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Author Topic: The Combo Deck  (Read 15619 times)

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jomini

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2013, 01:18:54 pm »
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Another way to articulate why I don't think we should be calling this deck type the Combo Deck is to point to the Golden Deck as an example.  What's the combo?  Bishop + Gold + Silver?  There are a heck of a lot of things you can substitute for the Gold or the Silver in that combo.  The distinguishing feature of this deck isn't the combination of Bishop with specific other cards, but the use of the Bishop to tightly regulate the composition of your deck and ignore the usual slowdown from buying victory cards.

The combo is Bishop/Chapel. There really isn't much you can substitute for chapel. Maybe steward, but it gets so much worse.

There is a lot that can substitute. Yeah, Chap/Bish is blindingly fast, but other options can still be dominant on a given board. Lookout/Bish is nearly as fast as Chap/Bish. Things like Steward, Upgrade, Lookout and Loan all can hit the golden deck about 3 or so turns later than Chapel. Yeah, they aren't dominant as often, but on some weaker boards they can beat out all the other options. A lucky Mint (e.g. open Bish/Silver, hit 5 copper on T3 with Mint) can make me swap from a Bishop -> Engine strategy to Bishop -> Pure Golden deck strategy. Likewise, the other stuff can work with support cards (e.g. Lab) to hit a golden combo even in the face of crippling attacks (e.g. Ghost ship). Another thing to remember is that if you want to play the long game, you can just Bishop gold. Things that quickly bang out 4 provinces often stall hard on the last 4 and Bishing gold lets you play the long game.

Dark ages also has several things that substitute really well when I've tried them - Fortress is just insane, get 12 VP per turn (or more if there is draw out). Count works quite well on a 5/2 opening and I think is viable even with a T3 or T4 purchase. Rats with village tends to make for a very fun Golden Rats setup (and Bishing the Rats gives just as many VP as buying the Provs). I've played around with Junk Dealer, Market Square, and Forager; all have possibilities near the Steward threshold.

With support cards (e.g. Lab), weak boards, or both, a lot of other options open up besides just Chapel.

If the combo is just play the same hand every turn and use Bishop to trash stuff for points.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2013, 05:06:14 pm »
+1

Lookout/Bish is nearly as fast as Chap/Bish.

I find this very hard to believe.
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jomini

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2013, 01:23:50 pm »
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Lookout/Bish is nearly as fast as Chap/Bish.

I find this very hard to believe.

It is highly dependent on luck, but yes it can setup within a turn of Chap/Bish. The big keys are:

1. You have to hit a 4/3 on the opening, unlike Chap/Bish.
2. You cannot have either of your key cards miss the first shuffle (an odds off bet, having the Bish miss a shuffle pushes most likely pushes you back a turn).
3. Do not buy silvers until later, you need to cycle faster (Lookout letting you cycle through 2 additional cards is non-trivial as is the slowdown from early silver buys).
4. An opponent Bish helps close the gap. Unlike in Chap/Bish where most of the time you either are going to Chap everything  anyways or where you can't afford to pitch a card because you are already down to a 5 card hand, Lookout/Bish can use the extra trashing to get within a turn of Chap/Bish.

Yeah, it is not as reliable and yeah it is not quite as quick (about 2 turns slower without an opponent's Bish), but you can normally setup a Gold trashing Golden deck on T10 and pound out 4 VP per turn after that. That gives you 9 turns of 4 VP and 1 turn of 7 VP against something like BM-Smithy, which is a win. Against things slower than Bm-Smithy, you can go for a traditional province trashing deck; even against BM-Smithy you can often play a traditional Golden deck if you Bish your estates during setup and/or the opponent can't make good use of your early Bishop plays; also it helps a lot to be P1.

I've played around with buying additional Lookouts in solo play and very rarely that can get you down to 10 turns to setup a classic golden deck, but variance gets even higher.

Like I say it can be nearly as fast and a lucky Lookout/Bish can beat an unlucky Bish/Chap.
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Powerman

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2013, 05:07:23 pm »
+1

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Razzishi

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2013, 07:53:55 pm »
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This isn't a coherent archetype at all.  There's 3 different VP strategies in the example list.

