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[swedenman]

I played Band of Misfits as a Reserve card and set it aside on the Tavern mat. How do I get it back?

At the end of the game.

Well of course, but I meant how do I get it back during the game and play it again?

TR-BoM, first play it as any Reserve (say Guide), set it aside. Then I can play it again.

Well, that's for playing it again. Getting it back might work like this, but I'm not sure how the ruling is there:

I have Princed a TR. At the start of my turn, I play TR-BoM as Guide, setting it aside. As my BoM-as-Guide is set aside, it reverts to being a BoM. Now I play it again, as Guide. For a split second, my BoM on the Tavern mat turn into Guide, immediately wanting to revert back to a BoM. But "ha!", I say and jump up. You're a Guide now, and it's the start of my turn, so I may call you! And I do!

I honestly wonder if this would work.

It wouldn't work. BoM never becomes Guide the second time, because it's out of play. Therefore, you can't call it.

[swedenman]

I played Band of Misfits as a Reserve card and set it aside on the Tavern mat. How do I get it back?

So I usually hesitate to say this for these sorts of brain teasers, but I'm actually pretty sure this is impossible. I mean, once it's there there's no way to get it back. It's no longer the Reserve it was played as, so it can't just be called, and there's no card that interacts with a general card on your Tavern mat, so it's not like there's any other card that can take it off. And there's no way to use Procession or a similar card to put it on the Tavern mat and then immediately move it because the card in question is guaranteed to lose track of it in that situation, is it not? I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'm pretty sure those two rules would rule out any possible solution to this puzzle.

[Rubby]

So I usually hesitate to say this for these sorts of brain teasers, but I'm actually pretty sure this is impossible. I mean, once it's there there's no way to get it back. It's no longer the Reserve it was played as, so it can't just be called, and there's no card that interacts with a general card on your Tavern mat, so it's not like there's any other card that can take it off. And there's no way to use Procession or a similar card to put it on the Tavern mat and then immediately move it because the card in question is guaranteed to lose track of it in that situation, is it not? I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'm pretty sure those two rules would rule out any possible solution to this puzzle.

For Lose Track rule purposes, do cards generally expect to find themselves in play?

If so, then I agree that there is no way to get it back. If not, then you can Throne Room BoM, play it as Wine Merchant, then play it as Mining Village and trash it, then get it back with Graverobber.

[Elanchana]

Wait, hold everything. Can't you Procession the BoM so that it gets trashed regardless of what it's played as, then gain it back with Graverobber? You could play it as a reserve card both times then.

[markusin]

Wait, hold everything. Can't you Procession the BoM so that it gets trashed regardless of what it's played as, then gain it back with Graverobber? You could play it as a reserve card both times then.

The question is whether a card is lost track of when moved to the Tavern Mat, making it unable to be trashed by Procession.  This goes for all reserve cards, not just BoM as a reserve. The ruling seems to be that Procession can't trash a reserve once it moves to the Tavern Mat due to the lose track rule, similar to Procession/Madman.

[swedenman]

So I usually hesitate to say this for these sorts of brain teasers, but I'm actually pretty sure this is impossible. I mean, once it's there there's no way to get it back. It's no longer the Reserve it was played as, so it can't just be called, and there's no card that interacts with a general card on your Tavern mat, so it's not like there's any other card that can take it off. And there's no way to use Procession or a similar card to put it on the Tavern mat and then immediately move it because the card in question is guaranteed to lose track of it in that situation, is it not? I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'm pretty sure those two rules would rule out any possible solution to this puzzle.

For Lose Track rule purposes, do cards generally expect to find themselves in play?

Not as a general rule, but if a card plays another card and then does something else with it (for example, Procession) then it will always expect to find it in play when it does the second thing.

[Rubby]

For Lose Track rule purposes, do cards generally expect to find themselves in play?

Not as a general rule, but if a card plays another card and then does something else with it (for example, Procession) then it will always expect to find it in play when it does the second thing.

But my question pertained to (BoM as) Mining Village expecting to find itself in play. If Mining Village's self-trashing ability doesn't care whether it's in play, then I have solved ephesos's puzzle. Edit: missed that eHalcyon already said this.

[TheOthin]

For Lose Track rule purposes, do cards generally expect to find themselves in play?

Not as a general rule, but if a card plays another card and then does something else with it (for example, Procession) then it will always expect to find it in play when it does the second thing.

But my question pertained to (BoM as) Mining Village expecting to find itself in play. If Mining Village's self-trashing ability doesn't care whether it's in play, then I have solved ephesos's puzzle.

It does. This is why Mining Village was the first card to invoke Lose Track.

[eHalcyon]

I already called put exactly this scenario as a potential solution that actually doesn't work.

[pacovf]

Some potential solutions improve with a second viewing.

[Rubby]

I already called put exactly this scenario as a potential solution that actually doesn't work.

