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[pinkymadigan]

http://www.999games.nl/spel/Dominion%3A+De+Gilden


"The Butcher is the personification of this expansion. You will receive not only coins, but you can also destroy a card and pay a number of coins a bgetere card back packs."

Pardon the Google translation. Also, credit goes to hansbro at BGG for the find:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/928287/ponderings-about-the-guilds/page/4

[Schneau]

It sort of sounds like Guilds might be a card type, based on the translation of the "Tactical Play Tips".

[ipofanes]

"bgetere" is a typo of "betere" (better).
"terugpakken" is, I think, "to return" rather than "back pack" 

[RTT]

to get a better card in return would make the most sense

[GendoIkari]

"If your tactics based on maps from Guilds, then try to make sure that you always have some coins in stock."

So is Maps a card that needs a lot of coin tokens?

[pinkymadigan]

"If your tactics based on maps from Guilds, then try to make sure that you always have some coins in stock."

So is Maps a card that needs a lot of coin tokens?

I think 'maps' is supposed to be 'cards'.

[ipofanes]

Indeed. "Kaarten" would be "cards" here, not "maps". Way to go, Google Translate!

[Kirian]

"If many plague maps in the game, try to go in the hunt for those cards or sufficient defense to not buy tickets at the beginning of the game on an unbridgeable gap to come."

Google translate, causing linguists' heads to explode since 1998 (when it was Altavista Babelfish).

[pinkymadigan]

"If many plague maps in the game, try to go in the hunt for those cards or sufficient defense to not buy tickets at the beginning of the game on an unbridgeable gap to come."

Google translate, causing linguists' heads to explode since 1998 (when it was Altavista Babelfish).

My best guess was:
"If there are a lot of cursing cards in the game, try to buy them, or defensive cards so as to not take curses at the beginning of the game so that the curse gap does not become too large."

I think it's just general Dominion advice, not specific to Guilds. The real info nugget is the Butcher sentence.

[werothegreat]

I wonder how Donald X feels whenever a spoiler happens.  Maybe he plans all of them as a great big tease?

[pinkymadigan]

I wonder how Donald X feels whenever a spoiler happens.  Maybe he plans all of them as a great big tease?

Always got the impression he didn't give a fig.

[Brando Commando]

I wonder how Donald X feels whenever a spoiler happens.  Maybe he plans all of them as a great big tease?

If this is what happens, I'm sure he has a big laugh.

[LastFootnote]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

[Squidd]

Really? You would make the trashing mandatory and the gaining optional?

[LastFootnote]

Really? You would make the trashing mandatory and the gaining optional?

It's a butcher, so yes. 

Seriously though, I think that makes it more powerful.

[eHalcyon]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

I would change it like this.

[LastFootnote]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

I would change it like this.

That's a pretty harsh nerf.

[eHalcyon]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

I would change it like this.

That's a pretty harsh nerf.

I think it makes it interesting, since Dominion still lacks a self-Swindle.   I guess the trashing could be made optional to bump it back up slightly, though it would still be worse than your version!

[werothegreat]

So if the craptastical spoiled art is the Baker, and Rio Grande is showing candles... then Donald X really went there.  I really hope there's a Tub card.

[eHalcyon]

So if the craptastical spoiled art is the Baker, and Rio Grande is showing candles... then Donald X really went there.  I really hope there's a Tub card.

Tub
$6 - Action
Set this card aside.  If you do, you may set aside another card from your hand.  If you have set aside at least one copy each of Butcher, Baker and Candlestick-Maker, you immediately win the game.
---
In games using this, add Butcher, Baker and Candlestick-Maker to the supply.

[LastFootnote]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

I would change it like this.

That's a pretty harsh nerf.

I think it makes it interesting, since Dominion still lacks a self-Swindle.   I guess the trashing could be made optional to bump it back up slightly, though it would still be worse than your version!

Alternatively, you could keep the self swindle by making the gaining optional, but not contingent on spending at least one coin token.

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend any number of coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

That wording is probably too subtle, but it allows the self-swindler effect. This makes it really easy to run out the Provinces, which is why I didn't use this wording in the first place.

[math]

Well, Salvager and Remodel also make it easy to run out the provinces.  I don't think this is a problem on a terminal card.

