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[Powerman]

Basically the card is a Warehouse + Wharf combo.  Although, it's effect is not nearly as strong as either, together it should be a powerful enough card.

Wharfhouse
Action-Duration
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 cards, discard 2 cards.

It adds filtering for both turns, although the next turn effect is much stronger.  Thoughts on pricing this card?

[enfynet]

Feels like Inn as a Duration. Inn and Wharf both cost 5.

[DStu]

Feels like Inn as a Duration. Inn and Wharf both cost 5.

But Inn of course is only worth $5 because of its duration effect, without this it would probably be $3 I guess.

[eHalcyon]

Feels like Inn as a Duration. Inn and Wharf both cost 5.

But Inn of course is only worth $5 because of its duration effect, without this it would probably be $3 I guess.

Inn isn't a duration...?

Without the Duration effect, this is usually worse than Warehouse because it sifts through only 2 instead of 3 cards, so this should cost less than $3.  But it is much better with the Duration effect.  The free sifting on the next turn is nice and is equivalent to playing a card that reads "+3 Cards, +1 Action, discard 2 cards".

[RTT]

Feels like Inn as a Duration. Inn and Wharf both cost 5.

But Inn of course is only worth $5 because of its duration effect, without this it would probably be $3 I guess.

I think you mean the shuffeling actions from the discard to draw pile.
without it its probably worth 4 because its a better village.

Back to the WareWharfhouse:
I think it has to cost 5 because the duration effect is very strong and its non terminal so playing multiples of it isnt uncommon. Its still weaker than Wharf but hey a lot of cards are.

[eHalcyon]

Feels like Inn as a Duration. Inn and Wharf both cost 5.

But Inn of course is only worth $5 because of its duration effect, without this it would probably be $3 I guess.

I think you mean the shuffeling actions from the discard to draw pile.
without it its probably worth 4 because its a better village.

Oh, if that's what DStu meant, then it's a tough call between $3 and $4.  Inn-without-on-gain is not strictly better than Village because it decreases your hand size.

[DStu]

Feels like Inn as a Duration. Inn and Wharf both cost 5.

But Inn of course is only worth $5 because of its duration effect, without this it would probably be $3 I guess.

I think you mean the shuffeling actions from the discard to draw pile.
without it its probably worth 4 because its a better village.

Oh, if that's what DStu meant, then it's a tough call between $3 and $4.  Inn-without-on-gain is not strictly better than Village because it decreases your hand size.

I was just commenting on "Inn costs $5", noting that the important part of Inn is not in this card.

I'm also not sure on $5 for this.  The point is that it is not very stackable, so I don't know if the $5 is needed.  Yes, 4 out of 6 now and 5 out of 7  next turn is strong, but 4 out of 8 and 5 out of 9 is not two times as strong, and it is getting worse.  Now this is a duration so you naturally want more of them anyway because they keep missing the shuffles, but that is also a weakness (you get less for your price), especially for a card like that which is also sifting and thus sees 14 cards.  The Duration effect is obviously a lot weaker than the one of Wharf, it's easier to play more of them, but than again playing more of them is not as strong as playing lots of Wharfs is. 
It's very nice to set up megaturn combos, but these are not that plentyfull that they will be possible in most Wharfhouse games.

[qmech]

This is a DISCRETE poll; Only creator and admins can see votes. There are only finitely many options.

[DStu]

This is a DISCRETE poll; Only creator and admins can see votes. There are only finitelycountable many options.

[Asper]

I'd say it's a 5$, but it's difficult. Actually i have changed my decision several times while writing this...

The Duration effect is strictly better than Warehouse, so 3$ is no option.

The instant effect is worse than Warehouse. So it basically plays a card at least worth 4$ and one worth less than an existing 3$ - an existing, good 3$.
Merchant Ship is basically two Woodcutters, worth 3$, and costs 5$, but also Merchant ship is stackable. Here the duration stacks more than the instant effect, but still the avarage "cost" of the two cards you'd usually play to get there is about 3$. Also this is easier play several times than Merchant Ship, and so it's easier to stack the part where stacking matters.

Durations usually have a "discount" from what they would be worth when played as one (Caravan would be a Lab when played as one), and this would add up to + 1 Action, + 4 Cards, Discard 4 Cards. This is not only clearly better than Warehouse, but probably also above 5$, when compared to Embassy. So with the discount we give for splitting it, it would be a 5$ again.

Those are two different argumentations, the second being a bit rough. But they come to the same conclusion, so yeah, at the end of this post i feel quite good about saying it should be 5$.

[Tables]

Those arguments don't really work. Merchant Ship is much worse than two Woodcutters, it doesn't give +buy which is kinda the key thing. The thing with Durations is they miss the reshuffle a lot, which means they need a bigger effect than they otherwise would to justify playing them less.

I think this is the kind of card you'd want to playtest. My feeling is that it'd be okay at $4 - the next turn effect is better than playing a Warehouse (edge cases aside) but it's on a duration, and the effect this turn is less good, marginal probably. Add in that it's missing the reshuffle a lot and it feels definitely too weak at $5.

[NoMoreFun]

IIRC Inn was proven to be slightly too strong for $4 without the when gain.

It's closer to Caravan than Wharf IMO. It's more powerful early and late game, but you can't just rush it like with Caravan. Caravan is one of the best $4s though, so $5 sounds about right.

[Asper]

Those arguments don't really work. Merchant Ship is much worse than two Woodcutters, it doesn't give +buy which is kinda the key thing. The thing with Durations is they miss the reshuffle a lot, which means they need a bigger effect than they otherwise would to justify playing them less.

