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[werothegreat]

I'm just going to come out and say it.  At this point, bugs and all, I actually prefer Goko.  Last night, I played a couple games on Iso with AxeKnight, and I was struck by how much I really did prefer playing on Goko.  On Iso, everything is cramped to one side, all the icons are miniscule.  I kept missing that certain cards were in the kingdom - I didn't realize that Scrying Pool was in one until after I had trashed my Potion.  I kept misclicking things - true, I had done this when first starting Goko, but...  See, some players have lamented that on Goko you have to move your mouse around *so* much more to click everything, but honestly I prefer the space.  It doesn't take *that* much more effort to move around the screen.  But when everything is cramped to one side, it not only looks inferior, but kind of plays less well.

Now, this is no disrespect to dougz - I had some awesome times on iso when I first found online Dominion, but at this juncture I just think Goko is a better implementation.

This is not meant to incite anyone - I was myself kind of surprised at my own realization.

And this is not to say that Goko doesn't still have problems to fix - hoo boy it does - but as a platform, I prefer it over iso.

[GendoIkari]

The only disagreement I'd make is that when playing with 11 Kingdom cards, one of the piles isn't even visible on the screen at all unless you go to the next page. Surely this has a much bigger issue with not noticing certain cards are in the Kingdom than Iso has.

[werothegreat]

The only disagreement I'd make is that when playing with 11 Kingdom cards, one of the piles isn't even visible on the screen at all unless you go to the next page. Surely this has a much bigger issue with not noticing certain cards are in the Kingdom than Iso has.

Honestly, the 2nd page button almost immediately pops out to me, so I don't really have an issue with this either.

[SirPeebles]

Between Young Witch, Tournament, Death Cart, Cultist, Marauder, Bandit Camp, and Pillage, it feels like there's usually a second page.  At least, there is often enough that my default is to expect one.  It's not like it's something that only pops up once every hundred games.  Now if I only I could consistently notice Colonies before turn 5.

[LastFootnote]

Wow, yet another Goko vs. Isotropic debate. This totally needed a new thread.

[Stealth Tomato]

The only disagreement I'd make is that when playing with 11 Kingdom cards, one of the piles isn't even visible on the screen at all unless you go to the next page. Surely this has a much bigger issue with not noticing certain cards are in the Kingdom than Iso has.

Honestly, the 2nd page button almost immediately pops out to me, so I don't really have an issue with this either.

The bigger problem is checking pile-outs with the second page--it's easy to forget a second-page card is piled out, or not notice it's getting close because it would take effort to check.

[Watno]

2nd page is only a problem with Young Witch and Looters, non supply piles are ok on another page imo.

[Awaclus]

See, some players have lamented that on Goko you have to move your mouse around *so* much more to click everything, but honestly I prefer the space.

And it actually moving your mouse is faster than stopping your mouse. The bigger the buttons, the less you have to worry about slowing down or stopping and thus, the faster using the interface will be.

[GendoIkari]

2nd page is only a problem with Young Witch and Looters, non supply piles are ok on another page imo.

Agreed. It's the supply issues that are a problem for me. And I'd rank it pretty high on my reasons to dislike Goko. To build an interface that specifically only fits an exact number of cards at once, while they knew ahead of time that this wouldn't work for all expansions, is a problem for me.

[dondon151]

I kept missing that certain cards were in the kingdom - I didn't realize that Scrying Pool was in one until after I had trashed my Potion.

Are you sure that this is a UI problem, and not your problem?

[Watno]

It's a problem he has with the UI.

[dondon151]

Obviously UI compatibility is subjective, but there must be a point where the problem is not that the UI is insufficient, but that the user is negligent. Isotropic exhaustively displays all information available to the player between the default gameplay screen and the information screen. I do not understand how being unable to count 10 (or 11) kingdom cards on the screen in front of you, all of which are in plain view, is a UI problem instead of a user problem.

Analogy: I don't get a reprieve on turning in homework late because I didn't see the due date - I can't blame anyone but myself for that one.

[werothegreat]

Obviously UI compatibility is subjective, but there must be a point where the problem is not that the UI is insufficient, but that the user is negligent. Analogy: I don't get a reprieve on turning in homework late because I didn't see the due date - I can't blame anyone but myself for that one.

But did your teacher print the due date clearly and make sure everyone saw it, or was it mentioned briefly, buried in the syllabus?

[dondon151]

But did your teacher print the due date clearly and make sure everyone saw it, or was it mentioned briefly, buried in the syllabus?

I assume that this rhetorical question is meant to invalidate my point. It doesn't.

