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Author Topic: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards  (Read 1992 times)

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WilsonWriter

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Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« on: March 05, 2013, 02:21:09 am »
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Here's the link to the set, instead of posting new cards one by one.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151268347341176.1073741828.687061175&type=1&l=72d79bc365
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 02:48:04 am by WilsonWriter »
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enfynet

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 03:17:52 am »
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Can't you just type them as text in one post? Then we can quote and critique as nessccary.
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"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

eHalcyon

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 03:37:16 am »
+2

I've gone ahead and done it, so we can discuss.  It's always nice when someone new comes to post ideas.  Critiques can be harsh, but don't let it be discouraging.  Comments generally mean that people are interested. :)

I wonder if these are older or newer versions of those that have already been posted in the forums.  Newer, I expect?

Sisters of Mercy
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Give a treasure to the player on your left, or reveal a hand with no treasure cards.

Ale House
$5 - Action
Discard a treasure from your hand.
+4 Cards
+1 Action
Put two cards on the bottom of your deck.

Confessor
$2 - Treasure
Worth $1
+2 Actions
---
While this is in play, you may trash up to two Curses.

Crusader
$5 - Action-Attack
+$3
Or trash this.  Each other player reveals his hand and trashes an Attack or Treasure of your choice.  You may gain any Treasure trashed in this way.

Helping Hand
$3 - Action-Victory
Reveal your hand.  If you have no Treasure cards or only one Copper, gain a Gold and put it into your hand.
---
Worth 2VP

Infirmary
$3 - Action-Reaction
Choose one: Draw 2 cards, or trash up to 2 cards.
---
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal and set this aside.  On your next turn, gain any one card costing up to $5 from the Trash, then discard this.

Lady of Learning
$4 - Action
Choose one: Pass one card from your hand to the player on your left; or look at the top 3 cards of your deck, put one into your hand and discard the other two.
+1 Action

Patron of Arts
$5 - Treasure
Worth $0
---
When you buy a card, you may gain a card costing up to $5 that has a different color banner than any cards gained this turn.

Pied Piper
$3 - Action-Attack
+1 Card
+1 Buy
Each other player discards the top card from his deck.  You gain +$1 for each Treasure discarded in this way.

Sculptor
$4 - Action
+$2
Look at the top 4 cards of your deck.  Put two of them into your hand, discard the others.

Shepherd
$5 - Action-Victory
You may reveal any number of Victory cards from your hand; +$1 for each one, including this.
---
Worth 2VP

Sisters of Charity
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a Treasure, or reveal a hand with no Treasures and gain two Silvers.

Cudgel
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
+$2
Each other player draws one card, then chooses one: Discard two cards, trash a Treasure that is not a Copper, or gain a Curse.

Savoyard
$3 - Treasure
Worth $1
---
When this is in play, it is worth an additional $1 for each other Savoyard you have in play.

Inventor
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Trash a card.  Discard a card.  When you do, put 2 Action cards from any supply pile into your hand.  During the clean-up phase, return both cards to supply, even if the card was a Duration or was trashed.  Only 1 Inventor may be played per turn.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 04:14:04 am »
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Sisters of Mercy -- "Give a treasure" is still not clearly defined.  Does the player to your left get the treasure in their hand, or in their discard, or somewhere else?  This action probably warrants an Attack type, though it is strange that it only affects the player to your left.

Ale House -- You need to add either "or reveal a hand with no Treasure" or "If you do" to the first line.

Confessor -- This card doesn't work.  A Treasure with +2 Actions will only be useful in conjunction with Black Market; +Actions are otherwise meaningless because you don't play Treasure until after the Action phase is done.  Also, the "while this is in play" effect does not really make sense as such -- that ability is much more of a "when you play this" effect.  It is oddly specific, and generalizing it would make the card too powerful for $2.

Crusader -- The wording here is not consistent with other Dominion cards.  It should start with "Choose one:" intead.

Helping Hand -- Not sure.  Gut says it is too powerful, but the ability is probably not much easier to trigger than Tunnel.

Infirmary -- For better wording, refer to Steward for an example of a choice giver, Horse Traders for the reaction mechanics, and Graverobber for the trash gaining.  It should go something like:

Quote
Infirmary
$3 Action-Reaction
Choose one: +2 Cards; or trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an Attack card, you may set this aside from your hand.  If you do, then at the start of your next turn, gain a card from the trash costing up to $5 and discard this.

The choices are decent.  It is like Steward, trading the +$2 option for slightly better trashing (you are able to trash just one) and a reaction.

The reaction will be very situational.  Unlike Graverobber or Rogue, Infirmary does not do anything to ensure that there are some desirable cards in the trash.  Also, many games you will not want to use the reaction at all because you would be forced to gain something bad from the trash.  Not to mention it will often be better to save the card to play it instead of discarding it for the reaction.

