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[ahyangyi]

Tips for the "Dominion" Game
"The Village is the best card to collect in Dominion because it gives you plus 1 card and plus 2 action..."

"...however, the card you play may allow you to play another turn, such as in the case with the Village, where you can play two additional turns..."
Taking additional turns, well, that's powerful! But now which advice should I take, should I piledrive Villages or Bureaucrats?

So villages are strictly stronger than Outposts!

[Hks]

"Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn, because you have a high chance of drawing your Estates card with it."

[HiveMindEmulator]

"Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn, because you have a high chance of drawing your Estates card with it."

This I think is actually correct. If there is nearly any way of trashing Estates, it's better to open with that. It says "often", not "never". Usually you're only opening Smithy if you're going something like Smithy Big Money.

[WanderingWinder]

"Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn, because you have a high chance of drawing your Estates card with it."

This I think is actually correct. If there is nearly any way of trashing Estates, it's better to open with that. It says "often", not "never". Usually you're only opening Smithy if you're going something like Smithy Big Money.

I disagree. First of all, it's not often an either-or choice - how many $4 trashers are out there? Moreover, if the trashing is bad, or not there, then you are very often opening something like smithy-silver if you want to build an engine. Even with the trashing, trasher-smithy is not too bad of an opening, though I guess more often you want some coin-producer, whether an action or a silver.

But more, the reasoning there is terrible. I mean, "Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn" is true, though you can substitute virtually any card for smithy there and be correct. But because you have a high chance of drawing your estates? Who cares! And actually, you are drawing those estates anyway...

[GendoIkari]

"Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn, because you have a high chance of drawing your Estates card with it."

This I think is actually correct. If there is nearly any way of trashing Estates, it's better to open with that. It says "often", not "never". Usually you're only opening Smithy if you're going something like Smithy Big Money.

I disagree. First of all, it's not often an either-or choice - how many $4 trashers are out there? Moreover, if the trashing is bad, or not there, then you are very often opening something like smithy-silver if you want to build an engine. Even with the trashing, trasher-smithy is not too bad of an opening, though I guess more often you want some coin-producer, whether an action or a silver.

But more, the reasoning there is terrible. I mean, "Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn" is true, though you can substitute virtually any card for smithy there and be correct. But because you have a high chance of drawing your estates? Who cares! And actually, you are drawing those estates anyway...

It might be worth noting that playing Smithy on turn 3 or 4 will cause your turn 4 purchase to miss the reshuffle whereas it wouldn't have otherwise...

[HiveMindEmulator]

"Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn, because you have a high chance of drawing your Estates card with it."

This I think is actually correct. If there is nearly any way of trashing Estates, it's better to open with that. It says "often", not "never". Usually you're only opening Smithy if you're going something like Smithy Big Money.

I disagree. First of all, it's not often an either-or choice - how many $4 trashers are out there? Moreover, if the trashing is bad, or not there, then you are very often opening something like smithy-silver if you want to build an engine. Even with the trashing, trasher-smithy is not too bad of an opening, though I guess more often you want some coin-producer, whether an action or a silver.

But more, the reasoning there is terrible. I mean, "Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn" is true, though you can substitute virtually any card for smithy there and be correct. But because you have a high chance of drawing your estates? Who cares! And actually, you are drawing those estates anyway...

I'm fairly confident Smithy+trasher is usually a bad opening. What is your Smithy going to draw? Coppers, Estates and your trasher, dead. It's a little cycling which is nice, but probably worse than Navigator, which no one is ever thrilled to open. Maybe you want to do it if you want to have the Smithy for later, but you're probably usually better off getting something which gives economy to go with your trasher. Smithy openings are nearly always going to be Smithy+Silver/FG/Fishing. Smithy+Silver into engine can work for non-trashing engines, or things with something like Forge where you can mass trash later. But this is not super common. Generally I think Smithy is a pretty weak opening, not because it draws Estates you wouldn't otherwise draw, but because playing Smithy to draw Coppers and Estates is not one of the more useful things you can do in the early game. I guess I just interpreted the statement differently than you did.

[WanderingWinder]

"Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn, because you have a high chance of drawing your Estates card with it."

This I think is actually correct. If there is nearly any way of trashing Estates, it's better to open with that. It says "often", not "never". Usually you're only opening Smithy if you're going something like Smithy Big Money.

I disagree. First of all, it's not often an either-or choice - how many $4 trashers are out there? Moreover, if the trashing is bad, or not there, then you are very often opening something like smithy-silver if you want to build an engine. Even with the trashing, trasher-smithy is not too bad of an opening, though I guess more often you want some coin-producer, whether an action or a silver.

But more, the reasoning there is terrible. I mean, "Smithy is often not your best choice on the first turn" is true, though you can substitute virtually any card for smithy there and be correct. But because you have a high chance of drawing your estates? Who cares! And actually, you are drawing those estates anyway...

I'm fairly confident Smithy+trasher is usually a bad opening. What is your Smithy going to draw? Coppers, Estates and your trasher, dead. It's a little cycling which is nice, but probably worse than Navigator, which no one is ever thrilled to open. Maybe you want to do it if you want to have the Smithy for later, but you're probably usually better off getting something which gives economy to go with your trasher.

I don't disagree.

Smithy openings are nearly always going to be Smithy+Silver/FG/Fishing. Smithy+Silver into engine can work for non-trashing engines, or things with something like Forge where you can mass trash later.

Still with you here.

