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[ConMan]

What we're trying to say (or at least what I think we're trying to say) is that if you've played about 100 games, mainly with just base cards against a bot, you're missing out on a lot. Even if you picked out the 5 worst cards in each expansion, you could put them all in a "Worst of Dominion" expansion and play with them and you'd still discover some amazing things about the game - sometimes Big Money really is the way to go, sometimes you really do need one of everything to do cool stuff, sometimes you want to trash down to 5 cards in your deck and sometimes you want to bloat your deck to ridiculous measures. Some cards work really well no matter what Kingdom they appear in, and some only shine when they're part of a complicated combination (and many of the cards you don't like fall in the second category).

So maybe you *want* to remove some cards, and you have every right to and play with just those cards you like, but you don't *need* to, and we really think you should give some of those disliked cards a try, maybe even look some of them up on the main site or the wiki and find out what makes them so interesting.

[Davio]

I'm a bit surprised by some of the puritan and elitist outcries here, if the guy wants to play Dominion with just Village and Smithy, let him.

I don't really understand the need to point out that every card has its usage. While I don't doubt that this is true to some extent, it's just a game in the end. If the OP says he enjoys the game more without bad cards, I'm not going to say "don't drop Scout, you'll use it some day!" Every person can have fun with Dominion in any way he or she pleases.

I've been guilty of replacing Torturer when I picked it randomly because it was a game with my parents and I didn't want to never make them play with me again, because they wouldn't spot the Village-Torturer combo. There are a plethora of reasons why we can do without some of the cards, all equally valid because they're all subjective. "Scrying Pool and Philosopher's Stone take too long to resolve", "Scout and Counting House are bad", "Torturer is mean!". It's a thing of beauty that there are so many cards to choose from that we can just remove some of them without it having much impact on the game (unlike chess).

Customizing Dominion isn't a bad thing, it doesn't cause you to go to Dominion purgatory in the afterlife, it's just a variant, that's all. So just go ahead and take out some cards. You might find yourself wondering some day... this kingdom could use a card that does X. At that point you can look back at the cards you took out to see if you can include some again.

And if you are wary of actually removing cards, how about creating a custom Black Market deck? You add one kingdom pile (15 cards in your case) with one copy of every card that you would want to remove. You can only buy the top card. This pile doesn't count towards the "3 piles" for ending conditions, it's just an experiment to see if in some games some of these cards will be purchased. You can define your own rules for Ambassador etc. You could also declare a rule that you can always buy any card from it, not just the top one, that should make it even more fun.

Anyway, I encourage you to experiment, don't listen to all the purists, if removing cards from the game makes it so you have more fun, by all means do it.

[DStu]

I'm a bit surprised by some of the puritan and elitist outcries here, if the guy wants to play Dominion with just Village and Smithy, let him.

I don't really understand the need to point out that every card has its usage. While I don't doubt that this is true to some extent, it's just a game in the end. If the OP says he enjoys the game more without bad cards, I'm not going to say "don't drop Scout, you'll use it some day!" Every person can have fun with Dominion in any way he or she pleases.

I've been guilty of replacing Torturer when I picked it randomly because it was a game with my parents and I didn't want to never make them play with me again, because they wouldn't spot the Village-Torturer combo. There are a plethora of reasons why we can do without some of the cards, all equally valid because they're all subjective. "Scrying Pool and Philosopher's Stone take too long to resolve", "Scout and Counting House are bad", "Torturer is mean!". It's a thing of beauty that there are so many cards to choose from that we can just remove some of them without it having much impact on the game (unlike chess).

Customizing Dominion isn't a bad thing, it doesn't cause you to go to Dominion purgatory in the afterlife, it's just a variant, that's all. So just go ahead and take out some cards. You might find yourself wondering some day... this kingdom could use a card that does X. At that point you can look back at the cards you took out to see if you can include some again.

And if you are wary of actually removing cards, how about creating a custom Black Market deck? You add one kingdom pile (15 cards in your case) with one copy of every card that you would want to remove. You can only buy the top card. This pile doesn't count towards the "3 piles" for ending conditions, it's just an experiment to see if in some games some of these cards will be purchased. You can define your own rules for Ambassador etc. You could also declare a rule that you can always buy any card from it, not just the top one, that should make it even more fun.

Anyway, I encourage you to experiment, don't listen to all the purists, if removing cards from the game makes it so you have more fun, by all means do it.

