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Kirian

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Education
« on: February 11, 2013, 03:33:16 pm »
0

EDIT: Is this not a concept that is taught in middle school anymore? I run into this a lot these days.

Don't you know, we only teach reading and math in schools now.  At least in the US.

I'm only half joking.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Education
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 04:37:03 pm »
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EDIT: Is this not a concept that is taught in middle school anymore? I run into this a lot these days.

Don't you know, we only teach reading and math in schools now.  At least in the US.

I'm only half joking.

Looking at my 11 year old's curriculum:
Math (year round, good)
Reading (year round, good)
Social Studies (year round, ugh)
Choir (year round, WTF?)
Science (1/2 year, WTF?)
Gym (1/2 year, good)

With as subjective and political as Social Studies is, I would much rather see Science take a half of that year. Or maybe add in History as the objective counter part to Social Studies.
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Re: Education
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 04:38:18 pm »
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The fact I'm learning programming right now in a public school in the US proves you wrong. I also have Choir as a possibility.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Education
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 04:51:42 pm »
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The fact I'm learning programming right now in a public school in the US proves you wrong. I also have Choir as a possibility.

I had programming as an option in HS. I wish I had been interested in it then. I think my kids middle school program is crap though. On a side note, I had his choir teacher way back when for choir too.
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Kirian

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Re: Education
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 04:56:14 pm »
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The fact I'm learning programming right now in a public school in the US proves you wrong. I also have Choir as a possibility.

Like I said, half joking.  There was a reason I chose middle school, though it applies more to elementary schools than middle schools.  Obviously high school students branch out, but they're woefully underprepared for most science courses thanks to the "teach to the test" mentality they dealt with in lower grades.  And that mentality is pretty rampant, especially in inner-city schools.  I have a friend, a first-grade teacher, who literally has been told she can't teach anything other than reading and math due to her school's performance.

Students coming into my ninth-grade science classroom had low math skills and mediocre reading skills.  Learning science was worse than simply difficult for them; not only had their previous science experiences been useless, their math and reading skills were low, both thanks to the teaching to the test mentality.  It's a vicious cycle, and it now stretches all the way into college classes, where my freshmen also have started coming in unprepared.
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Re: Education
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 05:28:31 pm »
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Interesting. Where I am learning we don't seem to have that problem. There are those that struggle with either math or reading, but mostly the problem is with math. (Personally, I don't struggle at all with either. I'm just that kid that learns almost everything pretty well but can't get himself to do his HW at home T.T)
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Kirian

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Re: Education
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 05:40:57 pm »
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Interesting. Where I am learning we don't seem to have that problem. There are those that struggle with either math or reading, but mostly the problem is with math. (Personally, I don't struggle at all with either. I'm just that kid that learns almost everything pretty well but can't get himself to do his HW at home T.T)

Don't worry, I was that kid too.  I just did my Calc homework during Physics and my Physics homework during Calc.  And of course there are differences between different school districts, depending on the affluence of the community.
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Re: Education
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 06:36:32 pm »
+2

Like I said, half joking.  There was a reason I chose middle school, though it applies more to elementary schools than middle schools.  Obviously high school students branch out, but they're woefully underprepared for most science courses thanks to the "teach to the test" mentality they dealt with in lower grades.  And that mentality is pretty rampant, especially in inner-city schools.  I have a friend, a first-grade teacher, who literally has been told she can't teach anything other than reading and math due to her school's performance.

Students coming into my ninth-grade science classroom had low math skills and mediocre reading skills.  Learning science was worse than simply difficult for them; not only had their previous science experiences been useless, their math and reading skills were low, both thanks to the teaching to the test mentality.  It's a vicious cycle, and it now stretches all the way into college classes, where my freshmen also have started coming in unprepared.
I am really just quoting this because I am pleased the topic shifted.

