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Author Topic: Easy Puzzles  (Read 808499 times)

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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #525 on: February 10, 2014, 02:09:34 am »
0

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?
KC-Possession-Chapel game. Both players successfully trash down to nothing but KC-Possession-Chapel. It is in neither of their best interest to create a functional deck, and the game draws out forever with no buys.

During your last Possessed turn, I could have you Chapel both your KC and Possession.  That way they are set aside until after you draw during cleanup, so you can't Possess me.  Depending on the board, I'm still not sure how I would finagle a win, however.

Unless the board contains a $2 cantrip or Squire, it's impossible to pick up a sure win. With a $3 cantrip, it may still be a >50% proposition, but attempting the win and then picking up a non-Possession hand would doom you. Otherwise, you're pretty thoroughly stalemated unless the Estate or another $2 pile is very low.

I actually studied this myself before posting that response, because it could have invalidated it.

Thinking more about the $2-cantrip scenario, it's still difficult in most cases. Anything besides Pawn will include risks, because at some point you have KC-Possession-Chapel-2xCopper-X, and if X doesn't draw cards, you can end up without your Possession.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 02:14:39 am by Stealth Tomato »
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Davio

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #526 on: February 10, 2014, 03:31:16 am »
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The main problem is that you can't prohibit your opponent from buying Coppers getting to 6+ cards in his deck eventually, meaning you might miss the Chapel in his hand.

You can get up to Pawn and Squire yourself and trash the Squire for an Ambassador, get another Ambassador, Ambassador one over, maaaaaybe that's the way to go.

1. You can get to KC-Poss-Chap-Amb-Pawn (by trashing a Squire and Chapeling the Coppers)
2. So you can also get to KC-Poss-Chap-Amb-Pawn-Amb and Ambassador the Amb over and Possess in the same turn
The odds of success are good, but still not 100%.

For part 1 and 2, you have to start with KC-Pawn in hand out of 6 cards, which has a very high success rate, but could still go wrong.
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Davio

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #527 on: February 10, 2014, 03:48:15 am »
+2

Okay, here is the problem in full:

1. Possess your opponent 3 times, Chapel away his stuff and buy 2 Coppers
1b. Opponent buys a Copper
2. Do the same thing, but buy a Pawn
2b. Opponent buys another Copper and has 5 cards already
3. KC the Pawn, Chapel the Coppers, buy a Great Hall, bring yourself down to KC-Poss-Ch-Pawn-Great Hall
3b. Opponent buys his 6th card, 3rd Copper
4. Whatever you do, there is a chance your opponent has drawn KC-Poss-Copp-Copp-Copp (no Chapel) so you can't Chapel his stuff anymore, leaving you open for a KC-Poss yourself at which point your opponent can grab the lead

And if your opponent has Chapel-Poss-KC-Copp-Copp you can't use that turn to buy a Great Hall
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 03:52:31 am by Davio »
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Awaclus

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #528 on: February 10, 2014, 04:22:41 am »
+4

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?
You were playing a solitaire game, Possessed yourself and gained something, which results in an infinite loop of replacement effects replacing the "you gain the card" effect with "you gain the card".
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Davio

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #529 on: February 10, 2014, 04:26:15 am »
+2

You could just keep revealing Trader. :)
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SirPeebles

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #530 on: February 10, 2014, 07:40:45 am »
+2

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?
You were playing a solitaire game, Possessed yourself and gained something, which results in an infinite loop of replacement effects replacing the "you gain the card" effect with "you gain the card".

But each step in that infinite loop takes up zero time.  So does it really cause the game to go on forever?
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Awaclus

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #531 on: February 10, 2014, 07:54:56 am »
+1

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?
You were playing a solitaire game, Possessed yourself and gained something, which results in an infinite loop of replacement effects replacing the "you gain the card" effect with "you gain the card".

But each step in that infinite loop takes up zero time.  So does it really cause the game to go on forever?
It's not zero, it's negligible. Any finite number of steps would take up essentially zero time, but an infinite number of steps takes forever. There's no point at which you can declare that the infinite loop is now over.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #532 on: February 10, 2014, 08:18:54 am »
0

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?
You were playing a solitaire game, Possessed yourself and gained something, which results in an infinite loop of replacement effects replacing the "you gain the card" effect with "you gain the card".

But each step in that infinite loop takes up zero time.  So does it really cause the game to go on forever?
It's not zero, it's negligible. Any finite number of steps would take up essentially zero time, but an infinite number of steps takes forever. There's no point at which you can declare that the infinite loop is now over.

It is an ordered sequence of steps.  Formally, the number of steps is named omega, the smallest infinite ordinal.  The net time would be zero.
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AdamH

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #533 on: February 10, 2014, 10:27:23 am »
+1

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?

There are stalemate situations possible with Pirate Ship.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #534 on: February 10, 2014, 01:16:40 pm »
0

Okay, here is the problem in full:

1. Possess your opponent 3 times, Chapel away his stuff and buy 2 Coppers
1b. Opponent buys a Copper
2. Do the same thing, but buy a Pawn
2b. Opponent buys another Copper and has 5 cards already
3. KC the Pawn, Chapel the Coppers, buy a Great Hall, bring yourself down to KC-Poss-Ch-Pawn-Great Hall
3b. Opponent buys his 6th card, 3rd Copper
4. Whatever you do, there is a chance your opponent has drawn KC-Poss-Copp-Copp-Copp (no Chapel) so you can't Chapel his stuff anymore, leaving you open for a KC-Poss yourself at which point your opponent can grab the lead

And if your opponent has Chapel-Poss-KC-Copp-Copp you can't use that turn to buy a Great Hall

I think you're right... which would make it a true stalemate given optimal play, correct?
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Davio

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #535 on: February 10, 2014, 01:38:38 pm »
0

Well, it depends on your definition of optimal play.