Oops, missed that. So what's the official ruling as to why it doesn't work? I know Lose Track accounts for Throne Room not being able to put a trashed Mining Village back in play, and I know a trashed Mining Village can't re-trash itself because trashing requires moving to the trash from somewhere else, but I'm not aware of any ruling saying that a Mining Village (or BoM as Mining Village) can't move itself to the trash from a non-in-play location.

Maybe it's that the second play of BoM in that scenario is actually playing a virtual BoM and not the one that is on the Tavern mat, so there is nothing to trash?

[swedenman]

For Lose Track rule purposes, do cards generally expect to find themselves in play?

Not as a general rule, but if a card plays another card and then does something else with it (for example, Procession) then it will always expect to find it in play when it does the second thing.

But my question pertained to (BoM as) Mining Village expecting to find itself in play. If Mining Village's self-trashing ability doesn't care whether it's in play, then I have solved ephesos's puzzle. Edit: missed that eHalcyon already said this.

Oh, I missed the "themselves" part of your question. My bad. But yes, Mining Village's self-trashing can only move itself from in play to the trash. If it's not in play then MV has lost track of itself. I believe the rationale behind the ruling is simply that the trashing on Mining Village is meant to be strictly interpreted as moving MV from in play to the trash. That isn't clear from the card text or the FAQ, but it was needed to prevent silliness involving TR-MV on a Possession turn, I believe.

[Awaclus]

I just bought a Province with a Hovel in hand and didn't trash it. Why?

A few obvious answers that didn't actually happen this time:

• Cornucopia
• Gardens
• Market Square
• Other trashing (including forced trashing, TFB, and Masquerade)

There are multiple non-obvious answers that I can think of in addition to the one that actually happened, and there are probably more that I didn't think of.

Hint: It was undoubtedly a good play on a strong kingdom.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Some more obvious reasons!
It was the end of the game
You were buying another VP card and felt the 2nd one had really earned the Hovel trashing

Something non-obvious
You might want your deck size to increase for Vault or Secret Chamber money in the case where you are drawing your whole deck.
Possession turn and you wanted the Hovel to be in their shuffle, though this doesn't actually work with the wording "I just bought a Province."
You could imagine deck states where your opponent has Possessions and you don't want to improve your deck, this seems pretty speculative and marginal in any case but I can see someone talking themselves into it.

[Awaclus]

You might want your deck size to increase for Vault or Secret Chamber money in the case where you are drawing your whole deck.

This is one of the answers I had in mind, but not the one that actually happened.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Here are some other ones:
Tribute
Far-fetched scenario where you have lots of Scrying Pools but want a fair number of non-action cards so that your Ironmongers have a better chance of acting as villages before you draw your deck.

[Awaclus]

Here are some other ones:
Tribute
Far-fetched scenario where you have lots of Scrying Pools but want a fair number of non-action cards so that your Ironmongers have a better chance of acting as villages before you draw your deck.

Hadn't thought of these.

[TheOthin]

Quest.

[Ghacob]

I just bought a Province with a Hovel in hand and didn't trash it. Why?

I took a bit of time to try to find the game in question, took more time to figure out why you'd want to not trash it.
That's one of the most convoluted correct decisions I've ever seen.
So this is high level dominion.

[liopoil]

You needed it to discard to tactician on your next turn?
You need to play a warehouse every turn to lower the cost of peddlers, but your deck is so thin that you need more bad cards to discard?

Also storeroom, but that's just the same as secret chamber or vault.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I just bought a Province with a Hovel in hand and didn't trash it. Why?

I took a bit of time to try to find the game in question, took more time to figure out why.
That's one of the most convoluted correct decisions I've ever seen.
So this is high level dominion.

The sad part is it didn't even work out for the intended purpose.

edit: It also only improves his chances of "success" the next turn by 0.48% and his chances of winning the game by even less. Assuming I math'd correctly. Not to disagree with Ghacob, it was a nice thought from Awaclus, but this kind of thing is not really important for high level Dominion play. The attention to detail is good, but even better is having a sense of when these little things make a big difference and learning how to focus your mindpower on those situations vs the times when it's just meaningless for your odds of winning.

[liopoil]

I just bought a Province with a Hovel in hand and didn't trash it. Why?

I took a bit of time to try to find the game in question, took more time to figure out why.
That's one of the most convoluted correct decisions I've ever seen.
So this is high level dominion.

The sad part is it didn't even work out for the intended purpose.

Yes, that is very sad. Hint: He should have bought a borrow too.

[TheOthin]

I thought I got it from looking at the log but now I'm all confused again.

[liopoil]

I thought I got it from looking at the log but now I'm all confused again.

Borrow decreases the handsize of your next turn, which is what he wants. He doesn't need the coin.

[belugawhale]

Could someone post the log?