I think there are two reasons:  First, the OP gives conflicting goals.  He wants to have more diverse games, but seems to dislike game-changing cards like Chapel or Goons.  Which directly leads to Second: He doesn't seem have mastered the game.
Of course, mastering the game might not be the goal for everybody, but at least for all* of us, getting better in the game was the solution to the problems the OP is describing.  I mean, most of us probably found this forum (or some other resource that finally lead us here) by wondering about some "imbalance" in the game, be it the overpowered Village or the unbeatable Silver or whatever. So while we are only halfhearted helpful in assisting the OPs proposed solution (ban some cards), we are advertising what in our experiece has worked for us (keep playing).
And third, most of us think that banning cards does not really solve the OPs problem.  At least not at that point.  I as much as anybody has raged on some Possession or Governour or Scout ruining an otherwise (seemingly) nice board, and if you then take them out, so be it.  But doing so before you have explorered and realized all the directions a Domininon deck can deck an which cards contribute to this deck is a bit premature to have an informed descision on that.  So we can of course tell him which cards are overall the least influencal (an this as also be done more than once in this thread), but this will not really give more variety in the game.  For this, you have to play different types of decks.

*ingoring edge cases.

[lespeutere]

Well, this is an elitist community in the sense of all of us being very interested in dominion (or mafia). And most people, especially well-known and regular posters, are have at least a decent grasp of the game. Part of this is, that every card has its strengths and weaknesses, and this is something we don't want newbies to miss (or to forget). This is a phenomenon which, I think, evolves especially when people play within a never changing group of people such that innovative utilisation of cards happens very rarely. Typical cards to be misevaluated would be spy or thief, imho. Or it might even take a loooong time to realise how chapel can be used effectively (I remember DXV's comment on this how he just toyed around in one game with trashing his whole hand (coppers and estates) instead of just estates).
So, in other words, comments like 'chapel makes the game boring, as it's just about trashing estates and buying silvers and golds to get provinces' or 'he had 6 spies and destroyed my game with them; well, he had witches as well, so I only had curses and victory cards in my hands' makes me wanting to tell him that there is quite something to learn. And that he'll miss quite some points. And in addition to this, some of the discussion was somehow hampered by misunderstandings.

Anyway, if this helps you, bodybuilder, here's a list of 4 cards from base and intrigue (with some short comments) as you already mentioned 4 cards from prosperity (trade route, bishop, monumen, goons), so this would be fair again. I wouldn't recommend removing any cards, though. ;-)

chancelor (although I like it), spy (although there are sets were I'd prefer it to silver), thief (although it can be a good card in 4 (or 3) player games and especially with gardens), adventurer (which I really buy rarely).

coppersmith (maybe this is not too bad to remove as many new players think this is an absolutely great card), pawn (sure, this can be good, but again, maybe not too bad to removed as used for +1 card, +1 action too often), saboteur (as it belongs to the vicious circle cards (like thief and spy) within play groups: if he bought one, I HAVE to buy one myself to keep things even), scout (considered the weakest card in the game - so far)

[bodybuilder]

I still can not get out of it .. I like spy and thief because it is a mechanical interactive and easy to use. I do not like instead of chancellor scouts and maybe because I do not understand how easy it is to use them .. but it is also true that they are very debolie cards that you would prefer money and do not always take them. that's why I would like to take them off.
I like the cards reaction,  all, so even if I would like to keep them weak. I do not like wishing wells because I had to guess what's on my deck, or am I supposed to remember the order of cards put on the deck with the scout! and this memory game I do not like .. I like the cards of attack, but the saboteur it seems useless in this,  it does not create so much damage to take a card and give that costs less,  also slows down the game.

we do so, we start from the basic set and intrigue,  and Advise what to remove according to what I wrote above, so after we think of prosperity!

[pst]

I'm a bit surprised by some of the puritan and elitist outcries here, if the guy wants to play Dominion with just Village and Smithy, let him.

Absolutely, but instead of just removing the cards he doesn't like he asks us what cards he should remove.

He dislikes some cards for various reasons and doesn't want to play with them. OK, fine!

But then it seems like he assumes that this is what everyone thinks about the game, and that we who have played it more have thought the same about even more cards, and can warn him against those so he can avoid them as well, without having to actually play through the boring games with those cards, as we had to do. Then our answer must be that that is simply not the case.

That could certainly have been a good move if Dominion wasn't such a good game. It could have been the case that there are some bad cards that experienced players agreed on to remove from play to make it better, and then it makes sense to get in the know at once.

[dondon151]

I at least wouldn't suggest removing cards that you dislike, but removing cards that everyone dislikes. After awhile you'll find that people will come to a consensus on not including certain cards in certain kingdoms. Sometimes that really is because a card is too strong or its power is misjudged because the players haven't mastered the game.

