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Powerman

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Turn 3
« on: February 25, 2013, 04:48:10 pm »
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Well, now that we can empty the supply on Turn 4, that leads to what we can do on Turn 3.  This isn't simply a puzzle of what's possible, but also what is likely.

1) Hitting a turn 3 Province.
-A) Potential Openings to get this
-B) Likely hood of this opening getting a turn 3 Province
-C) Is getting the turn 3 Province the right play over, say, a turn 3 Gold

[Note:  I do think it would be cool to come up with a list of openings that can hit 8 on turn 3]

2) Hitting a turn 3 Platinum
-A) Potential Openings to get this
-B) Likely hood of this opening getting a turn 3 Platinum

For example, I could say opening Coppersmith / - can hit a turn 3 Province with Coppersmith/ CCCC.  The odds of doing so would be ~7.5%  Whether or not buying a Province here really depends on the rest of the board.
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Galzria

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2013, 04:50:46 pm »
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Baron/Silver

Baron/Silver/Estate/Copper/Copper
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 04:54:10 pm »
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Death Cart / (anything)

DC/Copper/Copper/Copper/(anything)


That also gets your Platinum fairly easily.

DC/C/C/C/C

or if you open DC/Silver

DC/S/C/C/(anything)
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

dondon151

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 05:02:05 pm »
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Envoy/Silver

Draw Envoy/S/C/C/C on turn 3, Envoy draws C/C/C/C/E, you can make $8 if your opponent discards your Copper and $9 if your opponent doesn't fsr.

Library/$2 card or less where the $2 card can be Pawn, Herbalist, Embargo, Secret Chamber, Lighthouse, Duchess, Abandoned Mine, Poor House, or Squire, or Nomad Camp/Library

Everything but Pawn, Lighthouse, and Squire require Necropolis

Draw Library/$2/N/C/C on turn 3, play N, play $2 card (or NC), play Library, drawing 5x C. With SC the turn 3 hand needs to be Library/SC/N/E/E and the Library needs to draw 7x C.

If the $2 card produces $1, you can make $8; producing $2 will make $9. Exception is NC which can only produce $8 because you have to draw an Estate on turn 3 if you open NC/Library.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:16:06 pm by dondon151 »
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liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 05:07:03 pm »
+1

Nomad camp/hamlet/watchtower. Can get $8 and three buys. I know this because CC said so.
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heron

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 05:13:55 pm »
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Province Openings:

Baron/Silver
Coppersmith/X
Death Cart/X
Cache/(Duchess, Embargo)
Council Room/(Copper, Pawn, Lighthouse, Fool's Gold)
Fool's Gold/Fool's Gold
Governor/(Duchess, Embargo)
Nomad Camp/Hamlet/Watchtower  :D
Mystic/(Duchess, Embargo)
Counterfeit/Fool's Gold
Contraband/Duchess, opponent probably won't veto province.
Mining Village/(Card which gives +$2 and is $3 or less, too many to list.)
(Procession, Throne Room)/Poor House

Stretches:

Envoy/(Non-terminal or treasure which gives at least +$1, nice/foolish opponent)
(Laboratory, Hunting Party, Stables, Governor, etc)/Duchess, opponent opens embassy.

As you can see, there are a rather lot of these. There are probably plenty that I did not think of.

Edit: I forgot about necropolis. A lot of these have more options than those shown.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:15:19 pm by heron »
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liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 05:24:37 pm »
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with nomad camp and embassy and necropolis there are a huge number of possibilities. even if you assume solitaire game nomad camp+necropolis is still strong.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 05:33:40 pm »
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CC showed how to get a Colony on Turn 3

Open Coppersmith/Watchtower
Turn 3: Draw Necropolis, Coppersmith, Watchtower and 2 Coppers
Play Necropolis and Coppersmith
Play Watchtower, draw 4 Coppers
Play 6 Coppers, buy Colony
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liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 05:35:39 pm »
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and that's $12! I wonder if 13 is possible... probably is.
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Galzria

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 05:37:26 pm »
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CC showed how to get a Colony on Turn 3

Open Coppersmith/Watchtower
Turn 3: Draw Necropolis, Coppersmith, Watchtower and 2 Coppers
Play Necropolis and Coppersmith
Play Watchtower, draw 4 Coppers
Play 6 Coppers, buy Colony

You could do it with Death Cart/Watchtower as well.

Turn 3: Draw Death Cart, Watchtower, Necropolis, and 2 Coppers
Play Necropolis and Death Cart (trashing Death Cart)
Play Watchtower, draw 4 Coppers
Play 6 Coppers, buy Colony

Watchtower/Necropolis by itself opens up a ton of doors for early turn strategies.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 05:38:19 pm »
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I think we should assume solitaire, because otherwise there's crazy masq./noblebrigand/ambassador/embassy stuff. Of course, that makes envoy and contraband a bit better...
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SirPeebles

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 05:40:10 pm »
+3

Turn 3 Possession:

1)
Beggar/Potion
Potion/Beggar/Copper/Copper/Copper

2)
Watchtower/Ironworks
draw Watchtower/Ironworks/Necropolis/Copper/Copper
play Necropolis
play Ironworks, top deck a Potion, +$1
play Watchtower, draw Potion + 3 Copper.
play Potion and 5 Copper
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:48:59 pm by SirPeebles »
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liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2013, 05:41:23 pm »
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is there anything you can do with the free ruins you get from death cart? I don't think so... I was thinking maybe deathcart-tunnel, survivors discard tunnel gain gold... but you can't draw the gold.
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Donald X.

