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Author Topic: How would you open on this board? #2  (Read 11563 times)

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ftl

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 04:31:43 am »
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No, I'm pretty sure mountebank is better at $5. The +$2 is a big deal.
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Davio

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 04:56:50 am »
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I agree with Sea Hag on $4

To expand this conversation, how would you open on $5? I know that Mountebank is probably one of the best $5 openings out there, but part of me wonders if Sea Hag is better even at $5.
I think you have to go Mountebank, given the fact that you can't buy a Silver and still need some resources.
Maybe a Hag on the first shuffle?
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Morgrim7

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2013, 06:05:38 am »
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No, I'm pretty sure mountebank is better at $5. The +$2 is a big deal.
Quote
You’re player 1 and have $4 in your first hand. What should you buy?
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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2013, 06:06:48 am »
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No, I'm pretty sure mountebank is better at $5. The +$2 is a big deal.
Quote
You’re player 1 and have $4 in your first hand. What should you buy?
To expand this conversation, how would you open on $5?
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crazyrunnerguy

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2013, 03:03:10 pm »
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Hag/Silver as first player, with Silver/MB on next pass through the deck. Anything else and you're just asking to lose the curse war, no?

If there is no Sea Hag, I'd open Moneylender/Silver into Mountebank.

At $5, Mountebank/nothing, no question.

This game is going to end with Duchies, Curses and Estates gone.

I would definitely go sea hag; better reliable cursing, copper is not very painful this game, and there's only a 40% chance of a T2 mountebank.


Agreed. Note that there is counterplay to the copper junking from Mountebank in Moneylender and Coppersmith.
Moneylender, yes, but there is nothing to trash Curses or Estates with. I think you'd have a hard time getting more than two coppers to hit with the Coppersmith in hand once the junk starts flying. You're more likely to get terminal collision with Hag/MB or draw it with silvers.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 03:07:50 pm by crazyrunnerguy »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2013, 12:33:22 am »
+2

I voted Navigator, and it looks like I'm the only one. I'm not too surprised, but I thought there might be at least a couple. When I put this poll up, I was fairly sure it was the right answer, but looking at sims it's really close, but without adapting Duchy buy rules, Sea Hag is a slight (2%) favorite. I think the 3 reasonable choices are Hag, Horse Traders and Navigator.

I think the most distinguishing aspects of this kingdom are:
1. Curses
2. No trashing
3. No drawing
4. No non-terminals
5. Not even any terminals that are good past the early game!

There's basically nothing you can do other than grab a few terminals (preferably Mountebanks) and money.

Nomad Camp doesn't have a good enough chance of getting you that early Mountebank to offset the fact that it immediately turns into a Woodcutter after that. Navigator can't get you a Mountebank play on turn 3, but it can get one on turn 4 at least half as often and is much more useful later.

Moneylender's trashing is really not that useful, since Copper is not that bad, and you're more interested in cycling early to play cursers than to have the added later cycling from removed Copper, which makes Navigator better here too.

The bots I tested are the Mountebank bot with a rule to buy one Nav or HT at the start and the Sea Hag bot changed to buy one Hag and one MB instead of 2 Hags.
The results I got (2-player, 4/3 start) are:
Hag 49 > 47 Nav (58-37 and 40-56 depending on turn order)
Nav 50 > 46 HT (58-37 and 40-55)
Hag 50 > 46 HT (58-37 and 42-54)

All other openings added to the Mountebank bot lose handily to these.

HT and Nav stand to benefit more from smart play, since you may want to keep a Curse in hand to hit a money threshold with HT, and I'm not sure how smartly the sim handles choosing when to discard with Nav. The few samples I've seen haven't done anything stupid like discarding a MB early, but it surely doesn't consider at what times $5 is a good hand in the late game. Either way, these are all within the margin of error of dealing with endgame VP buys.

My rationale for thinking Navigator would be best is that it allows for the most plays of your Mountebanks and eventually your Golds, which is basically what the game should come down to, but the other two options do have their appeal as well.

If there were any other decent $5 in the kingdom, like Lab, Cartographer, or Vault, I think the best opening would likely be Sea Hag, since you don't want to be spending your $5 hands on Mountebanks when you can get a Curser on a $4 hand. But without an other options at $5, you should be happy to buy Mountebanks. As the kingdom is, Sea Hag still might be best, but it's at least really close.

So, unfortunately, I think like Rabid did in the first edition of this series, I failed to give you a board where you don't want to open Sea Hag (which has to be pretty rare without good trashing or Lighthouse).

The actual kingdom was in a 3-player IRL game, with MB, Hag, Nav, and HT, plus a bunch of junk, which I replaced since (1) I don't remember what it was, and (2) I wanted to see if people would pick things like Nomad Camp, Moneylender, and Feast. The interesting thing is that if you put these 3 bots against each other in a 3-player sim, the Sea Hag has no chance, losing something like 37-37-20, but if multiple players go Hag, it's very close again. This of course is a general trend in 3-player, where the players who play similarly will be favored against the odd man out. But even if you're the one not going Sea Hag, you're still in good shape with Nav, and probably favored with HT (since reactions are better in 3-player).
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Morgrim7

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2013, 04:01:20 am »
0

No, I'm pretty sure mountebank is better at $5. The +$2 is a big deal.
Quote
You’re player 1 and have $4 in your first hand. What should you buy?
To expand this conversation, how would you open on $5?
Mountebank.
EDIT: maybe Hags too, later.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
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DG

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Re: How would you open on this board? #2
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 09:21:42 am »
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From my simulations I found sea hag/silver to be the best followed by horse traders/silver. I could make a lot of changes in the sims but a 3-5%gap between them was pretty constant. I think an important part of this kingdom is the terminal collision, so a silver/silver opening isn't as stupid as it looks. In the endgame a deck with sea hags can turn to horse traders for economy with less worry about terminal collision, negating the usual +2 coin advantage from the mountebank.

Revisiting the sims I can see that a navigator opening is competitive, so perhaps with human decision making it could be a top play.
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