I used to remove certain cards from kingdoms or strike them from my randomizer. Then I got way better at the game and I no longer cared about that. When playing with less experienced players, I'll choose to exclude certain cards that lead to demoralizing endgames. But this choice is also informed by a wealth of experience.

[Davio]

Just sidetracking for a bit here, but still relevant: Has anyone ever tried a drafting system (every player picks X cards) and did it lead to too many similar games or more varied games?

What I've done in the past is give every player a few random cards and let them pick which one to play with.
So for instance with 3 players I would give each player 6 random cards and let them pick 3. That gives us 9 kingdom cards and the tenth could be random.

It's a pretty fun mechanism. You could pick your own 3-card combo and be surprised it works great or not so well with the cards the others have chosen. If I recall correctly, it didn't automatically always include the same cards. Maybe too many Villages, but oh well.

There are other ways to draft, but in essence I find that it works decently enough.

[Mole5000]

Just sidetracking for a bit here, but still relevant: Has anyone ever tried a drafting system (every player picks X cards) and did it lead to too many similar games or more varied games?

What I've done in the past is give every player a few random cards and let them pick which one to play with.
So for instance with 3 players I would give each player 6 random cards and let them pick 3. That gives us 9 kingdom cards and the tenth could be random.

It's a pretty fun mechanism. You could pick your own 3-card combo and be surprised it works great or not so well with the cards the others have chosen. If I recall correctly, it didn't automatically always include the same cards. Maybe too many Villages, but oh well.

There are other ways to draft, but in essence I find that it works decently enough.

We often do a draft but we also deal out one extra pile than there are players.  The random extra cards come from that pile.  We added the extra pile because we were finding that when the group had the whole set to choose from between us the Kingdoms started to seem rather similar.

[SCSN]

Remove whatever cards you feel would make it more enjoyable and see how that works out! Others can't tell you what will make it fun for you, and you don't need their approval to experiment, it's your game.

But analogies are fun, so hey, let's go:
It would be like asking which chess piece we could do without.

When my father taught his impatient 5yo son to play, I got so bored by that slow-paced weak-moving piece called Pawn that I suggested banning them altogether. Luckily, he obliged, and I was getting really excited about this upcoming awesomeness where I could play all my strong pieces right away!

The first game was fun, the second, well, eh, kind of... but ever since the third I've appreciated Pawn as by far the strongest piece in the game.

[Blueswan]

I honestly do not like the fact that you are looking to remove cards from a game that enhance different aspects of Dominion. There are several reasons why I think it's the wrong way to look at Dominion.

1) It takes a game/expansion DXV balanced and unbalances it.

Let's look at the cards you've suggested to eliminate from the Base set; the cards are chancellor, chapel, woodcutter, thief, and cellar. Already you've taken away one of the four cards in that set that provide +Buy, one of the five attack cards, a card that helps create strong engines (chapel), and a card that helps you not to choke on victory cards (cellar). Assuming a game with no moat on the board and with base set cards only, Witch becomes REALLY powerful now since your opponents cannot trash fast nor create an engine that won't easily choke on victory cards or curse cards (something that cellar helps with GREATLY). I could go Witch+Big Money and win every single time since I know that you can't hurt me because Thief will NEVER exist in any upcoming game and even if there's a Moat, I know I can break through eventually since you won't have a moat every time in your hand. Essentially, you create instability when you remove cards you "don't like" from a game.

2)Where will you stop?

Well now you see from my previous example that Witch+Big Money is essentially unstoppable due to the fact you've removed most cards that help counter Witch. So now you say "Well, let's just remove Witch then!". Now you think the game is "balanced and fun". However it's clearly the opposite; you just end up shifting the power.

Since curses cannot be handed out, Militia becomes another key card that can change the game. A couple more games go by and you find Militia annoying every time your opponent plays it because you can't build your engine while he's reducing your hand and throwing around massive combos. So now you've removed Militia. Bureaucrat then steps up to the plate for the next couple of games and you then decide to remove it too due to the massive amounts of victory cards in your hand. Then you might as well remove Moat because it serves no purpose now, four of the five attacks are gone. Spy is a weak attack and Moat doesn't do anything substantial against Spy.

Well....since spy sucks, let's just get rid of it too. More games go by and you notice that someone wins a lot because he's just buying as many cards as possible with tons of Markets and Festivals and then buying the Gardens to really have a high score. You remove Markets (since it replaces itself) and Gardens (so no one can just buy tons of cards and win) as a result. Now look at your Base set.