1) The Native Village/Bridge deck is a mega-turn engine deck.  It doesn't have the interchangeable parts of a deck-drawing engine, but it still looks to build up its deck and make all the green buys in one fell swoop.

2) Chancellor(or Scavenger)/Stash, The Golden Deck, Counting House/Golem, Tactician/Vault, and Apothecary/Native Village deck are all ways of controlling for the green that enters into your deck that is reliant on a particular interaction between cards.  These are engines designed to buy one province a turn forever.

3) Deck Deletion Pin decks don't worry about buying green cards; they force the opponent to a helpless position where the pinner can win however they want to.

These are 3 very different things, and don't belong in the same archetype.  You can force (1) and (3) into the engine archetype by changing its definition into one that builds up its deck to the point where it just wins (either by buying enough green or forcing the opponent to be unable to play anymore) then leave (2) as the "combo" archetype.  Yes, most deck-drawing engines will not win on the spot, but not all examples of an archetype are pure.  For the mentioned combos: The Golden Deck has absolute inevitability for a Province buy; Tactician/Vault, Scavenger/Stash, and Apothecary/Native Village has very high probability for a Province buy; and Chancellor/Stash and Golem/Counting House are more like slogs that manage to "cheat" their way into Province money more than they seem like they should from the individual components.

This makes the breakdown of the pure archetypes much clearer based on their approach to victory:

Engine: ignores green cards until it can win. 
Rush: buys cheap VP quickly.
Slog: generates whatever VP it can over a long period of time.
Money: buys Provinces one at a time quickly and simply, often missing the target.
Combo: buys Provinces one at a time in a slightly complicated fashion that nearly guarantees a purchase.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:22:29 pm by Razzishi »
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jomini

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2013, 11:57:45 am »
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This isn't a coherent archetype at all.  There's 3 different VP strategies in the example list.

1) The Native Village/Bridge deck is a mega-turn engine deck.  It doesn't have the interchangeable parts of a deck-drawing engine, but it still looks to build up its deck and make all the green buys in one fell swoop.

2) Chancellor(or Scavenger)/Stash, The Golden Deck, Counting House/Golem, Tactician/Vault, and Apothecary/Native Village deck are all ways of controlling for the green that enters into your deck that is reliant on a particular interaction between cards.  These are engines designed to buy one province a turn forever.

3) Deck Deletion Pin decks don't worry about buying green cards; they force the opponent to a helpless position where the pinner can win however they want to.

These are 3 very different things, and don't belong in the same archetype.  You can force (1) and (3) into the engine archetype by changing its definition into one that builds up its deck to the point where it just wins (either by buying enough green or forcing the opponent to be unable to play anymore) then leave (2) as the "combo" archetype.  Yes, most deck-drawing engines will not win on the spot, but not all examples of an archetype are pure.  For the mentioned combos: The Golden Deck has absolute inevitability for a Province buy; Tactician/Vault, Scavenger/Stash, and Apothecary/Native Village has very high probability for a Province buy; and Chancellor/Stash and Golem/Counting House are more like slogs that manage to "cheat" their way into Province money more than they seem like they should from the individual components.

This makes the breakdown of the pure archetypes much clearer based on their approach to victory:

Engine: ignores green cards until it can win. 
Rush: buys cheap VP quickly.
Slog: generates whatever VP it can over a long period of time.
Money: buys Provinces one at a time quickly and simply, often missing the target.
Combo: buys Provinces one at a time in a slightly complicated fashion that nearly guarantees a purchase.



Except that there are many, many other combos out there. Take Hermit/Market Square; you can build it up to snap up all the provinces in one go ... or you can setup to buy say 3 prov and have a stacked deck full of golds for then next 2 prov buys. Is that an "engine", not in my books, the Madman are completely dead until you play the combo and sure doesn't play like an engine. And that to me is the big point about classification schema, they don't exist to be pretty they exist to inform people how stuff plays out. But even if we follow your taxonomy, we end up with combos that don't fit.

