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Author Topic: Charter - A Treasure-Attack  (Read 10088 times)

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soulnet

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2013, 09:53:31 am »
+1

I see no reason to limit it to players with 4 or more cards in hand... That seems to only make sense on cards that make you discard. Why should you be immune to this attack just because you were militiad earlier?

I agree. You can always choose to take the Copper to avoid being pinned, like against Torturer.
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2013, 06:58:38 pm »
0

What $ is it worth?

It's still 2$, sorry i forgot.

So you guys think it would be okay like this?

Charter
5$, Treasure - Attack
2$
Each other player may discard a Copper. If he does not, he gains a Copper.


Well, it sure is more simple and has a nice symmetry. I like the thought of keeping it like that. On first sight it seemed too strong to me, being also treasure-cutpurse for only one more. But it's an optional Cutpurse, so anybody can choose the option hurting less.

Edit: Isn't it stronger than Torturer, though? I mean, it doesn't cost an action. Of course, Curses are worse than Coppers, but you can get more of them and discarding a Copper hurts about as much as Torturers discard clause (considering Cutpurse and Militia cost the same). Or do you think 2$ is that much worse than +3Cards?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 07:03:38 pm by Asper »
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soulnet

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2013, 07:35:20 pm »
+1

It seems pretty strong, although is hard too say if it is TOO strong. There are several tweaks that can be done, like allowing to discard any Treasure instead of just Copper (though I would do this right away, because it does not seem to change the power level in a significant manner), or capping in some way the number of times per turn you can attack with it.

The thing about Torturer is: $2 maybe comparable with +3 Cards in the vacuum, but neither attack is really strong if you attack only once (and the penalty of gaining Copper dilutes on time because it is less important as the game goes on, the Curse at least is -1 VP at any moment you choose to gain it). To attack a lot, you need an engine. And if the point is attacking a lot, you need draw better than more money (because the payout, at least initially, is mostly the attack itself). Torturer is terminal, but it gives you the draw. Charter does not help you at all to make an engine that attacks a lot. Spamming enough Charters and Terminal draw to be able to attack twice per turn is probably really slow and a simple terminal draw + BM will outplay it easily.
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mail-mi

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2013, 07:39:01 pm »
+1

You could also gain copper to hand so that they can discard that copper to the next play. And it brings up the beggar question: do I do this for the $1 now, or lose $1 but don't gain a copper?
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2013, 08:24:02 pm »
0

You could also gain copper to hand so that they can discard that copper to the next play. And it brings up the beggar question: do I do this for the $1 now, or lose $1 but don't gain a copper?

I don't know... If i did that, it arguably would lose the attack type. Which might be good, as there never was a Treasure - Attack up to now, but it also might be bad, as there never was a Treasure - Attack up to now ;)
Not that i didn't think about it. It just sounds too helpful to me. Imagine playing Charter and having somebody shout "Ah! Eight!". I'd never play it again. I mean, people get half the money you get. Nah, that's an entirely different card, probably something i'd put on a 3$ Action...

Soup Kitchen
3$ Action
+ 3$
Each other player gains a Copper to his hand.


Edit: That's actually much harder to balance than i thought. Still, it's another card.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 08:28:57 pm by Asper »
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soulnet

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2013, 08:42:45 pm »
+1

Soup Kitchen
3$ Action
+ 3$
Each other player gains a Copper to his hand.


That seems too good, especially for something you can buy and play early on where the extra Copper will really hurt the opponents.
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2013, 08:54:18 pm »
0

You sure? I mean an extra 1$ to spend is also best at the start of the game. Why buy Oasis when you can have Scout?

Edit: You can still make it a 4$, then. Or drop one 1$. I just feel getting 2$ and giving the opponents 1$ (and a junk card) is... really bad.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 08:56:38 pm by Asper »
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Awaclus

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2013, 09:05:59 pm »
+1

What about

Charter
$5 Treasure - Attack
+$2
Each other discards a Copper or reveals a hand with no Copper. If a player reveals his hand this way, he gains a Copper in his hand.

Is it too powerful? I don't think it is. Though it's now basically a discard attack instead of a junker, but that's an irrelevant minor detail.  :P
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2013, 09:22:23 pm »
0

What about

Charter
$5 Treasure - Attack
+$2
Each other discards a Copper or reveals a hand with no Copper. If a player reveals his hand this way, he gains a Copper in his hand.