It always seems to me that lower grades are really just about daycare and learning social skills. My kids aren't quite in the system yet though.
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werothegreat

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Re: Education
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 07:07:14 pm »
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Like I said, half joking.  There was a reason I chose middle school, though it applies more to elementary schools than middle schools.  Obviously high school students branch out, but they're woefully underprepared for most science courses thanks to the "teach to the test" mentality they dealt with in lower grades.  And that mentality is pretty rampant, especially in inner-city schools.  I have a friend, a first-grade teacher, who literally has been told she can't teach anything other than reading and math due to her school's performance.

Students coming into my ninth-grade science classroom had low math skills and mediocre reading skills.  Learning science was worse than simply difficult for them; not only had their previous science experiences been useless, their math and reading skills were low, both thanks to the teaching to the test mentality.  It's a vicious cycle, and it now stretches all the way into college classes, where my freshmen also have started coming in unprepared.
I am really just quoting this because I am pleased the topic shifted.

It always seems to me that lower grades are really just about daycare and learning social skills. My kids aren't quite in the system yet though.

Relevant - I wrote this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11AA0-Vwd_ufhcghfgA8tBUaAsDUvCUDUTtkMkBkNfy0/edit
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Kirian

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Re: Education
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 09:29:30 pm »
+3

Like I said, half joking.  There was a reason I chose middle school, though it applies more to elementary schools than middle schools.  Obviously high school students branch out, but they're woefully underprepared for most science courses thanks to the "teach to the test" mentality they dealt with in lower grades.  And that mentality is pretty rampant, especially in inner-city schools.  I have a friend, a first-grade teacher, who literally has been told she can't teach anything other than reading and math due to her school's performance.

Students coming into my ninth-grade science classroom had low math skills and mediocre reading skills.  Learning science was worse than simply difficult for them; not only had their previous science experiences been useless, their math and reading skills were low, both thanks to the teaching to the test mentality.  It's a vicious cycle, and it now stretches all the way into college classes, where my freshmen also have started coming in unprepared.
I am really just quoting this because I am pleased the topic shifted.

It always seems to me that lower grades are really just about daycare and learning social skills. My kids aren't quite in the system yet though.

Alas, in days gone by, which is to say before the mid-1990s, elementary students did all sorts of things other than just spelling, math, and day care.  I'm sure you remember this, of course.  :)  I hope that your kids end up in a better-than-average school system.

Relevant - I wrote this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11AA0-Vwd_ufhcghfgA8tBUaAsDUvCUDUTtkMkBkNfy0/edit

"Only the most advanced high school students take calculus and physics, and that during their final year."

"We need to push math forward to the point where calculus will be taught across the board in at least the sophomore year of high school, though freshman year would be better."

"The second year of physics would cover nuclear physics, quantum mechanics and relativity."

.... um.  So.  Um.  Yeah.  Where to begin?

I'm thrilled at your idealism.  Really.  And I hope you go on to become a physicist/EE/programmer/what-have-you.  But I can tell you haven't considered developmental psychology as a career.

It's an understatement to say that most students are not equipped to handle calculus at 15 years old, or nuclear physics and QM at 17.  These are classes that only about--respectively--10% and 0.1% of college students take.  Those are, again, people who are already in college.  (For reference, my second year of college physics, i.e., QM, atomic and nuclear mechanics, had 12 students at a school of 20000.)

To make this less of an understatement:  I hate to say it, but most people aren't equipped to handle calculus at any age.  And most people won't need to, ever.  (Hell, after four semesters of calculus and differential equations, I haven't used most of it since undergrad, and all my jobs have been scientific or academic in nature.)

One doesn't need to understand QM to program a computer, nor does one need to know how to program a computer in order to use a computer.  One need not understand general relativity to use GPS.  In fact, I know academics for whom GPS and computer analysis is a vital part of their work who, nonetheless, could likely not explain to you why GPS satellites have to account for relativity, nor how QM makes modern computers possible (or even explain how a transistor works), nor program their own computer software.  I'll leave it to you to figure out what academic and practical disciplines this applies to; I can think of three from the top of my head, I'm sure there's more.