First, even if the due date were buried in the syllabus, that is not a legitimate excuse for failing to turn it in on time. I can't think of a single professor at my university who would grant an extension on homework just because you didn't know when it was due and the due date was printed somewhere. The definition of "clearly" is up for contention here, as if the due date were printed in the syllabus, then that is pretty "clearly" printed. After all, the student is expected to read the syllabus. In a class with homework, he is expected to know that there is homework.

Second, Iso displays all 10 or 11 kingdom cards on the default screen. There is no additional effort required to know what cards are in the kingdom. You are only expected to read, and I think that is a fair expectation. I personally still find myself missing a kingdom card every now and then in both Iso and in real life games, especially if I see a combo and don't finish reading the kingdom cards. Is that a UI problem? Does IRL Dominion have poor UI? Or is it just my fault that I either can't or don't read? Should online Dominion implementations read out all cards in the kingdom prior to every match?

EDIT: and yes, what if you don't listen to the cards? Would that also be a UI problem?

[popsofctown]

But then, what if you don't listen.

[Watno]

I think wero can decide for himself which interface he gets along with better.

[dondon151]

That doesn't answer my question. I could write a criticism of Goko complaining about the most trivial things (which may not even be problems at all) and I can expect a wholly different kind of response.

[Watno]

It's a problem he has with the UI.

But I think this did, or what question are you refering to?

[dondon151]

That's dodging the question. Of course everyone responds to the UI in a different way. At what point do UI problems actually become UI problems? That is, how do we know that something is a UI problem and not a user problem?

EDIT: I find it difficult to justify complaining that you sometimes miss a kingdom card using an interface that displays all kingdom cards by default while not complaining about missing a kingdom card using an interface that does not display all kingdom cards by default.

[Watno]

Maybe because you're used to said interface that doesn't show all cards at once, know the circumstance under which a specific card is on the second page, and all cards are represented by large images you're used to, in the middle of your viewing field, instead of tiny image at it's border.

I myself miss cards on the second page of Goko more often than those on Iso, but I don't doubt that this could be different for someone else when he says it is.

[philosophyguy]

One of the goals of a UI should be to make important activities and information as easy to do/see as possible. I get that Goko's interface allows me to flip to the second page and they have an icon showing that there are cards there, and I get that I as the player am ultimately responsible for checking on piles before thinking about whether to end the game.

The issue is that: in the heat of the game, it's easy to forget that. Now, as a UI designer, you can take the approach of saying, "Pay more attention, player." But a good UI should try to eliminate the possibility for overlooking something like that as much as possible.

We (rightly, IMO) complained that it wasn't clear enough in the interface when you were discarding or trashing or playing a new card, and that the "Done" button was ambiguous, and Goko has fortunately made changes with coloring and text descriptions to remove that ambiguity. They could have said, "Pay attention to what your card does, player. This isn't that hard." And to some extent they're right. But the right UI decision is the one that makes that kind of excuse unnecessary.

This is the same thing. Goko isn't wrong to have the supply piles on different pages, and players should pay attention to all of that information on their own. But the current UI is suboptimal because it makes overlooking a pile more likely—inviting a specific type of mistake—that could easily be corrected with a slightly different UI.

For some people, this may not be a huge issue. But for me, at least, it shows a lack of attention to important details about how people actually use the interface and what information they need during the game. I would be much happier with the Goko experience if they fixed this.

[Powerman]

I came to this thread expecting it to be a joke.  I was disappointed when the OP was serious :/

[Stealth Tomato]

But did your teacher print the due date clearly and make sure everyone saw it, or was it mentioned briefly, buried in the syllabus?

I assume that this rhetorical question is meant to invalidate my point. It doesn't.

First, even if the due date were buried in the syllabus, that is not a legitimate excuse for failing to turn it in on time. I can't think of a single professor at my university who would grant an extension on homework just because you didn't know when it was due and the due date was printed somewhere. The definition of "clearly" is up for contention here, as if the due date were printed in the syllabus, then that is pretty "clearly" printed. After all, the student is expected to read the syllabus. In a class with homework, he is expected to know that there is homework.

That's a crappy argument--there is a big difference between making something apparent and memorable, and technically fulfilling your obligation to make the information available. The professor who buries it in the syllabus is doing the latter. When students miss the due date on his homework, he will pontificate about it and be technically right, but his flagellations will be 100% in bad faith.

[ashersky]

Will Goko turn into WoW, where add-ons added HUDs and such (as an example) to make the game play better?

[Morgrim7]

You...how could you!?!