Lady of Learning -- +1 Action should be at the top of the card; there's no reason for it to come after.  I'm not terribly fond of the assymetry of having only you pass a card to only the player to your left.  It seems much like an Attack.

Patron of Arts -- detailed comments were given in the thread you posted for this card, and it looks like you took my wording suggestion.  This still needs a "While this is in play" clause.

Pied Piper -- blind discard from the top of the deck is not an attack.  Consider Tribute.

Sculptor -- I think this is a $5 effect.  Drawing the best 2 of 4 cards is already pretty good; +$2 on top of that is very strong.

Shepherd -- This is a common idea.  I personally don't like it much, but for no particular reason.  It's probably fine.

Sisters of Charity -- I don't know.  Forcing you to discard a treasure certainly makes it weaker than a regular Village, but then there is the possibility of some Silver gaining.  Granted, that just makes it more likely that you'll have to discard a treasure the next time.

Cudgel -- +2 Cards, +$2 is already quite strong, though it is hard to evaluate.  The attack is pretty weak though.  The discard option will probably be chosen often, especially since it has the "victim" draw a card to start.  Curse gaining might come into effect if Cudgels are chained (similar to Torturer).

Savoyard -- As I read it, it seems to grow exponentially.  1 Savoyard is worth $1, but 2 are worth $4, and 3 are worth $9.  But note that 2 Fool's Gold are worth $5 and 3 FG are still worth $9.  Savoyard only surpasses FG when you have 4 of them, despite costing more and lacking a reaction!

Furthermore, I am not sure if the phrasing works as intended.  First, the usual phrasing is "While this is in play".  More to the point, Treasure usually grants the player coin on play.  You are using [a version of] "while this is in play", which are sort of "passive" effects on cards.  But the coin generation from playing Treasure is more of an active effect.

Inventor -- Again, the stock phrase is "If you do..."

Fundamental problems of this card have alrady been posted in the thread you made for Inventor.  How do you return a card if it has been shuffled into your deck (which is a possibility)?  The play restriction also conflicts with cards like Golem and Throne Room.

For the latter problem, look to Crossroads for a fix -- have it do the desired actions only the first time you play it, but nothing major otherwise.  Then you can play a second or third Inventor.  It just wouldn't be useful.

That said, I don't think there is a good way to make a card that temporarily gains cards from the supply.  Band of Misfits is the working version of this concept.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 12:24:25 pm »
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Quote from: Donald X., on Fool's Gold
The top started out as worth $1 per copy you had, on a version of Ill-Gotten Gains. It needed a tortured wording to have it be that if you played three you got $3 for each, since you play them one at a time. Bill Barksdale suggested having it be $1 and then $4, which was much simpler. It's stronger when you have just two, and weaker when you have more than three, but that all worked out.

Treasures aren't technically "worth" anything while they're in play, they generate coins when you play them, just like Woodcutter does. That is, they can't change value after you play them, while they're in play. You could do something like


Worth $1 for each CARDNAME in play (including this).
--------
While this is in play, when you play another CARDNAME, +$1.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:26:32 pm by Drab Emordnilap »
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zahlman

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 01:55:55 pm »
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Skipping some that had separate threads...

Quote
Confessor
$2 - Treasure
Worth $1
+2 Actions
---
While this is in play, you may trash up to two Curses.

+Action makes no sense on a Treasure card, since it is too late in your turn to do anything with the actions. The only effect this has is to increase the value of Diadem by $2.

You cannot just have "while this is in play, you may" on a card, because the card is constantly in play and its effect triggers indefinitely. Existing cards that have "while this is in play" follow it up immediately with ", when you <do X>" so that there is a set trigger condition. (e.g., Goons gives you VP "while this is in play", but only "when you buy a card").

You presumably want the effect to trigger once for each Confessor you play in your Buy phase. That is spelled "when you play this, you may trash up to two Curses from your hand" (it's important to specify sources and destinations of cards, except for buying and gaining).

Quote
Helping Hand
$3 - Action-Victory
Reveal your hand.  If you have no Treasure cards or only one Copper, gain a Gold and put it into your hand.
---
Worth 2VP

This could be really powerful. I assume you used Tunnel as a reference point for pricing this. I'm not sure that "if you have no Treasure cards or only one Copper" is as hard to arrange as "when you discard this other than during your cleanup phase". Also you're getting the money in hand, which is a huge difference. But then, this is a terminal Action, and when you get that money in hand, you still only have at most $4 in hand. The other obvious comparison is to Explorer; this is much cheaper and also worth VP, but it can't get you Silver and its Gold is harder to get. I can see this doing some interesting things in engines (although it can't be TRd/KCd).