Is it too powerful? I don't think it is. Though it's now basically a discard attack instead of a junker, but that's an irrelevant minor detail.  :P

I don't know, but i feel that's a little swingy. Pete has Silver, Silver, Gold, Province, Province. Mary has Copper, Copper, Gold, Gold, Curse. I play Charter once. Sucks to be you, Mary.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 09:24:57 pm by Asper »
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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2013, 11:27:44 pm »
+1

What about

Charter
$5 Treasure - Attack
+$2
Each other discards a Copper or reveals a hand with no Copper. If a player reveals his hand this way, he gains a Copper in his hand.

Is it too powerful? I don't think it is. Though it's now basically a discard attack instead of a junker, but that's an irrelevant minor detail.  :P

I don't know, but i feel that's a little swingy. Pete has Silver, Silver, Gold, Province, Province. Mary has Copper, Copper, Gold, Gold, Curse. I play Charter once. Sucks to be you, Mary.

That's the same thing with cutpurse.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2013, 03:59:01 am »
+1

What about

Charter
$5 Treasure - Attack
+$2
Each other discards a Copper or reveals a hand with no Copper. If a player reveals his hand this way, he gains a Copper in his hand.

Is it too powerful? I don't think it is. Though it's now basically a discard attack instead of a junker, but that's an irrelevant minor detail.  :P

I don't know, but i feel that's a little swingy. Pete has Silver, Silver, Gold, Province, Province. Mary has Copper, Copper, Gold, Gold, Curse. I play Charter once. Sucks to be you, Mary.

That's the same thing with cutpurse.

Not quite, because the copper giver would boost Pete from $7 to $8.





Back to the treasure attack... the problem is that it is non-terminal.  Non-terminal attacks have to be weak enough that they won't hurt too much when spammed.  That may mean that it doesn't stack (like Urchin) or simply that subsequent plays will be less rewarding (like Spy, once it has actually found a dead card to keep on top of opponent's decks).

Copper junking is powerful.  Making a non-terminal restrictionless copper junker seems too powerful.

I posited a Copper junking attack in this thread, though I only got one response.  It was a powerful junker (gives 2 Coppers) but it is actually weaker early game because it helps opponents trash.



Giving opponents Copper in hand is also something I've thought about.  Even though you would get a +$1 bonus in that hand, it still hurts most of the time to have that extra junk in your deck!  The ability to hand out Coppers to opponents, even going to their hands, is certainly worthy of "attack card" status.
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2013, 09:25:11 am »
0

I know there is a way to get this card working. I just have to find it...

Cheap solution: "If this is the first time" wording.
Other solution:

Charter
5$ Treasure - Attack
2$
When you play this, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand gains a Copper. If he does, he may discard a card.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2013, 09:43:00 am »
+1

Interestingly, Cultist is a fairly powerful, fairly spammable attack by fitting in somewhere between nonterminal and terminal.
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2013, 06:34:10 pm »
0

Earlier, we talked about whether this version might be too strong for 5$:

Charter
$5, Treasure - Attack
2$
When you play this, each other player may discard a Copper. If he does not, he gains a Copper.

Could i make it a 6$ and add a little bonus to balance it, or do you think it's still okay just for 6$? How about this:

Charter
$6, Treasure - Attack
2$, + 1 Buy
When you play this, each other player may discard a Copper. If he does not, he gains a Copper.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2013, 07:14:31 pm »
+1

I still think they are both too powerful.  They are Silvers, so it doesn't hurt to overload on them.  When you have a lot of them, you are constantly copper junking or cutpursing your opponents multiple times every turn.
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2013, 09:40:28 am »
0

Hm... If it doesn't give out Coppers, i have no clue if there's an attack i'd like to be on Charter. Militia just seems a bit boring to me...

Well, maybe i can make Soup Kitchen work, then.

Soup Kitchen
4$, Action - Attack
+ 2$
Each other player gains a Copper and puts it into his hand. If he does both, he discards a card.
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Asper

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Re: Charter - A Treasure-Attack
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 02:40:13 pm »
0

Another try, Charter as a Looter:

Charter
5$, Treasure - Attack - Looter
2$
When you play this, each other player may discard a Ruins. If he does not, he gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand.


Differences:
1. Ruins are much more rare than Coppers, and scale better with different numbers of players.
2. Gaining a ruins to hand is worse than gaining a Copper to hand, so losing one/gaining one in hand usually won't be that swingy. You even can decide which hits you less bad.
3. Only half of the Charters will actually hit, making it less spammable.
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