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[sudgy]

I was thinking recently, sometimes when I have just a Smithy I'm afraid to play it in fear that I'll draw dead actions.  But, now that I think about it, unless you have a special action card in your deck, you should usually play the Smithy.  You might get a bit more coins, and it will increase cycling.  Has anybody else thought about this?

[LastFootnote]

If playing the Smithy will get me close to reshuffling without actually triggering it, I'll usually play it. If it would trigger a reshuffle, I sometimes won't. There are lots of variables, of course, but that's the one that springs to my mind.

[SirPeebles]

The proper way to use Smithy.

[popsofctown]

Well, in a vacuum, like, if you aren't counting your cards or tracking deck/discard at all, then Smithy has no effect on whether you have an action remaining when your action cards come around.  The odds of drawing action cards dead is equally and oppositely opposed by the improved cycling, so over all it's a null, so your smithy is really just "+3$", (or maybe +2$ if you've got lots of those action cards running around).

WITH card counting, you might know that the remaining cards in your deck are dense with actions, so maybe you shouldn't play the Smithy.   The most extreme case would be something like, the next three cards in your deck are certain to be Village, Smithy, Laboratory.

But, what happens in practice is that that kind of clump rarely happens.  And if the thing you are considering is whether to draw Witch/Copper/Copper dead, then, yes the correct play is not to play the Smithy, but the real focus should be, why are you buying Smithy in a game where it is competing with such a powerful terminal?

It's a problem that will mostly come up in engine decks that somehow sputter when they shouldn't, and sometimes it is tricky to decide.  You have to consider whether playing the Smithy will make you jump the 4-5$ gap anyhow, if it doesn't you should lean towards not playing it.

[DG]

This is more of a problem with a moat than a smithy, typically in a deck with moat and witch.

[sudgy]

This is more of a problem with a moat than a smithy, typically in a deck with moat and witch.

It's more any terminal draw, Smithy is just what came to mind.

[WanderingWinder]

Well, in a vacuum, like, if you aren't counting your cards or tracking deck/discard at all, then Smithy has no effect on whether you have an action remaining when your action cards come around.  The odds of drawing action cards dead is equally and oppositely opposed by the improved cycling, so over all it's a null, so your smithy is really just "+3$", (or maybe +2$ if you've got lots of those action cards running around).

WITH card counting, you might know that the remaining cards in your deck are dense with actions, so maybe you shouldn't play the Smithy.   The most extreme case would be something like, the next three cards in your deck are certain to be Village, Smithy, Laboratory.

But, what happens in practice is that that kind of clump rarely happens.

Okay, something that extreme rarely happens. But there are a lot of decks where it happens decently often. Maybe a quarter of the games I get smithy, I don't (or shouldn't) play it at at least one point? Of course, this is one of those statistics that's made up on the spot - gut feel and intuitive rather than calculative memory.

And if the thing you are considering is whether to draw Witch/Copper/Copper dead, then, yes the correct play is not to play the Smithy, but the real focus should be, why are you buying Smithy in a game where it is competing with such a powerful terminal?

It's a problem that will mostly come up in engine decks that somehow sputter when they shouldn't, and sometimes it is tricky to decide.

Yeah, you actually have both smithy and witch a LOT of the time. And engine decks always have a chance to sputter now and then. And if you only go for engines when this chance is really low, you probably aren't doing so often enough.

Generally, you are giving good advice here. It's only that I would say it isn't such a rare thing as you are making it out to be.

[Morgrim7]

In other words:

Want some advice on Dominion? It depends.

[popsofctown]

WW, are you saying that Smithy improves Witch bot?  I'm skeptical of that.  By that I mean, I would be skeptical of that if anyone but you said it.

[WanderingWinder]

WW, are you saying that Smithy improves Witch bot?  I'm skeptical of that.  By that I mean, I would be skeptical of that if anyone but you said it.

Well, "Smithy improves witch bot" is almost trivially true, but perhaps not significantly. But I'm not actually saying that. What I'm saying is that you aren't usually playing big money anyway, and in the engine you should be playing, you want both.

[andwilk]

The proper way to use Smithy.

The proper way to use Scout:


Don't buy it.

[LastFootnote]

In other words:

Want some advice on Dominion? It depends.

[popsofctown]

WW, are you saying that Smithy improves Witch bot?  I'm skeptical of that.  By that I mean, I would be skeptical of that if anyone but you said it.

Well, "Smithy improves witch bot" is almost trivially true, but perhaps not significantly. But I'm not actually saying that. What I'm saying is that you aren't usually playing big money anyway, and in the engine you should be playing, you want both.

Ok, yeah, I can definitely roll with Smithy and Witch working together in an engine.  I am a bit confused by Smithy improving Witch bot though.  Does a Smithy opening actually beat a Silver/Silver opening on a Witch board?  I would think it doesn't, because the cycling is pretty minor, the improved odds of buying a Witch 3/4 is pretty minor, and the odds of Witch colliding with Smithy later on is pretty significant.
But maybe it does.


I don't know if you meant "it's trivially true" as in, "pops is a dumbtard that isn't opening Smithy on BM Witch boards like everyone other 15+ player" or, "technically you buy Smithy as your third terminal when the curses run out so you can improve the bot".

[WanderingWinder]

WW, are you saying that Smithy improves Witch bot?  I'm skeptical of that.  By that I mean, I would be skeptical of that if anyone but you said it.