Take Kc/Scheme/Count; you can either buy a province a turn and not care (+3 coin, gain a  copper, buy a province) - but it also works better with many other alt-VP. Even in a Prov setup, you still will gain a lot of points from Duchy, often nearly as many from Provs. Gardens - gain at least copper/Garden each turn, many turns gain a copper/Garden/Duchy. Dukes - double Duchy turns or Duchy/Duke turns aren't uncommon, this can handily beat some Prov strats. Fairgrounds is also a strong setup - you can often grab a Fairgrounds/Duchy or Unique Card/Duchy.

Fairgrounds, in general, is a godsend to top deck control decks. Yeah you need to spend some time bulking them up, but Kc/Scheme decks are slow to setup and a "second stack of provinces" is just huge.

Other setups, like say Golem/Scavenger/Herbalist/Pstone. Likewise can do things other than grab a single province. When you first hit the combo, you likely can only buy Duchy/Copper. Soon you can buy Province and if the game goes long enough Province/Estate, Province/Duchy, or Province/Province. Again, this is a very Alt-VP friendly combo with Gardens, Fairgrounds (you have 5 kingdom cards, 4 treasures, 3 VP cards, and curse allowing you to wait till your penultimate turn to break the combo get up to 15 unique cards), Duke (quick double Duchy turns if your opponent goes provinces), and maybe even Feodum (never tried it, but gaining Feodum/Silver every turn works in a long enough game).

Or take the Golden deck - some variants, like say Rats or Fortress, don't buy provinces; Fortress in particular scores massively more points if you skip the Provinces. Others, like Kc/Kc/Explorer/Bish/Prov get their points from trashing multiple golds or other gained cards. Even the simple setup of Bish/Money may not be best served by entering the province race. Take something like Lookout/Bish on a slow-ish board. You setup 2 turns slower than Chap/Bish so your opponent may be able to split the provinces 4/4 and win. However, if they go money, you can often drag out the game by Bishing Gold and buying the last province around turn 20.

Other combos - like Possession/Amb have nothing in common at all with other combos. You trash down your deck, Amb over an Amb if needed, and then Possess your opponent. You then Amb his strongest cards (Possession, Prov, Colony) back to you and destroy his deck. With thin enough decks, enough plays of Possession (Tr/Kc, etc.), or enough opponent draw (e.g. Gov) this is pretty much an auto-win as soon as you pull it off. You may truly have zero draw and you may not have perfect odds of winning once you pull the trigger ... but you have high odds of swinging the game and nerfing your opponent. Take an ultra-lean deck of Kc/Kc/Possession/Amb/Amb/Cr. You send over 3 Ambassadors, get 3 Possession turns, and hopefully you get the first hand with 8 cards. You aren't buying provinces (just stealing them), you opponent might still be able to win (if it takes too long to setup), and you don't have any of the normal engine components (draw, cash, etc.)

And this is the real point of the "Combo" category. You can get points from buying a single province, you can get points from VP chips (e.g. Kc/Kc/Monument/Monument/Trasher), you can get points from Alt-VP, you get points from gaining Colonies (e.g. Nv/Peddler/Expand/Nv), you can get points by stealing from your opponent ... the big thing is that these setups play weird. You may spend many turns buying nothing (or just cantrips) - that's not engine and that doesn't mean buying provinces; you may grab the entire province pile in a turn or you may not touch it the entire game.

And let's be honest a LOT of combos play closer to engine than to Money. Many combos like trashing, money rarely does. Many combos don't, you know, buy money. Most combos are weaker against discard attacks, unlike money decks. Taxonomy should be functional - how do I play this thing, rather than pretty.
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Razzishi

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2013, 11:38:44 pm »
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The problem with my first post is that I failed to mention that I was basically redefining everything so that my classification actually worked as intended, but in the end it really didn't tell you anything.  The taxonomy based on disposition towards victory point accumulation method works perfectly if you use the labels in the way there are in my mind, but it doesn't tell you anything you don't already know nor which are actually similar to each other. So I admit it's not very useful to anyone else. 

I'll write more on this subject later, I have to go to bed and can't really decide how much to write right now.
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