playing as scum and adding just enough of his meta!townself to try and create his old "persona"?

I am not sure. And like I said above if he is trying to change his meta I fully support it (but don't demand it!!) and part of that I would imagine is not self voting or offering to kill himself off for town (something that if he is town--and when he has offered that he often was--I think is negative for town, because it means we are lynching a townie! How does that help town?)

I am trying to keep an open mind with him, because like we argued about above... it isn't just his responsibility to change... it is also our responsibility to make sure that we understand his arguments. If I had allowed myself to listen to him in Bankers maybe we would have helped me see the scum in that game that I ignored because of my emotional response to him...

This is a fair response.  Of course I expected the suspicion that it's just scum!ash trying to act like town!ash, or play it down so I don't get insta-lynched.  But I did decide that if I want to win as town, I needed to adjust a bit so that I could have a more positive effect.  As mentioned, I sat out the last regular game and just spectated, trying to mentally adjust.

Every single time I've offered to die for town, or have self-voted, I've been town.  What's bad now, is that since I haven't done those two things specifically, folks assume I must be scum.  That's unfair, although maybe partly my fault for previous play, but it wasn't helpful in past games.  Serious question: do my fellow townies expect/want/need me to do either of those things?

[yuma]

expect... unfortunately yes I do kinda expect that sort of play from you.

want... no, if you are town I never want you to do those things. I think you have known this for a long time about me though and it hasn't stopped you before.

[ashersky]

rereading ash's arguments on mcmc and mcmc himself with as open as a mind as I can muster... This is less for everyone and more for myself and keeping track of my thoughts... I'll try to post a prettier, easier to read summary later.

Alright right out of the gates ash puts mcmc and mail-mi high on his list of scummy based off vote counts.

His next post is wagon analysis and says this:

Best guess?  We're better off finding scum off-wagon.  One, maybe two scum there.  mcmcsalot is there again.  He and Eevee were most named as choices for scum partners, right?

Already according to ash, mcmc meets 3 qualifiers as why he is scum... 1. post count 2. wagon analysis and 3. most named for scum partners

He then immediately jumps into rereading mcmc and calls him out for not being around end of day1 and for his post about mcmc "knowing" robz is town.

From this he is calls mcmc a scum read... but he isn't finished with the scum read.

Mcmc then calls a scumteam with lio/spiritbears/eevee and that pushes ash over the edge and he votes for him and then creates a case. (note: my gut instinct is to find voting and then creating the case scummy, but the fact of the matter is that I do that all the time as town, but very rarely as scum...)

Ash's main points are: 1. off-wagon 2. likely partner of choice 3. lower post count 4. didn't "know" robz was confirmed IC 5. feigning indifference as a gambit 6. was on no day1 wagons 7. tunneling lio 8. trying to tie mail-mi and lio and then switching to lio-sb-eevee

Ash then theorizes in response to mcmc and lio that it is possible that mcmc and lio are staging a fight and adds a "scum slip" in there for fun... and also accuses him of misrepresenting.

Pretty good summary.

I'll accept the criticism that maybe I obscure the strongest arguments of my case with the weaker ones.  If we spend three posts arguing the definition of scum slip, it takes focus away from the scummy behavior you would agree with.  The points are right, though:

1.  Off-wagon.  I think that's the best place to find scum, especially given the on-wagon NK.  I think majority off-wagon scum killed on-wagon.
2.  Likely partner of choice.  This is subjective and WIFOMable, but I don't think it should be ignored.  Mcmc is a very possible selection for a partner.
3.  Lower post count.  Mcmc wouldn't argue against this.  He usually posts a lot more.  History has taught us scum lurk more than town.
4.  Didn't know Robz was an IC.  This is still unfathomable to me.  Missed it while it happened?  Maybe.  Didn't catch it when reading the thread to catch up?  Impossible.
5.  Feigning indifference.  I think this is a possible gambit for mcmc because of his established meta that he really cares about winning as scum, and that he likes these games overall.  "auto in for all regular and blitz" is his mantra.
6.  No D1 wagons.  As mention (and I think we disagree here, but that's fine), I think no wagons is scummy, while all or most wagons is towny.  That's because I think scum is less likely to want to be on record voting for people, since we look at voting records all the time for analysis.
7.  Lio tunnel.  This is tricky, since I've made a few guesses as to why.  Lio is always a good mislynch target when town, because he's kind of easy to lynch.  So that's one thing.  I could definitely see it as a staged bus, given their history together and the way Lio isn't OMGUSing or reacting at all.
8.  Naming teams and switching around.  This looked like scum flailing at the time, and still does on re-read.  Tying folks together as a team, then going whoops, maybe this group instead is scummy.

