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Author Topic: Redemption expansion cards - updated  (Read 17565 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2013, 10:44:41 am »
+1

Ale House
$5 - Action
Discard a Treasure card (or reveal a hand with no Treasures).
+4 Cards
+1 Action
Put 2 cards from your hand on the bottom of your deck in any order.

I'd test it with discarding the two cards rather than putting them on the bottom of your deck. The fact that this leaves you with the same hand size if you had any Treasures in hand means that it's not strictly better than Laborartory or Stables. The discarding is faster than putting cards back into your deck and the card could probably use the power boost. If it's too powerful, go back to putting the cards on the bottom of your deck.


I'm confused by this... isn't putting it on the bottom of your deck more powerful than discarding them on average? Putting them on the bottom of the deck means that you'll see them sooner. It's basically equivalent to a Stash-like ability that says you put them on the top of your deck when you shuffle.

It depends on which two cards we're talking about. If it's two Victory cards, you'd rather discard them. If it's two useful cards, you'd rather put them back. Which one is better depends on your deck composition. I believe that discarding the cards would make Alehouse more powerful on average. Also, the decision of what to discard is much easier than the decision of what to put back, making the card resolve faster.

Oh duh. For some reason I was automatically only thinking of discarding good cards.

Also, you have a typo in your Cudgel rewording:

Each other player draws a card, then chooses one: he discards 2 cards; or he gains a Curse; or he trashes a Treasure from his hand that is not a Copper (or reveals a hand with no Coppers).

It's not about revealing no Coppers, it's revealing no other treasures. Probably (or reveals a hand with no such cards)?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2013, 10:45:54 am »
0

Also, you have a typo in your Cudgel rewording:

Each other player draws a card, then chooses one: he discards 2 cards; or he gains a Curse; or he trashes a Treasure from his hand that is not a Copper (or reveals a hand with no Coppers).

It's not about revealing no Coppers, it's revealing no other treasures. Probably (or reveals a hand with no such cards)?

Oh, nice catch. Thanks!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 10:50:21 am »
0

elHalcyon and LastFootnote (and a number of others as well), thank you for your detailed comments. I never expected such time from others, and I really appreciate it.

I've again updated many of the cards due to the suggestions made here. There are still one or two that I've kept pretty much the same (namely Inventor). While I get the concerns, we've just had way too much fun with it and found it to be a lot less complicated in real-play. And that's what it's really all about, right?

Besides my own family and friends, none of these cards mean much to anyone or ever will, but that's okay, because we love the game, love the expansions, and love using these cards--especially with many of the clarifying comments and edits, thanks to all of you!

I truly am honored that you took the time.

Nothing at all wrong with a card that may "break" a bunch of Dominion rules and conventions if it's just for you to have fun with at home. :) I really do want to know though, what do you do currently at home if you play Inventor and then play something like Minion or Celler that causes you to discard the temporary cards you gained? Especially if you reshuffle in the middle of your turn. At the end of the turn, do you just dig through your deck to find the cards you need to put back?
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Asper

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 11:04:21 am »
0

Here's an idea for Ale House: Make an opponent decide where to put both cards.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 11:05:39 am by Asper »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 11:09:14 am »
+1

Here's an idea for Ale House: Make an opponent decide where to put both cards.

Not bad, but probably leads to a bit too much AP and slowness.
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enfynet

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2013, 11:42:54 am »
0

 Kings Court - Kings Court (3x) - Inventor (3x) - Masquerade (3x) - Minion (3x) [discard attack]

Where are the cards picked up by Inventor?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2013, 12:29:58 pm »
+1

Guys, I don't think anyone's going to convince him to change it at this point. Not unless they've got a less confusing way to do the exact same thing.
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enfynet

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 12:35:39 pm »
+2

My solution would be to Golem the two cards. Then at the start of Clean-Up return them to the supply. (I wouldn't bother digging through the trash though.)
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One Armed Man

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 01:50:04 pm »
0

Guys, I don't think anyone's going to convince him to change it at this point. Not unless they've got a less confusing way to do the exact same thing.
Challenge accepted.

Inventor2
$6 - Action
Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply other than Inventor2 that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play except it gains "If you have no more than 1 card with this ability in play, trash a card from your hand, discard a card, and gain an Inventor2 and play it. At the beginning of your Clean-up, return this card to the supply."

Not quite exactly the same but I tried. I don't like the card nonetheless.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 01:52:29 pm by One Armed Man »
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enfynet

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2013, 02:28:57 pm »
0

Inventor
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Trash a card.  Discard a card.  When you do, put 2 Action cards from any supply pile into your hand.  During the clean-up phase, return both cards to supply, even if the card was a Duration or was trashed.  Inventor can be played only once per turn.