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2013, 05:57:55 pm »
+3

I think we should assume solitaire, because otherwise there's crazy masq./noblebrigand/ambassador/embassy stuff. Of course, that makes envoy and contraband a bit better...
The question is, can you empty the supply on turn 3 in multiplayer. Six players, you go last, they all open Masq / something and draw both on turn 3, passing down the somethings to you. Your buys are of course still in your deck. So they pass you Procession Procession Procession Fortress Watchtower or some such and well, I'm not figuring that out.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2013, 06:00:23 pm »
+2

I think we should assume solitaire, because otherwise there's crazy masq./noblebrigand/ambassador/embassy stuff. Of course, that makes envoy and contraband a bit better...

I'll open Throne Room/Trade Route while my five opponents open Estate/Duchy, Tunnel/Silk Road, Great Hall/Island, Dame Josephine, and Duke
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liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 06:14:16 pm »
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you can get a colony and a province with that!

if we assume a six player game you can probably go on a monster turn on turn TWO.

you are P6.

Turn 1:

P1 buys noble brigand, causing everyone to shuffle turn 2 and draw the card they bought T1.
P2 and 3 buy masq.
P4-6 buy procession, procession, fortress (or whatever cards you want.)

turn 2:

P2 and 3 play masq, and pass you their card while you pass away overgrown estate and hovel.
You now have Copper, Copper, and any three cards you want that cost less than 6. On turn 2.
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liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2013, 06:17:41 pm »
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you can replace one of those coppers with necropolis if you like. If you make those three cards hamlet, nomad camp, and watchtower you can do it on T3. You can't empty the supply because masquerade and noble brigand took up two kingdom slots.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2013, 06:18:15 pm »
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I think that the biggest obstacle to modifying CC's solution to empty the supply on turn 3 in a six player game would be fitting Masquerade into the kingdom.  I imagine it should be doable though.  At worst, you could take Goons out and lose out on 1000 points or so, unless those +buys were crucial.
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Galzria

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2013, 06:19:56 pm »
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Library/Secret Chamber - Gets Platinum
Turn 3:
Draw Library, Secret Chamber, Overgrown Estate, Hovel, Necropolis
Play Necropolis
Play Secret Chamber (discarding OE & Hovel for $2)
Play Library, drawing 7 Copper
Play 7 Copper, Buy Platinum

Library/Poor House - Gets Platinum
Turn 3:
Draw Library, Poor House, Necropolis, Overgrown Estate, Hovel
Play Necropolis
Play Poor House
Play Library, drawing 5 Copper
Play 5 Copper, buy Platinum

Library/Beggar - Gets Platinum
Turn 3:
Draw Library, Beggar, Necropolis, Copper, Copper
Play Necropolis
Play Library, Drawing 4 Copper
Play Beggar
Play 9 Copper, Buy Platinum

Coppersmith/Beggar - Gets Platinum ($10)
Turn 3:
Draw Coppersmith, Beggar, Necropolis, Copper, Copper
Play Necropolis
Play Beggar
Play Coppersmith
Play 5 Coppers, Buy Platinum

Amongst others...
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

liopoil

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 06:39:39 pm »
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I feel like you should be able to do something crazy on turn 2 with three cards of your choice...
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wuthefwasthat

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 07:12:44 pm »
+3

Well, now that we can empty the supply on Turn 4, that leads to what we can do on Turn 3.  This isn't simply a puzzle of what's possible, but also what is likely.

The question is, can you empty the supply on turn 3 in multiplayer. Six players, you go last, they all open Masq / something and draw both on turn 3, passing down the somethings to you. Your buys are of course still in your deck. So they pass you Procession Procession Procession Fortress Watchtower or some such and well, I'm not figuring that out.

I feel like you should be able to do something crazy on turn 2 with three cards of your choice...

Much of the work has already been done:

With just 2 turns and 6 players, and allowing Outpost, you can empty the Colonies pile. 
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4334.0

With just 3 turns and 3 players, you can probably empty all piles as well, combining CC's ideas with what I had back then. 
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3585.0
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GendoIkari

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 09:47:14 am »
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I think we should assume solitaire, because otherwise there's crazy masq./noblebrigand/ambassador/embassy stuff. Of course, that makes envoy and contraband a bit better...
The question is, can you empty the supply on turn 3 in multiplayer. Six players, you go last, they all open Masq / something and draw both on turn 3, passing down the somethings to you. Your buys are of course still in your deck. So they pass you Procession Procession Procession Fortress Watchtower or some such and well, I'm not figuring that out.

Too bad you limited it to 6 players. I can empty the supply on turn 2 with enough players!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 09:49:08 am »
+4

I think that the biggest obstacle to modifying CC's solution to empty the supply on turn 3 in a six player game would be fitting Masquerade into the kingdom.  I imagine it should be doable though.  At worst, you could take Goons out and lose out on 1000 points or so, unless those +buys were crucial.

Dominion Puzzles: the only place where you'll here the phrase "At worst, you lose out on 1000 points or so."
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jomini

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Re: Turn 3
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 10:26:21 pm »
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There are many more ways to hit Plat like:

Beggar/Draw (even Smithy can work, as long as you net 2 cards)
Beggar/Tr(Prrsn)

Feodum/Watchtower/(Workshop, Armory, Iw):

Nec -> Wshop (gain Feodum, reveal Wt to trash Feodum & top deck silver) -> Wt (draw to SSSCCC)

Develop/Fortress:
Nec -> Develop(Fortress to Wt/Band of Misfits, return Fortress to hand) -> Fortress -> Wt -> Bom (played as Csmith or Death Cart)



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