[liopoil]

1.  Off-wagon.  I think that's the best place to find scum, especially given the on-wagon NK.  I think majority off-wagon scum killed on-wagon.
2.  Likely partner of choice.  This is subjective and WIFOMable, but I don't think it should be ignored.  Mcmc is a very possible selection for a partner.
3.  Lower post count.  Mcmc wouldn't argue against this.  He usually posts a lot more.  History has taught us scum lurk more than town.
4.  Didn't know Robz was an IC.  This is still unfathomable to me.  Missed it while it happened?  Maybe.  Didn't catch it when reading the thread to catch up?  Impossible.
5.  Feigning indifference.  I think this is a possible gambit for mcmc because of his established meta that he really cares about winning as scum, and that he likes these games overall.  "auto in for all regular and blitz" is his mantra.
6.  No D1 wagons.  As mention (and I think we disagree here, but that's fine), I think no wagons is scummy, while all or most wagons is towny.  That's because I think scum is less likely to want to be on record voting for people, since we look at voting records all the time for analysis.
7.  Lio tunnel.  This is tricky, since I've made a few guesses as to why.  Lio is always a good mislynch target when town, because he's kind of easy to lynch.  So that's one thing.  I could definitely see it as a staged bus, given their history together and the way Lio isn't OMGUSing or reacting at all.
8.  Naming teams and switching around.  This looked like scum flailing at the time, and still does on re-read.  Tying folks together as a team, then going whoops, maybe this group instead is scummy.

I gotta disagree with many of these. I have a town read on mcmc, so I'll kinda defend him.

1. sure, valid. Doesn't specifically incriminate mcmc.
2. also true of many other people.
3. mcmc usually does post more. as scum. Mcmc gets more into the game as scum than town I think, similar to robz. In general scum lurk more, but this is not the case in mcmc. I take this as a point in his favor.
4. yeah, crazy that he didn't know that. Why is that scummy? Do you think that he's faking?
5. possible gambit, or maybe he's just town. He'll act somewhat indifferent every time he's town, and sometimes when he's scum. Again, actually a mark in his credit.
6. sure, that's a bit scummy. But it is partially due to him being totally absent during that time, and having totally tunnelled me previously.
7. I'm not an easy mislynch I don't think. I've never actually been lynched. I've had wagons on me in almost all of my games though. So maybe more of an easy excuse for being off wagon, aka, pushing a lynch but hoping it doesn't go through. Staging a bus is certainly possible, but it relies on us BOTH being scum. The same can easily be said to be true about your thing with yuma earlier. And I've reacted to his case plenty, defending myself. I haven't OMGUSed because I think he's town.
8. mcmc is doing the exact same thing as you, calling scumteams based on his top scumread being scum.

#s 1 and 2 are more generic and aren't enough alone. 6 is fine too. The others, not so much, and a couple I think are signs that he's town.

So yeah, that looks nice and all, "look guys, I have 8 reasons why he's scum!", but I have to disagree.

Oh, and ashersky, I'm with Yuma in that camp. I do expect that sort of play, but I don't want you to do that. I think it is almost always anti-town. There are situations where self-voting and offering to be lynched is the best play, but most of the times when you do it that is not the case. So, I'll be happily surprised if you're town and never do that this game.

[mcmcsalot]

Sorry if I wasn't clear ash, I don't think your scummy for not self-voting or dying for town. I think your scummy because your not as loud as I expect you to be. Self voting, and offering to be lynched I don't expect, but cases to back up your reads, lots of reads, challenging people on game theory, coming up with ideas, making people believe what you believe, are all things I expect from town!ash. All I see is ash who thinks I'm scum but doesn't push it or anything very hard. Not offering to be lynched and not wanting to stand out are two different things.