Also, the way you wrote it, it still has the mandatory gaining.  You would need to word it like this:

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend any number of coin tokens. If you do, you may gain a card costing up to $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

[ktartandude]

So with no extra actions this is basically Remodel BUT if you forgo the gaining from turn to turn then it can become a Super-Remodel. In an engine with plenty of actions you could stack four of these to turn a Copper into a Province. Also, KC-Butcher turns an Estate into a Province just by itself.

It will be interesting to see how other cards from the set which also give out physical coins will interact with this. There must surely be more than one coin-giver in the set (I'm guessing 3, since there are 3 VP chip cards in Prosperity, 3 Looters in Dark Ages) so it's reasonable to assume that you can earn them with 1 card and use them with another.

Actually, the more I look at this concept for this card, the more appealing the whole mechanic is becoming to me.

[Awaclus]

Well, Salvager and Remodel also make it easy to run out the provinces.  I don't think this is a problem on a terminal card.

Also, the way you wrote it, it still has the mandatory gaining.  You would need to word it like this:

The gaining is mandatory only if you choose to spend any number of coin tokens. It would self-swindle if you say "I choose to spend zero tokens" and it wouldn't if you say "I don't spend any tokens".

[Squidd]

So with no extra actions this is basically Remodel BUT if you forgo the gaining from turn to turn then it can become a Super-Remodel. In an engine with plenty of actions you could stack four of these to turn a Copper into a Province. Also, KC-Butcher turns an Estate into a Province just by itself.

Ah, but that's where the mandatory trash comes in. KC-Butcher will need to trash two other things before that Estate.

[clb]

If I have nothing in my hand to trash, I can try to trash it and then spend coins to gain a card (Village, Butcher, KC-Butcher, trashing one card, spending my 8 tokens, and gaining a Province). Of course, that will depend on the exact wording and any "if you do"s.

[LastFootnote]

If I have nothing in my hand to trash, I can try to trash it and then spend coins to gain a card

What? No, you can't. If you play a Remodel and have nothing in hand to trash, you don't gain a card costing up to $2. You gain nothing.

[Stealth Tomato]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to exactly $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

I would change it like this.

That's a pretty harsh nerf.

Does this make it reasonable again?

The fact that it picks up 2 coin tokens per use makes the requirement okay, IMO. You can use it to pick up 2 coin tokens (and alter the makeup of your deck, if you wish), or pick up one coin token and trash a Copper, or use as a Remodel/Expand variant in exchange for any number of coin tokens.

[clb]

If I have nothing in my hand to trash, I can try to trash it and then spend coins to gain a card

What? No, you can't. If you play a Remodel and have nothing in hand to trash, you don't gain a card costing up to $2. You gain nothing.

It all depends on how it is worded, right? Forager let's you use the virtual coin regardless of having a card to trash. Feast let's you gain a second 5 when throned despite not being around to trash again. The point is simply that, depending on how Butcher is worded, you may be able to spend coins to gain a card without trashing. (The card is not even released, but I am edge-casing).
For example.
Trash a card.
You may spend Tokens to gain a card costing up to $1 more than the card you trashed per Token.

If I have no cards to trash, I would think that I could gain a card costing up to X Tokens more than 0. It is sort of like the butcher has a built-in Salvager, but in my mind, I can start at 0.

I may be flat out wrong. And the point may be moot. Either way, it's speculation.

[LastFootnote]

So perhaps something like…

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 coin tokens. Trash a card from your hand. You may spend 1 or more coin tokens. If you do, gain a card costing up to exactly $1 more per token spent than the trashed card.

I would change it like this.

That's a pretty harsh nerf.

Does this make it reasonable again?

The fact that it picks up 2 coin tokens per use makes the requirement okay, IMO. You can use it to pick up 2 coin tokens (and alter the makeup of your deck, if you wish), or pick up one coin token and trash a Copper, or use as a Remodel/Expand variant in exchange for any number of coin tokens.

I don't think that version's powerful enough to cost $5. Assuming Butcher gets you 2 coin tokens instead of 1, it has to cost $5. Otherwise it's strictly better than Remodel.

EDIT: Actually, scratch that. If you must gain a card costing exactly $X more, it's not strictly better than Remodel. However, it's extremely rare that you Remodel a card into a card costing less, so it's almost strictly better.