Well, "Smithy improves witch bot" is almost trivially true, but perhaps not significantly. But I'm not actually saying that. What I'm saying is that you aren't usually playing big money anyway, and in the engine you should be playing, you want both.

Ok, yeah, I can definitely roll with Smithy and Witch working together in an engine.  I am a bit confused by Smithy improving Witch bot though.  Does a Smithy opening actually beat a Silver/Silver opening on a Witch board?  I would think it doesn't, because the cycling is pretty minor, the improved odds of buying a Witch 3/4 is pretty minor, and the odds of Witch colliding with Smithy later on is pretty significant.
But maybe it does.


I don't know if you meant "it's trivially true" as in, "pops is a dumbtard that isn't opening Smithy on BM Witch boards like everyone other 15+ player" or, "technically you buy Smithy as your third terminal when the curses run out so you can improve the bot".

I didn't necessarily mean opening - which may be leading to the confusion. That there is some moment ever in at least some games where when playing BM-witch that it would be beneficial to be able to get a smithy is what I'm saying is trivial. Opening smithy, would, I assume, be counterproductive.

[ftl]

"technically you buy Smithy as your third terminal when the curses run out so you can improve the bot".

It's that one.

[popsofctown]

WW, are you saying that Smithy improves Witch bot?  I'm skeptical of that.  By that I mean, I would be skeptical of that if anyone but you said it.

Well, "Smithy improves witch bot" is almost trivially true, but perhaps not significantly. But I'm not actually saying that. What I'm saying is that you aren't usually playing big money anyway, and in the engine you should be playing, you want both.

Ok, yeah, I can definitely roll with Smithy and Witch working together in an engine.  I am a bit confused by Smithy improving Witch bot though.  Does a Smithy opening actually beat a Silver/Silver opening on a Witch board?  I would think it doesn't, because the cycling is pretty minor, the improved odds of buying a Witch 3/4 is pretty minor, and the odds of Witch colliding with Smithy later on is pretty significant.
But maybe it does.


I don't know if you meant "it's trivially true" as in, "pops is a dumbtard that isn't opening Smithy on BM Witch boards like everyone other 15+ player" or, "technically you buy Smithy as your third terminal when the curses run out so you can improve the bot".

I didn't necessarily mean opening - which may be leading to the confusion. That there is some moment ever in at least some games where when playing BM-witch that it would be beneficial to be able to get a smithy is what I'm saying is trivial. Opening smithy, would, I assume, be counterproductive.

Ok, so we don't really disagree that much after all. 

[Jacob marley]

I went through a period where I was almost always unwilling to play the Smithy and risk dead draw.  Then I began asking myself when the situation comes up:  How badly do I need in improve my buying power this turn?  And, by extension, Is losing the actions to a dead draw compensated by the chance to draw more treasure?

An example of this:  Lets suppose that I am behind by a province and have 7 coin in hand with a smithy.  All players are actively greening.  In this case, playing the Smithy is a no-brainer.  Even if I draw several dead actions, as long as I get even one copper it is worth it, so I'll take the risk.

Conversely, if I have 2 coin to spend without having played the Smithy, then I will not do so since I am unlikely to get a useful amount of treasure and any dead actions unacceptably weaken my next hand.

Theses are somewhat extreme cases, but demonstrate the thought process I go through.

All this can be summed up as follows:  It Depends

[dondon151]

Easier answer is to count cards...

[Morgrim7]

In other words:

Want some advice on Dominion? It depends.

Useless? Are you saying any Dominion advice doesn't largely depend on the kingdom?

[ftl]

No. Basically all dominion advice does depend on the Kingdom.


Which is why "It depends on the kingdom" in response to a question is a useless statement; it doesn't actually help because it's trivially true for every single dominion question asked ever.

[Robz888]

There are plenty of times you will consciously decide not to play a Smithy or Smithy equivalent. Maybe you already have enough coin in hand. Maybe you don't want to trigger a reshuffle. Maybe you have 7 cards in your deck and you know 4 of them are Actions.

[eHalcyon]

it doesn't actually help because it's trivially true for every single dominion question asked ever.

Some Dominion questions are straight-forward with always true answers.  In other words, it depends on the question.

[GendoIkari]

No. Basically all dominion advice does depend on the Kingdom.


Which is why "It depends on the kingdom" in response to a question is a useless statement; it doesn't actually help because it's trivially true for every single dominion question asked ever.

Edge case:

"On a Witch board, if you open 5/2, is it better to open Witch/Nothing, or Curse/Curse?"

That question does not depend on the Kingdom.

[TWoos]

No. Basically all dominion advice does depend on the Kingdom.

Edge case:

"On a Witch board, if you open 5/2, is it better to open Witch/Nothing, or Curse/Curse?"

That question does not depend on the Kingdom.

Of course it does.  You said, 'On a Witch board'.  That's a specific kind of kingdom on which your question depends.

[Awaclus]

No. Basically all dominion advice does depend on the Kingdom.


Which is why "It depends on the kingdom" in response to a question is a useless statement; it doesn't actually help because it's trivially true for every single dominion question asked ever.

Edge case:

"On a Witch board, if you open 5/2, is it better to open Witch/Nothing, or Curse/Curse?"

That question does not depend on the Kingdom.

It could depend on the kingdom if there's Gardens and the one Curse instead of Nothing is the relevant card.