But this is not super common. Generally I think Smithy is a pretty weak opening, not because it draws Estates you wouldn't otherwise draw, but because playing Smithy to draw Coppers and Estates is not one of the more useful things you can do in the early game. I guess I just interpreted the statement differently than you did.

Okay, I disagree with you here. you want the smithy for later. A lot. And drawing those coppers estates, and usually the silver, is not super awesome amazing times, but what on turn 3-4 are you doing that is? I mean, sometimes there is something (chapel, ambassador, the rare CC-like shenanigans), but most often, not really.

[GendoIkari]

But this is not super common. Generally I think Smithy is a pretty weak opening, not because it draws Estates you wouldn't otherwise draw, but because playing Smithy to draw Coppers and Estates is not one of the more useful things you can do in the early game. I guess I just interpreted the statement differently than you did.

Okay, I disagree with you here. you want the smithy for later. A lot. And drawing those coppers estates, and usually the silver, is not super awesome amazing times, but what on turn 3-4 are you doing that is? I mean, sometimes there is something (chapel, ambassador, the rare CC-like shenanigans), but most often, not really.

Also, drawing those Estates now means you aren't drawing them next turn. It seems like a common error to play something that draws cards, sees that it just drew you complete crap, and then be upset about it. You just saved your next turn.

[AdamH]

We're making fun of it because it's only edge-cases where you would want to not play a Smithy for fear of drawing cards dead that would just be dead next turn if you hadn't played Smithy. Why would you want Estates in your hand next turn? The only thing I can think of is if you also had multiple Crossroads that could end up drawing multiple cards off each Estate you started with. This reasoning does not make Smithy a bad opener, since you aren't going to have that engine in place after just one shuffle.

You can talk about reshuffles all you want and you have some ground to stand on. You can talk about optimizing engine building by finding a better opener and you still have some ground to stand on. Good times. Most of the base set card "how to"s pertain only to the base set anyways, where Big Money is usually dominant, and in BM+Smithy, I think we've conclusively shown that Smithy is the correct opening.

The difference between us and eHow is that there you have people giving advice that is not only too generic, but is not a good idea a vast majority of the time and for the wrong reasons (and that give reasons for their advice that don't make much sense to experienced players). Here, you have people who will not even attempt to give such advice, but will rather analyze all of the exceptions to the rules to the point where we don't even know what the rules are.

It always depends on the kingdom, but talking about all of this extremely detail-oriented stuff doesn't do anyone any good if there is no  understanding of the generic case. I don't play Dominion hoping to memorize the way every single combination of two cards interact. I try to understand the generic ways that cards can be good, how well they fit those roles, and then think about specific interactions only when presented with a kingdom that may suggest such an interaction.

Aside from certain combo decks that play very differently from this mold (NV+Bridge, Hermit+Market Square, WS/Gardens, etc.) the only advice that has a huge meaning to me, and almost all of the advice that's made me a better player has been generic in nature.

However misguided their advice may be, maybe there's something we can learn from it?

[shMerker]

Also, drawing those Estates now means you aren't drawing them next turn. It seems like a common error to play something that draws cards, sees that it just drew you complete crap, and then be upset about it. You just saved your next turn.

This is why Scout is so underrated.

[HiveMindEmulator]

But this is not super common. Generally I think Smithy is a pretty weak opening, not because it draws Estates you wouldn't otherwise draw, but because playing Smithy to draw Coppers and Estates is not one of the more useful things you can do in the early game. I guess I just interpreted the statement differently than you did.

Okay, I disagree with you here. you want the smithy for later. A lot. And drawing those coppers estates, and usually the silver, is not super awesome amazing times, but what on turn 3-4 are you doing that is? I mean, sometimes there is something (chapel, ambassador, the rare CC-like shenanigans), but most often, not really.

I still disagree here. I think you generally don't want the Smithy "a lot" as the game goes on. It's useful as an additional draw card, but usually there are better sources of drawing, like almost any of the Smithy variants or Lab variants. And if Smithy is actually the best drawing card AND there is no early game trashing, then it's not looking much like an engine game. Of course there are things like KC and Forge which change this story, but I think Smithy openings, at least for me, are pretty rare (like there's 30 $4-or-less cards I open with more often). It doesn't trash, attack, or gain, and it forces your other card to be Silver, so you can't even have another card doing one of these things.

[WanderingWinder]

But this is not super common. Generally I think Smithy is a pretty weak opening, not because it draws Estates you wouldn't otherwise draw, but because playing Smithy to draw Coppers and Estates is not one of the more useful things you can do in the early game. I guess I just interpreted the statement differently than you did.

Okay, I disagree with you here. you want the smithy for later. A lot. And drawing those coppers estates, and usually the silver, is not super awesome amazing times, but what on turn 3-4 are you doing that is? I mean, sometimes there is something (chapel, ambassador, the rare CC-like shenanigans), but most often, not really.

I still disagree here. I think you generally don't want the Smithy "a lot" as the game goes on. It's useful as an additional draw card, but usually there are better sources of drawing, like almost any of the Smithy variants or Lab variants. And if Smithy is actually the best drawing card AND there is no early game trashing, then it's not looking much like an engine game. Of course there are things like KC and Forge which change this story, but I think Smithy openings, at least for me, are pretty rare (like there's 30 $4-or-less cards I open with more often). It doesn't trash, attack, or gain, and it forces your other card to be Silver, so you can't even have another card doing one of these things.

The problem with "any smithy variant is better" is that they almost all cost $5, so it's a false dichotomy. Not to mention that with most of them, smithy is almost as good. I also reject the notion that smithy being the best draw means you probably aren't going engine, even without decent trashing.