Out of the 26 cards you've started with, you have removed 12 and are now down to 14 cards with no interactivity between them (no attack cards are left). It's essentially the same game every time (something the Base set already suffers from) since there isn't enough variation between the cards to change the game at all. You've essentially neutered the game because one strong strategy emerges every time and have created a game that doesn't push any creativity or improvisation. This effect gets exasperated more as you add more expansions since you'll get connections between them that are really deadly. For example, Goons may be gone, but you can still do the famous Kings Court + Goons + Masquerade Pin with Militia substituting Goons (no victory tokens on the side, just the pleasure of watching the world burn). Might as well remove those cards as well if you dislike that combo. This point essentially goes back to point one and just throws off the balance, but once you've taken enough cards away and you've finally achieved a perfect balance, the game is below average at best and nowhere as good as it used to be.

3)Dominion is a learning experience.

I do not like loan (why should I trash my treasure?) and the cards that use the add-ins. no longer seems dominion if there are extra components!

This is what makes Dominion special; the fact that you learn as you play more games. I thought chapel sucked when I first started, I mean, why would you want to trash your precious money? It's CRAZY!

Then I started seeing people beat me because they got all the curses, coppers, and estates out of their deck due to Chapel and created an engine that buys two provinces every turn. So I LEARNED that Chapel helps speed your deck up tremendously. Loan is the same way. NO ONE wants coppers, which is why loan is there. It doesn't take up actions, and if you are building a engine friendly deck that generates virtual coin, Loan just get's rid of those coppers that get in the way. You learn when you play Dominion. If someone keeps winning when they buy Chapel, don't remove it from the game! BUY CHAPEL THE NEXT TIME YOU PLAY!

Also, the extra components EXPAND (hahahaha) the game and cause you to think differently, causing you to LEARN different strategies. Intrigue adds more interactivity, something the base set lacks. Seaside adds duration cards which help you for two turns, something that didn't appear previously. Alchemy added a new treasure and cards to buy with it. Prosperity added MORE treasure and victory tokens, points that don't clutter your deck with cards that are essentially useless until the game ends. Cornucopia tells you that "It's okay if you buy one of everything because here are some cards that reward you if you do!". Hinterlands shows you the cool effects of buying/gaining, something that helps you out instead of having tons of buys but not many options. Dark Ages trashes (hahahaha *slaps knee*) the myth (for newbies) that "Trashing=Bad" and throws in cards that ENCOURAGE trashing. I would talk about Guilds if I knew more about it, but it will do the same thing!

Dominion forces you to learn. You don't learn when you remove cards you personally don't want to see.

That's why I disagree with you and encourage you to play with ALL the cards.

Epic first post! 

[Grujah]

DVX said that you can make kingdom in any way you like.
Preconstructed, all-random, draft-style.
That includes "all random with X cards vetoed".

It is in the rules!

[bodybuilder]

I like totally random, but I want to make sure that some cards do not ever come out,  just taking off!

[greatexpectations]

Here's my advice: Look in the back of the rules for Intrigue and Prosperity, there are some recommended sets using base or base and Intrigue in the case of Prosperity. You can include a lot of the cards listed there. So instead of looking for cards to remove you can look for cards to include.

You want to play "interesting kingdoms" that probably don't have big money as the dominant strategy?

Maybe onigame's Dominion Set Generator would be of interest to you?

this is time for a shameless plug for the Recommended Kingdoms page on the wiki. it has all of the recommended kingdoms from the expansion rulebooks as well as over 50 different tournament kingdoms.

[DStu]

Here's my advice: Look in the back of the rules for Intrigue and Prosperity, there are some recommended sets using base or base and Intrigue in the case of Prosperity. You can include a lot of the cards listed there. So instead of looking for cards to remove you can look for cards to include.

You want to play "interesting kingdoms" that probably don't have big money as the dominant strategy?

Maybe onigame's Dominion Set Generator would be of interest to you?

this is time for a shameless plug for the Recommended Kingdoms page on the wiki. it has all of the recommended kingdoms from the expansion rulebooks as well as over 50 different tournament kingdoms.

[OT: Should these use the Template for Kingdoms (see e.g. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Dominion_%28Base_Set%29#Recommended_Sets_of_10 , or was there some reason against it.  If not, maybe the bot needs some exercise]

[greatexpectations]

[OT: Should these use the Template for Kingdoms (see e.g. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Dominion_%28Base_Set%29#Recommended_Sets_of_10 , or was there some reason against it.  If not, maybe the bot needs some exercise]

they probably should use that template, yeah. when i entered the kingdoms i just copied and pasted from the sources. you (or others?) later formatted them. this page probably just had less visibility than the expansion pages.

