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[gryph202]

Today, I had the privilege of playing Innovation for the first time ever.  It happened to be on Isotropic.  I get a little gunshy about new games, so it is nice to be able to sample them online before I go out and make a purchase.  With Innovation, I will almost certainly purchase the game from Amazon, but that's not really the point of this thread.

I will perhaps play Dominion at Goko from time to time, but having played Innovation on Isotropic reinforces my personal belief that Goko is not worth spending money on at this point.  Please bear in mind, my opinion is only my own, but I don't think many folks here would disagree with me that Goko's rollout almost eight months ago was a debacle.  I believe that the management at Goko made promises that they couldn't deliver on and still can't.

I love Dominion and I realize that Jay Tummelson at RGG has worked very hard to reach his current level of success.  I will continue to patronize RGG and I will continue to enjoy Dominion up to and including purchasing Dominion: Guilds.  I am NOT calling for a boycott of Goko, RGG, or any of the other parties involved.  Goko will survive or fade away on its own merit (or lack thereof).

I am simply stating my intent that, when it comes to online gaming, I am personally staying with Isotropic.  Chris and the other ladies and gentlemen at Asmadi Games are really sticking their neck out in allowing Innovation on a platform like this, much in the same manner that Jay Tummelson did once upon a time.  I intend to encourage this kind of innovation (pun intended) in future game design, and I hope that many of my fellow Dominion lovers will hop on the Innovation bandwagon whether or not they choose to play Dominion at Goko.

[D Bo]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

[gryph202]

I learned the rules really fast playing on Iso.  It's not a difficult game to pick up, but it's a little more chaotic than my usual gaming fare, and it doesn't play as quickly as Dominion does most of the time.  If you have a hard time finding a tabletop game of Innovation, don't let that scare you away from the Iso implementation.  It's a great game any way you hack (again pun intended) it.

[qmech]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

[eHalcyon]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening.

[gryph202]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening.

I didn't either, until I read through the rules from the Iello version of the game and came back and played a couple more times.  Just knowing the object of the game and how to go about achieving it works wonders.

[eHalcyon]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening.

I didn't either, until I read through the rules from the Iello version of the game and came back and played a couple more times.  Just knowing the object of the game and how to go about achieving it works wonders.

Well, two of us had actually read the rules so we had *some* clue, but it just felt ridiculous with 5 people.  That's a lot of tableaus to track!  It would have been more manageable if we had played 1v1.

The guy who won was one who hadn't read the rules.  He won despite giving us all an extra turn because he didn't notice he could have used one of his dogmas to score and then grab his fifth achievement.

[popsofctown]

You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

[gryph202]

You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

Actually, with the Echoes expansion, there is a proviso for five players.  But theoretically, Dominion could be played with an unlimited number of players as well.  The lack of a limit is nothing more than a reflection of the underlying Iso engine.

[Kirian]

But theoretically, Dominion could be played with an unlimited number of players as well.  The lack of a limit is nothing more than a reflection of the underlying Iso engine.

Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

[eHalcyon]

You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

Was not aware.  And I don't think we included the expansion, so... oops!

For the record, my comment wasn't saying that Innovation is a bad game or anything.  Just that we tried it with lots of players and it was a mess.  A hilarious mess though.

[gryph202]

You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

Was not aware.  And I don't think we included the expansion, so... oops!

For the record, my comment wasn't saying that Innovation is a bad game or anything.  Just that we tried it with lots of players and it was a mess.  A hilarious mess though.

My recommendation would be the same for online play as IRL:  Read the rules, make sure you at least know what the object is and how to achieve it, and play your first several games with another player who is just as clueless as you are.  This advice probably won't do you much good now, but for any other Innovation newcomers reading this, it will smooth the rough path somewhat.

[teasel]

this game is fucking amazing!
i can't stop playing! come play with me!

[Ozle]

But theoretically, Dominion could be played with an unlimited number of players as well.  The lack of a limit is nothing more than a reflection of the underlying Iso engine.

Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

Damn you sir

[zahlman]

Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

Damn it, I just gained a Curse.

[SirPeebles]

Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

Damn it, I just gained a Curse.

Well there aren't many good openings left if you aren't one of the first 200 or so players.  By the way, the winning move is opening Duchy.

[Gherald]

In the literary interpretations, some people start with 5 coppers and curses

[SirPeebles]

In the literary interpretations, some people start with 5 coppers and curses

I've seen literary interpretations claiming that it is latent Oedipal desire which causes Hamlet's analysis paralysis.  I always figured it was just the difficulty in knowing whether your Smithy will draw another Smithy or a load of cash.

[werothegreat]

In the literary interpretations, some people start with 5 coppers and curses

I've seen literary interpretations claiming that it is latent Oedipal desire which causes Hamlet's analysis paralysis.  I always figured it was just the difficulty in knowing whether your Smithy will draw another Smithy or a load of cash.

Said Hamlet to his Steward: "To trash, or not to trash, that is the question."

[Stealth Tomato]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening.

This is also how it works when you play Innovation live. It's a card game where every card is unique and has a horrendous amount of text.

I've played six games of it live now, each time going in hoping it will get better this time since I understand the mechanics more now, but every time I end up with a splitting headache, a feeling of unfulfillment, and a desire to douse the cards in gasoline and light them on fire.

To play effectively, you need to be able to anticipate and prepare for your opponents' potential moves. Since all cards are available in each game, you can't do that unless you've memorized all the cards, which you realistically can't because they're all unique and contain a huge amount of information.

[zahlman]

On a serious note, though, is there somewhere I can get the Innovation rule sheet that doesn't involve signing up for BGG?

[jsh357]

On a serious note, though, is there somewhere I can get the Innovation rule sheet that doesn't involve signing up for BGG?

http://www.asmadigames.com/innovation/InnovationRulesWeb.pdf

[Watno]

On a less serious note, I think everyone should have a BGG account.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

[eHalcyon]

I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening.

This is also how it works when you play Innovation live. It's a card game where every card is unique and has a horrendous amount of text.

I've played six games of it live now, each time going in hoping it will get better this time since I understand the mechanics more now, but every time I end up with a splitting headache, a feeling of unfulfillment, and a desire to douse the cards in gasoline and light them on fire.

To play effectively, you need to be able to anticipate and prepare for your opponents' potential moves. Since all cards are available in each game, you can't do that unless you've memorized all the cards, which you realistically can't because they're all unique and contain a huge amount of information.

I disagree with this.  I think memorizing all the cards is absolutely possible and actually not too difficult if you actually work on it.  Human memory is amazing!  But the main reason I think it is possible is because most of us here have memorized all the Dominion cards.  I know what all the Dominion cards do, including those in Dark Ages, and I can tell you what most are word for word.  So if I played Innovation a lot, I'm sure I would start to remember what everything is.

That said, it does make Innovation feel a lot more chaotic for newbies.  With Dominion, at least you can see everything that will be available at the start of the game.  You spend a few minutes to read 10 cards.  As a newbie to Innovation, you don't want to go through 10 full decks.