In a tournament setting, it could be that both players need a win, not a tie.

But in a regular game, it should be possible to offer a draw. :)
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florrat

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #536 on: February 10, 2014, 02:07:25 pm »
0

Okay, here is the problem in full:

1. Possess your opponent 3 times, Chapel away his stuff and buy 2 Coppers
1b. Opponent buys a Copper
2. Do the same thing, but buy a Pawn
2b. Opponent buys another Copper and has 5 cards already
3. KC the Pawn, Chapel the Coppers, buy a Great Hall, bring yourself down to KC-Poss-Ch-Pawn-Great Hall
3b. Opponent buys his 6th card, 3rd Copper
4. Whatever you do, there is a chance your opponent has drawn KC-Poss-Copp-Copp-Copp (no Chapel) so you can't Chapel his stuff anymore, leaving you open for a KC-Poss yourself at which point your opponent can grab the lead

And if your opponent has Chapel-Poss-KC-Copp-Copp you can't use that turn to buy a Great Hall
It's even worse.
On turn 2, you can have at most 1 Copper in your hand, since you gained at least one of your coppers during a Possession turn.
On turn 3 your deck has 6 cards, so nothing guarantees that you draw you Pawn...Or your King's Court.

However, I'm not convinced that given the right kingdom you cannot do better. If you can get a single Governor, you can play KC-Governor to give your opponent an 8-card hand and then play a single Possession. Then you have 3 additional turns in which your opponent cannot do anything. You cannot trash his complete deck anymore, but it's not so bad if your opponent has a hand of KC-Ch-C during his turn. And there are some fast ways to get economy:
-Poor House
-Peddler (using for example Hamlet for +Buy)
-Trash Squire into something
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ConMan

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #537 on: February 10, 2014, 05:26:49 pm »
0

This game of Dominion went on forever. Why?

No Ruins.  Coppers and Curses were emptied and trashed or permanently set aside.  No one could afford even an Estate.
Great, now you've got me stuck looking for the BGG thread where DXV put the smackdown on the troll who suggested such a game. Now *that's* going to take forever.

Argh, now I am!

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/534706/is-the-following-scenario-a-draw

There is another thread like this too, but a lot of the posts in it were deleted:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/475492/draw-game/page/4
It was the second one I was thinking of, but would've had a lot of trouble finding since the OP deleted all his posts. I was particularly thinking of the "Everyone plays until they stave to death" ruling.
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jonts26

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #538 on: February 10, 2014, 05:39:09 pm »
0

OK, new easy puzzle:

In a 2P game, buying the last province will result in you losing the game, but it's the correct strategic move. Why?
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liopoil

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #539 on: February 10, 2014, 05:41:06 pm »
+1

...you're down by enough that it's actually impossible for you to come back?
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Awaclus

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #540 on: February 10, 2014, 05:52:45 pm »
0

OK, new easy puzzle:

In a 2P game, buying the last province will result in you losing the game, but it's the correct strategic move. Why?
The point counter isn't on, you forgot what the score is and your opponent is going for an alt-VP strategy that would benefit from a longer game.
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Grujah

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #541 on: February 10, 2014, 05:55:32 pm »
+1

OK, new easy puzzle:

In a 2P game, buying the last province will result in you losing the game, but it's the correct strategic move. Why?

You have 13$ and 2 buys, and also buy a Duchy for the win?
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liopoil

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #542 on: February 10, 2014, 05:58:02 pm »
+1

masquerade and it's impossible to know that you would lose, but the odds make it more likely that you would win by buying it now than if you wait.

EDIT: oh wait, 2P.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #543 on: February 10, 2014, 06:01:31 pm »
0

buying the last province will result in you losing the game

This phrase is really ambiguous.  Literally, you're saying that if I buy the last province, I will lose the game, no matter what.  In which case it is not possible for it to be the strategically correct move, assuming "strategically correct" means the move that will most likely lead to my win (or draw).

That being said, maybe what you're going for is something like returning it with Ambassador, but then I think Grujah's solution of "also buy a Duchy" is also correct.

Actually, I think Awaclus's solution is the best, since even though it assumes sub-optimal play in the past, it still correctly answers the puzzle given optimal play in the present.
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jonts26

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #544 on: February 10, 2014, 06:43:54 pm »
+2

strategically correct may have been more ambiguous than I thought. Perhaps I shouldve worded it 'not  strategically wrong'. Anyway I was going for liopoil's winning is impossible answer.
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jonts26

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #545 on: February 10, 2014, 07:37:24 pm »
0

OK, next easy puzzle: You have 11 scouts in play. How?
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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #546 on: February 10, 2014, 07:39:14 pm »
0

OK, next easy puzzle: You have 11 scouts in play. How?

One of them is a Band of Misfits.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

jonts26

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #547 on: February 10, 2014, 07:41:17 pm »
0

OK, next easy puzzle: You have 11 scouts in play. How?

One of them is a Band of Misfits.

Almost....
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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #548 on: February 10, 2014, 07:47:57 pm »
+3

OK, next easy puzzle: You have 11 scouts in play. How?

One of them is a Band of Misfits.

Almost....

Two of them are Band of Misfits? :P

But sudgy's answer still works if you have a way to gain and play that last Scout after playing BoM.
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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #549 on: February 10, 2014, 07:51:56 pm »
+1

OK, next easy puzzle: You have 11 scouts in play. How?

One of them is a Band of Misfits.

Almost....

Two of them are Band of Misfits? :P

But sudgy's answer still works if you have a way to gain and play that last Scout after playing BoM.

The real reason the blank cards were included was that you could make more Scouts.
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