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[werothegreat]

Okay, edge-casers, here's a puzzle.  Is there any situation where you would NOT want to trash a Copper to Moneylender - that is, you'd get more coin or whatever from not trashing that Copper, but you still need to play Moneylender?

[Watno]

Horn of Plenty and it's the only copper in your hand
Horn of Plenty/Menagerie/draw to x and copper is worth at least 4/ you need it for gardens/fairgrounds / you do not want to power up opponents forager

[kn1tt3r]

The question itself puzzles me, since Moneylender has no 'may'.

[DStu]

The question itself puzzles me, since Moneylender has no 'may'.

... but it also doesn't have a "or reveal your hand"

[DStu]

Golem into King's Court+Moneylender with Copper and Coppersmith in hand

[SirPeebles]

Golem into Moneylender when your hand was Golem Copper Bank Bank Bank.

[Awaclus]

In a Colony game: 5 Conspirators, Moneylender and Copper in hand, you have already played 1 Village and no other actions (you drew the extra cards from Caravan or whatever), opponent's hand is Forager, Platinum, Platinum, Curse, Curse, and the trash is empty. You're under PPR for Colonies but since you know your opponent's hand, it's possible to play around it by not trashing your copper.

[Asper]

You are possessing another player who has Crossroads in play, know that the top card of your opponents deck is a Herbalist and need to play Moneylender for Conspirators + 1 card so you can make him play Herbalist and top-deck the Copper, as he's allready hitting 8$ with the Copper, Herbalist, Conspirators and those 2 Harems that made him draw Moneylender and Conspirator when he revealed them with Crossroads on a Province game with an empty Estate pile where you still fear that Herbalist will help his deck more than Copper would.

I'm figuratively out of breath.

[cluckyb]

Your hand is Necropolis Moneylender Moneylender Conspirator Copper. From a duchess, you know your top card is a Market Square. You want to use Necropolis/Moneylender to charge your Conspirator, but you want to trash the Copper with the second Moneylender after the Market Square is in your hand.

[werothegreat]

The question itself puzzles me, since Moneylender has no 'may'.

This is why I asked this in the first place.   If there were to be a Second Edition of Dominion, would it be worth it to put a "you may" on Moneylender, or should it reveal your hand if you have no Copper?

[michaeljb]

I bet it would get "you may" since that's fewer words.

[ancientcampus]

The last copper in a fine-tuned engine with exactly $8 in the deck, not counting moneylender, and which uses watchtower or library for draw. E.g. fishing village, watchtower, moneylender. You want to play the moneylender to make space in your hand, but if you trash that last copper, you'll only have $7 on subsequent turns.

[Morgrim7]

Fairgrounds

[KingZog3]

The question itself puzzles me, since Moneylender has no 'may'.

Just like TR has no "may play an action twice", Moneyleder doesn't because it was in the first set. KC does, only because card wording was more refined in the expansions. So when I play, I consider it to be "may trash a copper".

[popsofctown]

The question itself puzzles me, since Moneylender has no 'may'.

Just like TR has no "may play an action twice", Moneyleder doesn't because it was in the first set. KC does, only because card wording was more refined in the expansions. So when I play, I consider it to be "may trash a copper".

Well, the "may" isn't there on KC for design reasons, iirc, it's there to provide a cheatcheck.  It's not like the card is more interesting with a may.  If you're playing among honest folks you might as well play it as written.

Obviously you're free to do whatever the heck you want, you can have your Thieves stealing treasures to hand if you want.  But there is no "errata" on Throne Room, it is what it is.

I think it's less interesting if you add in a "may", you don't have to fit in another +buy to your HoP engine to get a Copper every turn or what have you.

[jomini]

This is really two fairly independent questions - when do you want to keep a copper rather than net +2 coin and when would you play a dead action. We've done these puzzles to death and here are few highlights:
1. Diversity. There are several reasons to keep your last copper to increase deck diversity - Fairgrounds, Menage odds, Hunting party stack making only 7 next turn, Horn of plenty needing activation with the copper.
2. Card count. Gardens. Pstone. Madman deck (dropping deck size limits how much you can draw from your final few Madmen if you are doing crazy things like Kc x3 -> Upgrade (Fortress -> Cache) x3 -> Madman).
3. Copper has intrinsic value. Apothecary. Bank. Coppersmith. Counting house (you got the Moneylender after he swindled  a potion into it). Fine tuned engine that won't hit 8 next turn. 7 Venture deck.
4. You want to top deck it. Keep Loan from discarding a Plat (need to play Loan for other reasons), want to go Mandarin -> Ironmonger, have other top decking (e.g. Alchemist) that will leave copper on top (e.g. Thief/Swindler/Jester defense). Possession defense.
5. You want to trash the copper with something else or later in the game/turn. Altar. Upgrade in a Highway game. Mine. Have a Market square later in deck you want in hand first.
6. Need something to gift with Masq.
7. You care about handsize. Madman. Cellar. Storeroom. Hamlet activation. Vault/Secret Chamber (e.g. using Chou to draw lots of copper, Cellar to draw everything else, Festival for actions & buys, and Vault for cash).


Why would you play a useless action?
1. You have to - Golem, Throne Room.
2. You want to get rid of it with Procession.
3. Peddler cost.
4. Conspirator activation.
5. Horn of plenty activation.
6. Reducing hand size for limited draw; reducing duplicates for Menage.
7. Removing the card from a reshuffle triggered mid-turn (e.g. Minion).
8. Allowing Shanty town to draw.

Pretty much you can mix and match between these two lists. Pick a reason you really want to play a dead & useless action. Pick a reason why you want to keep copper, then make the needed assumptions about which cards to draw to make the two line up.