I will comment on Inventor. Many seem to think that tracking the two Action cards is an issue. I just don't get it. If, for one turn, I choose Council Room and Market, for example, how hard is it to play them on this turn just as I would if they'd already been in my hand and then to remember--and I'm sure your opponent will have no problem remembering!--which two cards you chose for this turn.

Guys, I don't think anyone's going to convince him to change it at this point. Not unless they've got a less confusing way to do the exact same thing.

Inventor
$6 - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  Discard a card.  If you do, choose 2 Action cards from the supply other than Inventor and set them aside, then play them in either order. If this is the first time you played an Inventor this turn, +1 Action.

At the start of Clean-up, return both chosen Action cards to the supply.

-----

That's about as close as I can come to the original card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2013, 02:49:35 pm »
+2

Inventor
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Trash a card and discard a card.  If this is the first time you played an Inventor this turn, do this twice: select an Action card from the Supply and play it. 
---
At the start of Clean-up this turn, return cards selected by Inventor that are in play to the Supply.


Notes:
- Each time you play Inventor you will get +1 Action and will have to trash and discard.  The main benefit of Inventor can only occur once per turn, even if you play it more than that.  This solves any issue with TR, KC, Golem.

- You must play the cards you take from the Supply.  This will make it much easier to track them and limits the zaniness that can occur from discarding or trashing the selected cards.

- To limit confusion, this card does not intervene if a card DOES get trashed somehow (e.g. if you take a self-trasher).  In such cases, Inventor would just lose track and be unable to return it.  The card would stay in the trash.  This solution is not as good for the original Inventor because putting the cards in hand make it easy for you to discard them or lose track of them some other way.

- Aside from self-trashers like Embargo and Pillage, the only card I can think of that abuses this wording is Island.  I think every other Action card would stay in play and get returned to the Supply.  Note that even Hermit and Scheme don't get around this because Hermit and Scheme's target have to be discarded from play for Madman/top-decking to take place.

- Similar to playing them with Procession, duration cards will still give you a next-turn bonus even though they are returned to the Supply.

- I'm not completely sure what would happen if a card you take from the supply empties the third pile.  I think the game-end conditions are only checked after clean-up, so the cards can still be returned and the game won't end.

- Since this lets you play two actions already, I would remove the +1 action.

- While this card works, I guess, I think it is too similar to Band of Misfits.  It is also similar to Golem, which costs $4p or ~$6.5.  Therefore I would cost this card at $7, even with the loss of +1 action.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 02:51:24 pm by eHalcyon »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2013, 03:05:23 pm »
+1

Guys, I don't think anyone's going to convince him to change it at this point. Not unless they've got a less confusing way to do the exact same thing.
Challenge accepted.

Inventor2
$6 - Action
Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply other than Inventor2 that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play except it gains "If you have no more than 1 card with this ability in play, trash a card from your hand, discard a card, and gain an Inventor2 and play it. At the beginning of your Clean-up, return this card to the supply."

Not quite exactly the same but I tried. I don't like the card nonetheless.

Inventor
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Trash a card.  Discard a card.  When you do, put 2 Action cards from any supply pile into your hand.  During the clean-up phase, return both cards to supply, even if the card was a Duration or was trashed.  Inventor can be played only once per turn.
------------
While this card is in play, you may ignore the "lose track" rule, and any other rules or card effects that would contradict this card. During the clean-up phase, you may look through your or your opponents' draw decks and discard piles, as well as opponents' hands, in order to return the gained action cards to the supply.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 03:08:29 pm by GendoIkari »
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Asper

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2013, 03:34:18 pm »
0

While this card is in play, you may ignore the "lose track" rule, and any other rules or card effects that would contradict this card. During the clean-up phase, you may look through your or your opponents' draw decks and discard piles, as well as opponents' hands, in order to return the gained action cards to the supply.

No... Please, no... This is everything wrong with the card, trying to look like something that follows the rules...
You can't just make a card that says "You may ignore everything contradicting this" - if you make two of those, you'll see why. Also with your wording, "loose track" rule - which is a phantom of a rule allready - is gone for all other cards while Inventor is in play, too. And "You may" means you don't have to, so you can just leave discarded cards where they are. And... Ugh, i don't even want to think about what would contradict Inventor and what not, and which of those things still should be considered unchangeable rules that form the games frame.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 03:37:48 pm by Asper »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2013, 03:41:24 pm »
+1

While this card is in play, you may ignore the "lose track" rule, and any other rules or card effects that would contradict this card. During the clean-up phase, you may look through your or your opponents' draw decks and discard piles, as well as opponents' hands, in order to return the gained action cards to the supply.