I think this is the kind of card you'd want to playtest. My feeling is that it'd be okay at $4 - the next turn effect is better than playing a Warehouse (edge cases aside) but it's on a duration, and the effect this turn is less good, marginal probably. Add in that it's missing the reshuffle a lot and it feels definitely too weak at $5.

Um, i obviously didn't play for a much too long time if i forgot the missing buys... @__@

But actually this makes the point that the card should cost 5$ even stronger. If Merchant Ship is worse than what i premised, this should even more decidedly cost more than 4$.

Actually...
I'm not sure this card works.
Is the instant effect a price for the later good effect? It's not going the whole way then, as Tactician and Outpost do. Or is it supposed to be a card you want to play for both turns? It's too bad the turn i play it, then.
So... What is it?
Probably this lack of clarity on what you want to use this for is what drives people away from it - and makes them believe it's not worth 5$. Actually, i'm insecure about it again

[LastFootnote]

Actually...
I'm not sure this card works.
Is the instant effect a price for the later good effect? It's not going the whole way then, as Tactician and Outpost do. Or is it supposed to be a card you want to play for both turns? It's too bad the turn i play it, then.

Dude, ALL Duration cards are bad on the turn you play them. Wharf and Fishing Village are the only ones that come close to being desirable.

Lighthouse: +1 Action, +$1. Basically a Copper.
Haven: +1 Card, +1 Action, discard a card.
Fishing Village: +2 Actions, +$1. Worse than Squire.
Caravan: +1 Card, +1 Action. A useless cantrip.
Wharf: +2 Cards, +1 Buy. Probably a $2 card.
Merchant Ship: +$2. Basically a Duchess.

[Asper]

Actually...
I'm not sure this card works.
Is the instant effect a price for the later good effect? It's not going the whole way then, as Tactician and Outpost do. Or is it supposed to be a card you want to play for both turns? It's too bad the turn i play it, then.

Dude, ALL Duration cards are bad on the turn you play them. Wharf and Fishing Village are the only ones that come close to being desirable.

Lighthouse: +1 Action, +$1. Basically a Copper.
Haven: +1 Card, discard a card.
Fishing Village: +2 Actions, +$1. Worse than Squire.
Caravan: +1 Card, +1 Action. A useless cantrip.
Wharf: +2 Cards, +1 Buy. Probably a $2 card.
Merchant Ship: +$2. Basically a Duchess.

"Errare humanum est, sed in errare perseverare diabolicum."

I was wrong. Today is not my day. I'll go to bed now.

[eHalcyon]

Also, MS is much better than Woodcutter on the second turn because it comes free. MS is two Conspirators, the second one being activated.

[Powerman]

The thoughts in the thread are similar to mine - it is a strong $4, but a fairly weak $5 card.  With that said, I think the card works better at either $3 or $5 than at $4.  Compare these two cards - do their add-ons / drawbacks make them right for $3 or $5?

Wharfhouse
Action-Duration $3
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 cards, discard 2 cards.
____________
When you gain this, your opponents draw up to 2 cards and discard the same number.

Wharfhouse
Action-Duration $5
+2 Actions
Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 cards, discard 2 cards.
____________
When you trash this, +2 cards, discard 2 cards.

[SirPeebles]

This is a DISCRETE poll; Only creator and admins can see votes. There are only finitely countable many open options.

[Guy Srinivasan]

I think it's $4, and that it's very close to a Caravan. The first one you play is really good, and if they had no diminishing returns as you played more of them then Wharfhouse would definitely have to be a $5. Since they have quickly diminishing returns, though, I'd say they're acceptable at $4. The only reason they might not be is if they're just too good in Engines. And they might well be. Playtest, if they keep dominating and enabling killer engines, stick 'em at $5. Otherwise they're a must-grab-one, maybe-two, don't-need-them-after-that sort of card.

Try it at the cheapest price it might work first.

[DStu]

This is a DISCRETE poll; Only creator and admins can see votes. There are only finitely countable many open continuous options.

They are also all closed...

[zahlman]

Would you consider making it a terminal at $4 (maybe even $3, since it's not like you'd even *want* to open with two of them)? Opening Wharfhouse/Silver gives you probably better chances at a $5 or $6 on the first reshuffle than two Silvers, but it's not exactly game-breaking since you still only have one Silver added to your economy. As noted, the effect is self-limiting, which makes it not as appealing/important to make it nonterminal in the first place.

[heron]

I'm confused about why people say that this is not stackable; if you can play a few of these reliably it could replace decent trashing I expect.

[SirPeebles]

I'm confused about why people say that this is not stackable; if you can play a few of these reliably it could replace decent trashing I expect.

Because it decreases your handsize (this turn).  Same reason as Warehouse is not stackable. 

[ahyangyi]

I have a feeling that it might just work at $3. Opening with two copies of it isn't a problem. Compare it against Fishing Village: you get "+2 cards then discard 2" twice instead of "+1 action +$1". I think it's weaker than Fishing Village.

On the other hand, it does feel a bit stronger than Warehouse, which is also priced at $3.

Therefore, if we set it at $3, it will probably be between Warehouse (a good $3) and Fishing Village (a nearly broken $3; it almost breaks the promise that no $3 should be strictly stronger than Silver). It would need some playtesting to check whether it's overpowered.

From this point of view, I think setting it at $4 is a very safe decision. $3 a bit risky but not impossible.