When Newton and Galileo were working, those who did science were able to know everything there was to know in the scientific literature.  That's how little we knew.  This is no longer the case; we now teach top high school students about the same body of knowledge that Galileo would have had.  College students, obviously, go beyond that.  But the average high school student doesn't need all of it.

What they do need--what we need to be teaching to all high school students, and no longer do--is critical thinking.  Now, this can be introduced in the form of problems related to the disciplines we spend so much time teaching them, and that's good, but it doesn't go far enough.

But at the high school level, the students I was teaching were expected to be able to demonstrate knowledge X, Y, and Z on a standardized multiple-choice exam.  There was no time to spend two months developing critical thinking skills because we focused on the very lowest levels of Bloom's taxonomy.  That is the travesty of education in the US.  Not that we don't teach enough [science|history|math|literature], but that we teach too much at the knowledge and comprehension levels and very little at even the application level, much less higher levels.  Teachers are expected to make sure the students can regurgitate information onto a standardized test, when what's important for society is not whether a student knows (as an example) the quantum mechanical properties of the hydrogen atom, but whether a student, given the bulk physical and chemical properties of hydrogen, can explain what happened to the LZ Hindenburg.

And now I've gone off on another rant about education.  Back to work, I have a three-hour lecture on gas laws to give on Thursday.
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Re: Education
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 10:22:12 pm »
0

Just curious, as I am a high school student, is there anything you feel that a high school student can do to improve their critical thinking skills? As I am strongly considering programming as a possible career(Taking an AP class in C next year after finishing this year!), I would love to be able to improve my critical thinking skills.
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Re: Education
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 11:35:51 pm »
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There was no time to spend two months developing critical thinking skills because we focused on the very lowest levels of Bloom's taxonomy.  That is the travesty of education in the US.  Not that we don't teach enough [science|history|math|literature], but that we teach too much at the knowledge and comprehension levels and very little at even the application level, much less higher levels.

Plus one for this.

But while it's easy to rant about standardized testing, there is no denying that it won't go away -- it's cheap, easy, and effective monitoring of progress. Even for elementary grades. In some cases the problem is that the tests don't test what we want them to test and school curriculum is not what we really want to teach ("trivia" versus thinking/creativity). But standardized tests do shine lights on schools which are atrocious but no one wants to admit exist and students who have fallen behind but whom we push through the system anyway. We say how bad teaching to the test is, but what does it say about teachers and schools that "teach to the test" all year yet have most of their third grade students fail on questions like:

Which has the same product as 3 X 4?
A) 2 X 6
B) 7 X 2
C) 4 X 6
D) 3 X 5

What counting number comes right after 539?
A) 530
B) 538
C) 540
D) 541

(These are actual representative sample questions from a 3rd grade test required by No Child Left Behind).
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Re: Education
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 12:05:14 am »
+1

Just curious, as I am a high school student, is there anything you feel that a high school student can do to improve their critical thinking skills? As I am strongly considering programming as a possible career(Taking an AP class in C next year after finishing this year!), I would love to be able to improve my critical thinking skills.

Here's my best bit of advice: Read with a pencil in hand (annotated reading/active reading). Thinking critically requires constant questioning (Why does the author/do I think this is true? Is he/Am I right? How could he/I be wrong here? What assumptions is he/am I making and are they correct? Are there other explanations that may be better? ...).
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Re: Education
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 12:05:43 am »
+2

I never really understood the "teach to the test" criticism.  What is the alternative to "teaching to the test"?  Teaching a subject in such a way that students can't demonstrate proficiency? 

A well-designed test (SAT Math is a good example) makes it so that teaching to the test is equivalent to teaching the subject.  You cannot do well on the SAT Math without actually being good at math.  In this respect NCLB gets it right -- you shouldn't be able to mask your terrible teaching with unstandardized, unrigorous, and arbitrarily graded tests of your own design.  If your students can't demonstrate basic proficiency you are doing something wrong. 