No... Please, no... This is everything wrong with the card, trying to look like something that follows the rules...
You can't just make a card that says "You may ignore everything contradicting this" - if you make two of those, you'll see why. Also with your wording, "loose track" rule - which is a phantom of a rule allready - is gone for all other cards while Inventor is in play, too. And "You may" means you don't have to, so you can just leave discarded cards where they are. And... Ugh, i don't even want to think about what would contradict Inventor and what not, and which of those things still should be considered unchangeable rules that form the games frame.

It's OK, man. I'm pretty sure GendoIkari was just being sarcastic. He wasn't seriously suggesting that wording.
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Asper

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2013, 03:52:57 pm »
0

It's OK, man. I'm pretty sure GendoIkari was just being sarcastic. He wasn't seriously suggesting that wording.

Thank Heavens.
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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2013, 07:35:44 pm »
0

elHalcyon, I liked your latest wording for Inventor. Probably the clearest of all.

And I've added the last cards to my 21-card expansion: Sower, Bountiful Harvest, Baptismal, and City Gates. I'm sure there will be tons to correct on these too, but I posted them anyway . . . second pair of eyes, and all that.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2013, 07:41:05 pm »
0

elHalcyon, I liked your latest wording for Inventor. Probably the clearest of all.

And I've added the last cards to my 21-card expansion: Sower, Bountiful Harvest, Baptismal, and City Gates. I'm sure there will be tons to correct on these too, but I posted them anyway . . . second pair of eyes, and all that.

Text?
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enfynet

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2013, 09:30:29 pm »
0

Inventor
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Trash a card and discard a card.  If this is the first time you played an Inventor this turn, do this twice: select an Action card from the Supply and play it. 
---
At the start of Clean-up this turn, return cards selected by Inventor that are in play to the Supply.
Simply based on wording of current cards, I would alter this slightly:

Quote from: Inventor
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Discard a card. If this is the first time you played Inventor this turn, do this twice: Choose an Action card from the Supply other than Inventor and play it.
---
At the start of Clean-Up, return the chosen cards to the Supply.

This way it sort of parallels Golem, Crossroads, and Remake. It still does weird things to Duration cards, but that is unavoidable.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2013, 10:10:53 pm »
0

Inventor
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Trash a card and discard a card.  If this is the first time you played an Inventor this turn, do this twice: select an Action card from the Supply and play it. 
---
At the start of Clean-up this turn, return cards selected by Inventor that are in play to the Supply.
Simply based on wording of current cards, I would alter this slightly:

Quote from: Inventor
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Discard a card. If this is the first time you played Inventor this turn, do this twice: Choose an Action card from the Supply other than Inventor and play it.
---
At the start of Clean-Up, return the chosen cards to the Supply.

This way it sort of parallels Golem, Crossroads, and Remake. It still does weird things to Duration cards, but that is unavoidable.

Splitting up the trash and discard is fine.  That's a good change, I think.

To parallel Crossroads, it should say "first time you played an Inventor", which is how I had it.  Your change makes it different! :P

This card is like Golem in function, but not in wording.  Not sure how either yours parallels it.  Mine already followed Remake; yours doesn't change that.  The capitalization?  OK, there's that.

The "other than Inventor" clause is unnecessary clutter -- playing multiple Inventors is fine thanks to the Crossroads-style wording.

On the words "select" vs. "choose"... this one is tough.  I couldn't think of a representative card because no official card actually takes a card from the Supply temporarily.  Since it's temporary, we want to avoid "gain" and all the things that would entail.  For tracking purposes and since the idea actually moves cards into play, "name a card" is off the table as well.  Since the effect is rather unique, I thought a new word would be best.  I don't think an official card says "select".  On the other hand, I think the word "choose" is typically used for actual choices, e.g. Pawn, Steward.  That said, Scheme has "choose an Action card you have in play", so that might be an acceptable change.

As for the below-the-line text, I used Scheme as a reference.  Scheme says:

Quote
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose an Action card you have in play.  If you discard it from play this turn, put it on your deck.

To follow it, I include "this turn" and specify "in play".  The latter also helps prevent confusion from people who might otherwise try to return trashed cards or set-aside cards.

