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[WilsonWriter]

You guys are so good at pointing out ideas, flaws, good points, so here's one more:

[SirPeebles]

What does give a treasure mean?  You really need to be more specific than that.

Also, this appears to be like a Lab that clears Copper out of your deck while flooding your opponent's?  At least Ambassador is terminal, drastically limiting the benefit of amassing them and causing you to build early economy slowly.  This card would just be an utter powerhouse in a treasureless deck.

[LastFootnote]

Wilson, I understand the desire to keep the feedback of your cards separate, but instead of posting 8 threads at once, it'd be nice if you'd posted all these cards in one thread. Especially since you've already said they're from the same fan expansion.

[eHalcyon]

I think this card is too powerful.  It is actually stronger than Laboratory but it only costs $4.

How is it stronger than Lab?  Well, it allows you to remove Copper from your deck AND junk up the player on your left.  Sometimes this will be a disadvantage (possibly after all the Copper is gone), but usually it will be good for you.  By the time it becomes a drawback, you should be able to work around it easily -- have a treasureless deck, or buy/gain extra Copper to fuel SoM.

Hm, actually, I can see how the drawback could actually hurt.  If a treasureless deck isn't possible, it would usually be pretty difficult to keep getting enough Copper to fuel multiple SoM plays every turn.  However, you could just buy a single SoM as a very powerful non-terminal deck-thinner, so it is still too strong.

Mechanically speaking, "give a treasure" is ambiguous.  Does the player "gain" the treasure, or is it like Masquerade?  Does the teasure go into their hand, or their discard, or somewhere else?

[BiggerOil]

This card seems way too overcentralizing. You're going to want one in pretty much every game you play and this card by itself is almost a reason to go engine. If there's virtual coin on the board and some sort of village, it's going to be hard to argue against a strategy centralizing around this card. It wouldn't be too useful in big money, but again, this card makes it an engine game. Unless the other kingdom cards are -really- bad, I can't see much of a reason to ignore it and it would probably be the best $4 card in the game.

[WilsonWriter]

LastFootNote, here's the link to the entire expansion, if that's easier. I won't post and start a new thread, since it now seems that would be just more clutter. Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways.

[LastFootnote]

Uh, not to nitpick, but I don't think you actually posted a link.

[WilsonWriter]

Sorry about that. Here it is:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151268347341176.1073741828.687061175&type=1

[LastFootnote]

Sorry about that. Here it is:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151268347341176.1073741828.687061175&type=1

It seems that the linked album is not publicly viewable.

[Awaclus]

Hm, actually, I can see how the drawback could actually hurt.  If a treasureless deck isn't possible, it would usually be pretty difficult to keep getting enough Copper to fuel multiple SoM plays every turn.

Wouldn't. Your opponent probably buys a lot of these, too, and unlike with Ambassador and Masquerade, the coppers stay in the players' decks as ping pong balls for the rest of the game.

[Asper]

About the card: Even though many new players do not see that, getting rid of your Coppers is a good thing.
Having to gain Coppers is bad (see Mountebank). It lowers the average worth of your cards. To make it a real drawback, i would suggest the card gets discarded rather than removed from your deck.

Maybe a fix for this could be something like:

Sisters of Mercy
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Discard a Treasure. Each other player may gain a copy of that Treasure and put it in his hand.
3$ Action

[RTT]

the card original card is a bit like spice merchant but without the other option and with a attack and reversed(you have to trash the tresure after the draw and if you have non--> profit (Laboratory)

and attacks that just hurt 1 player are difficult.

[SirPeebles]

Hm, actually, I can see how the drawback could actually hurt.  If a treasureless deck isn't possible, it would usually be pretty difficult to keep getting enough Copper to fuel multiple SoM plays every turn.

Wouldn't. Your opponent probably buys a lot of these, too, and unlike with Ambassador and Masquerade, the coppers stay in the players' decks as ping pong balls for the rest of the game.

Ever play a four player Ambassador game? Even if you return 2 Coppers, the net number of Coppers amongst players increases.  In four players, Ambassador can be used to empty kingdom piles in a way completely foreign to those used to two player games. (Reveal a Smithy, return none, pass out three Smithies emptying that third pile)

[GendoIkari]

I think this card is too powerful.  It is actually stronger than Laboratory but it only costs $4.

How is it stronger than Lab?  Well, it allows you to remove Copper from your deck AND junk up the player on your left.  Sometimes this will be a disadvantage (possibly after all the Copper is gone), but usually it will be good for you.  By the time it becomes a drawback, you should be able to work around it easily -- have a treasureless deck, or buy/gain extra Copper to fuel SoM.

Hm, actually, I can see how the drawback could actually hurt.  If a treasureless deck isn't possible, it would usually be pretty difficult to keep getting enough Copper to fuel multiple SoM plays every turn.  However, you could just buy a single SoM as a very powerful non-terminal deck-thinner, so it is still too strong.

Mechanically speaking, "give a treasure" is ambiguous.  Does the player "gain" the treasure, or is it like Masquerade?  Does the teasure go into their hand, or their discard, or somewhere else?

I definitely agree that this is often more powerful than a lab. However, it doesn't make any sense to buy Coppers to fuel SoM... the turn that you play this, if you actually do give a Copper, then you haven't just played a lab... you've played a cantrip with extra cycling. Your handsize will NOT increase. So it's only advantageous if you're using it to thin out your deck, or to hurt the other player. Buying Coppers just to allow you to play SoM more means that playing SoM doesn't improve your deck OR your turn.

*Edit* RTT actually makes a good point, and similar to what I was saying... this is more like Spice Merchant than Lab.

[SirPeebles]

I'm still interested in my first question.  What does give a Treasure mean?  If the Copper is added directly to your opponent's hand, then if they play a Sisters of Mercy they will get rid of that Copper and have a six card hand.  In fact, if both players (in a two player game) consistently play Sisters of Mercy, then there is no Copper thinning; instead, both players consistently have six card hands.  Playing multiple Sisters of Mercy would result in even more bloated hand sizes.

[Asper]

Whether or not the player gains the Treasure or gets it passed to as with Masquerade is not my major concern.
In any case, it obviously is thought of as a drawback to make the card cost 4$ instead of 5$. As RTT pointed out, Spice Trader Merchant does a similar thing - with the difference that the trashing happens before the drawing, and that this one has no "if you do clause". It still seems more of an attack to me, and stronger than Spice Merchant - especially on boards with nonterminal coin.

What really itchs me about the card is its asymmetry. No matter if it was thought as an attack or a benefit, only one player will have it. If we cannot have directed attacks, we should not have directed benefits. And that's why the version i gave works the way it does. Probably it would work with trashing, too - i might have been to fast, there.

[GendoIkari]

As RTT pointed out, Spice Trader does a similar thing

Spice Trader
Action-Reaction $4

You may trash a treasure from your hand. If you do, +2 cards +1 action and gain a number of Silvers equal to its cost in coins.
---------
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, gain a Silver instead.

[Asper]

As RTT pointed out, Spice Trader does a similar thing

Spice Trader
Action-Reaction $4

You may trash a treasure from your hand. If you do, +2 cards +1 action and gain a number of Silvers equal to its cost in coins.
---------
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, gain a Silver instead.