[bodybuilder]

I finally decided! I preferred to take only the cards you do not like no matter which set they belong.
here is what I deleted:
base: chapel,  chancellor
intrigue: saboteur, scouts,  Wiching wells
prosperity: loan, trade route,  counting house,  contraband

I also left the cards that use the components victory points in prosperity.

additional advice for me?

P.S. I apologize if I'm seemed immoral and arrogant,  was not my intention

[Davio]

Sad to see Chapel go, there are a lot of boards where it isn't an auto-buy at all and even if it is, there is still some skill involved in using it. But you mentioned you don't like the memory aspect of the game and knowing exactly how much money you have in your deck can be taxing on your brain.

The rest of the cards: They won't be missed.

I would switch Chapel back in and remove Swindler, a tad too swingy for my tastes.

Otherwise: Go out there and have fun.

[bodybuilder]

if you think about it,  the chapel is the only card that allows you to trash cards without receiving anything in return. then you understand that it is a strategy in itself, and completely revolutionizes the game. I do not like it at all. it's different from all the others cards.

[Davio]

Well, you're still including Steward...

[Stealth Tomato]

maybe it's an idiot, but it was boring to see him play only! I could not do anything! he played one card after the other and bought duchies.
I do not want this in my games

if you think about it,  the chapel is the only card that allows you to trash cards without receiving anything in return. then you understand that it is a strategy in itself, and completely revolutionizes the game. I do not like it at all. it's different from all the others cards.

Excuse me while I be a dick for a moment: Your problem is not that certain cards make Dominion bad. Your problem is that you are currently not very good at Dominion. Part of the Dominion experience is learning to adjust your strategy for unusual boards or unusual situations. Most people here would in fact argue that this is the most fun and the most unique part of the Dominion experience. The same strategy does not work every time.

It sounds like you are trying to turn Dominion into an easier game. At that point, I recommend finding a different game.

[jaybeez]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you need to "fix" Dominion by excluding certain cards, maybe you'd be better off just playing a different game.  The variability of the experience is what makes Dominion fun (to me at least) and if you don't like that, maybe Dominion is not the right game for you.

Edit: Ninja'd by a guy with "stealth" in his name, how appropriate.

[bodybuilder]

I do not want to turn anything! At this point there should not be even the kingdoms preset,  instead we are and advises them the author!

evidently some cards need other to work well, so if they go out on their own (choosing randomly),  they are useless!

I avoid this problem by not ever go out casually cards that have mechanical properties that I do not like!

and stop making the purists,  I'm not saying that I removed the cards are not good, I'm just saying I do not like and therefore do not want them!

[DStu]

if you think about it,  the chapel is the only card that allows you to trash cards without receiving anything in return. then you understand that it is a strategy in itself, and completely revolutionizes the game. I do not like it at all. it's different from all the others cards.

I think you should test it a bit longer.  It's true that Chapel drastically changes the board, but it is not a (very good) strategy on itself.  Just buying Chapel and money will not beat say just buying Smithy and money.
Instead, the Chapel is a very strong enabler for all sort of combo-decks and engines, which are usually considered as the more interesting and diverse decks. Edit2: But if you don't like those, banning Chapel is certainly pretty efficient.

Edit: I don't think that per se banning some cards makes Dominion the wrong game for someone.  If you don't like them, don't play with them.  But when you first understand them, you will make a more informed decision.
Also, banning just 7 weak cards will not really in change much in your experience of Dominion, except you won't never see this cards.  On average, you have 1 of these cards per game, so if your kingdoms are boring with 10 cards, they will be boring by taking away the most boring one and adding another average card.  Banning dominant cards changes the game, but banning a few weak cards won't change it much.  It will just take away the situations where these cards are strong (i.e. Counting House is a nice counter to Mountebank)

:e

and stop making the purists,  I'm not saying that I removed the cards are not good, I'm just saying I do not like and therefore do not want them!

But you are asking for feedback, and we can't give you much feedback on which cards you don't like...

[math]

Most of your selections are good.  Chapel is the one I disagree with, but that has been addressed already by several others.

If you don't like these cards, don't play with them! You can pick kingdoms any way you like, and that includes removing any cards you don't like.  If you're just doing this for fun, that's all you need.

However, if you want to get better at the game, you need to learn how to play properly with Chapel.  Learning when to buy it, and when not to buy it, is one of the most important skills to help you improve at the game.