Quote
Patron of Arts
$5 - Treasure
Worth $0
---
When you buy a card, you may gain a card costing up to $5 that has a different color banner than any cards gained this turn.

"Banner colour" is a weird criterion. Usually you talk about card types instead. Also, some cards have multiple colours in the banner. And I have no idea how the card name relates to the card effect.

Quote
Pied Piper
$3 - Action-Attack
+1 Card
+1 Buy
Each other player discards the top card from his deck.  You gain +$1 for each Treasure discarded in this way.

This isn't an Attack, for the same reason Tribute isn't. I suspect it scales too well in multi-player games. Again I have no idea how the card name relates to the card effect. (I kinda expect a card named "Pied Piper" to have an obvious synergy with Rats...)

Quote
Sculptor
$4 - Action
+$2
Look at the top 4 cards of your deck.  Put two of them into your hand, discard the others.

+2 Cards and +$2 is already (a) a not ordinarily done combination; (b) really strong. And this is that, plus some sifting.

During the set design contest, the following card was put forward: "+2 Cards, +$2, Discard 2 cards." It got few votes because it was pretty bland. Its author priced it at $5, and people were talking about how this is actually the proper price for such a card because the effect is very powerful. The combination of coin and sifting is very easy to underestimate; it's huge in BM decks.

Quote
Cudgel
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
+$2
Each other player draws one card, then chooses one: Discard two cards, trash a Treasure that is not a Copper, or gain a Curse.

The vanilla bonus here is quite a lot. See notes on Sculptor. I think that already makes a viable $5 card.

The attack is interesting (like Torturer, but with more options, and with the Curse not going in hand), but the combination is far too much.

Quote
Savoyard
$3 - Treasure
Worth $1
---
When this is in play, it is worth an additional $1 for each other Savoyard you have in play.

So... like Bank, but it only considers other copies of itself, instead of all Treasure. The strange thing is that while Bank is a $7 card, this is actually really really weak; if you line up three of them, then they're still only as good as the three Silvers you could have bought instead. Compared to Fool's Gold, this is dead in the water. And honestly I think Fool's Gold already has this design space pretty well covered. Although, if you made the vanilla bonus $2 and bumped the cost to $5, I might start thinking about it more seriously...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 01:57:12 pm by zahlman »
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AJD

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 02:31:15 pm »
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Quote
Helping Hand
$3 - Action-Victory
Reveal your hand.  If you have no Treasure cards or only one Copper, gain a Gold and put it into your hand.
---
Worth 2VP

This could be really powerful. I assume you used Tunnel as a reference point for pricing this. I'm not sure that "if you have no Treasure cards or only one Copper" is as hard to arrange as "when you discard this other than during your cleanup phase". Also you're getting the money in hand, which is a huge difference. But then, this is a terminal Action, and when you get that money in hand, you still only have at most $4 in hand. The other obvious comparison is to Explorer; this is much cheaper and also worth VP, but it can't get you Silver and its Gold is harder to get. I can see this doing some interesting things in engines (although it can't be TRd/KCd).

Poor House is another good comparison: big reward for having no Treasure in hand. It's better than Poor House in that it gains Gold and it has VP; it's worse than Poor House in that it's more restricted (can't get +$3 for having one Silver, can't get +$2 for having two Treasures, etc.) and in that it doesn't self-synergize (can't easily maintain a Treasure-free deck with this, obviously). So it's a bootstrapping card, rather than a strategy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 04:01:50 pm »
0

Skipping some that had separate threads...
Quote
Savoyard
$3 - Treasure
Worth $1
---
When this is in play, it is worth an additional $1 for each other Savoyard you have in play.

So... like Bank, but it only considers other copies of itself, instead of all Treasure. The strange thing is that while Bank is a $7 card, this is actually really really weak; if you line up three of them, then they're still only as good as the three Silvers you could have bought instead. Compared to Fool's Gold, this is dead in the water. And honestly I think Fool's Gold already has this design space pretty well covered. Although, if you made the vanilla bonus $2 and bumped the cost to $5, I might start thinking about it more seriously...

So if you get 6 of these in play, it's identical to playing 6 Fool's Golds. After that, it becomes better than Fool's Gold... 7 of these is $3 more than 7 Fool's Golds. All 10 is worth $55, whereas all 10 Fool's Golds is "only" worth $37.

And of course Fool's Gold has the benefits of having the Reaction, the ability to work with Counterfeit, and the cost of only $2 instead of $3.
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zahlman

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Re: Redemption: A Set of Expansion Cards
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 08:44:03 am »
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Yep.

... Why wouldn't Savoyard work with Counterfeit though?
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