So, OK, taking your suggestions into account (and also adding in the balance changes I suggested earlier :P):



Inventor
$7 - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  Discard a card.  If this is the first time you played an Inventor this turn, do this twice: Choose an Action card from the Supply and play it.
---
At the start of Clean-up this turn, return the chosen cards you have in play to the Supply.
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enfynet

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2013, 11:07:50 pm »
0

Oops. I thought I left "an Inventor" and I think I just copied "other than Inventor" from mine. Was at work so my focus wasn't all there. :x

I see where you got "this turn" and "in play" from scheme. I think I might just reverse the order of "in play" and "to the Supply"... but that's mostly irrelevant.
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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 02:41:10 am »
0

Here's a description of the newest cards for my expansion:

Sower
$2 - Action-Duration
+1 Action
+ $1
Discard a card from your hand.
---
At the start of your next turn:
+ $2

Baptismal
$4 - Action
Discard two cards, only Curses and Coppers, from your hand. If you do, choose one:
+ 2 Cards; or + 2 Actions
---
If you reveal a hand with no Curses or Coppers, gain a Gold.

Bountiful Harvest
$6 - Action-Duration
Discard 4 cards from your hand. At the start of your next turn, reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 Treasure cards. Put these into your hand, discard the other revealed cards, and + 1 buy.
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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2013, 03:40:52 am »
+1

Baptismal
$4 - Action
Discard two cards, only Curses and Coppers, from your hand. If you do, choose one:
+ 2 Cards; or + 2 Actions
---
If you reveal a hand with no Curses or Coppers, gain a Gold.
This one is going to be tough to get right...

Baptismal
Reveal your hand. Do this twice: discard a Curse or a Copper. If you discarded 2 cards this way, choose one: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions. If you revealed a hand with no Copper or Curses, gain a Gold.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2013, 04:45:43 am »
0

My gut says that Sower is weak, but it might be OK.  It's equivalent to Merchant Ship on the next turn, at least.  But the first turn is just so, so terrible, I don't think it makes up for it.  Even on a $2 card.



Baptismal seems very random and fiddly.  When designing a card, ask yourself what role it is intended to play.  Baptismal either gives you a very, very weak effect, or it lets you gain a Gold.
Let's look at the first part -- it gives you either +2 Cards or +2 Actions.  Each of these alone would be worth less than $2 on a card.  How do we know this?  Moat is $2 and gives +2 Cards AND it blocks attacks.  +2 Actions can be found on Native Village and Squire, which are $2 cards that each have extra effects.  Putting the choice of both on Baptismal would, at best, bump it up to $3.  But that's unlikely -- Squire gives a bunch of choices too, and it's still only $2.

But then you have that penalty -- you have to discard Curses or Coppers to get the cards or actions.  This is a significant penalty.  Most of the time you will be discarding Copper, and it usually won't be worth it just to get +2 Cards or +2 Actions.  Don't get me wrong, sometimes it'll be important (the actions especially), but most of the time it won't.  The +2 cards would almost never be useful because you end up decreasing your hand size with a terminal action that doesn't actually do anything but replace a couple of weak cards.

So what about the other possibility?  If you reveal no Curses or Coppers, you gain a Gold.  The main problem I see with this is that it is only useful if you have a way of getting rid of your starting Copper, either by removing them from your deck or by removing them from your hand.  If you have strong trashing, you don't need Baptismal to get Gold.  I suppose it could still be useful... and it's alright if you're just sifting the Copper away.  But still, that's a lot of work just to have the opportunity to gain a Gold.  It would probably be easier just to get Silver and buy that Gold directly!

Hmm, thinking about it further, I think you may have meant for the hand to be revealed after the discard?  So Baptismal helps itself by helping you discard Copper, making it easier to gain that Gold?  Nowhere on your card does it have the player reveal their hand though.  There are a lot of wording issues.  I'm afraid you are seriously misusing under-the-line text.



Bountiful Harvest looks pretty weak to me.  It is like Tactician, but it will only draw Treasure on the next turn and won't give an extra Action.  So it is Tactician that only helps with a Treasure-based strategy.  Hmm... I suppose in the right set up this could be very strong.  No "if you do" means it stacks very well with TR and KC.  But as with Adventurer, you really need a way to get rid of your starting Copper.  Bountiful Harvest might be OK.  Niche, but OK.  I am not sure.  And I need to go to bed!
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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2013, 06:00:54 pm »
0

Baptismal (revised)
$4 - Action
Trash one Copper or Curse from your hand. If you do:
+ 1 Card
+ 1 Action
If you reveal a hand with no Copper or Curses, gain a Gold.
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Re: Redemption expansion cards - updated
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2013, 08:31:15 pm »
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Baptismal (revised)
$4 - Action
Trash one Copper or Curse from your hand. If you do:
+ 1 Card
+ 1 Action
If you reveal a hand with no Copper or Curses, gain a Gold.

You can't say "If you reveal..." when nothing on the card has told you to reveal your hand (well, I guess you technically can but that part of the card will never activate.)
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