From a Bayesian perspective, if your students fail standardized tests, it's a lot more likely that you're a crap teacher, rather than you're some genius teacher who somehow still can't get his kids to demonstrate basic proficiency.
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Re: Education
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 12:17:23 am »
+4

Just curious, as I am a high school student, is there anything you feel that a high school student can do to improve their critical thinking skills? As I am strongly considering programming as a possible career(Taking an AP class in C next year after finishing this year!), I would love to be able to improve my critical thinking skills.

Here's my best bit of advice: Read with a pencil in hand (annotated reading/active reading). Thinking critically requires constant questioning (Why does the author/do I think this is true? Is he/Am I right? How could he/I be wrong here? What assumptions is he/am I making and are they correct? Are there other explanations that may be better? ...).

To expand on this subject -- near and dear to lawyers' hearts -- you should develop a habit of skepticism.  I don't mean skepticism as in, become a 9/11 truther: I mean skepticism in thinking about the motivations of your speaker, the likelihood of competing scenarios, and what you should believe.  Try to see both sides of the issue -- there almost always is one, and it's not just "xxx is evil and greedy".

Here's an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/new-yorkers-outraged-bureaucrats-order-city-change-lettering-single-street-sign-article-1.443695

If you read the first few paragraphs, you might get your pitchforks ready.  WTF, stupid bureaucrats, why are they forcing NY to pay $27M to change the font on signs?  How dumb, this is a sign of how dysfunctional BigGov is.

Exercise your critical thinking skills.  Is this what is really happening?  What's the actual likelihood that the DOT would arbitrarily decide that NYC has to change all its street signs all of a sudden?  Wouldn't the more logical thing be to just say, "When you replace these signs anyway, because of wear and tear, use these new ones instead of those old ones."

And as you read on, you realize that buried deep in the article, this is the actual plan, and the article concedes that there is no actual cost to NYC to doing this.

Another example: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/19/bloomberg-strikes-again-nyc-bans-food-donations-to-the-homeless/

See if you can figure out for yourself why this is a stupidly sensationalistic article.  Note, for example, how the links provided don't back up the assertions at all, and how you have to do your own research to see that the article's thesis (that Bloomberg is banning food donations to the homeless because they can't assess their nutritional content) is something made up by the author, when the real reason (because it's goddamn unsafe to just dump unsanitary leftovers at a homeless shelter) goes entirely unmentioned.  Note the tone that the author takes, to deliberately try to goad you into outrage, and don't fall for it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Education
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 12:47:58 am »
0

There was no time to spend two months developing critical thinking skills because we focused on the very lowest levels of Bloom's taxonomy.  That is the travesty of education in the US.  Not that we don't teach enough [science|history|math|literature], but that we teach too much at the knowledge and comprehension levels and very little at even the application level, much less higher levels.

Plus one for this.

But while it's easy to rant about standardized testing, there is no denying that it won't go away -- it's cheap, easy, and effective monitoring of progress. Even for elementary grades. In some cases the problem is that the tests don't test what we want them to test and school curriculum is not what we really want to teach ("trivia" versus thinking/creativity). But standardized tests do shine lights on schools which are atrocious but no one wants to admit exist and students who have fallen behind but whom we push through the system anyway. We say how bad teaching to the test is, but what does it say about teachers and schools that "teach to the test" all year yet have most of their third grade students fail on questions like:

Which has the same product as 3 X 4?
A) 2 X 6
B) 7 X 2
C) 4 X 6
D) 3 X 5

What counting number comes right after 539?
A) 530
B) 538
C) 540
D) 541

(These are actual representative sample questions from a 3rd grade test required by No Child Left Behind).

OK, so the first one might require kids to multiply five pairs of numbers, and that might be daunting to some.  But how do kids get the second one wrong?  Is there some arcane definition of "counting number"?  The answer is 540, right?  Isn't it obvious, or is there some trick I'm missing?  ???
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dondon151

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Re: Education
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 02:22:15 am »
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OK, so the first one might require kids to multiply five pairs of numbers, and that might be daunting to some.  But how do kids get the second one wrong?  Is there some arcane definition of "counting number"?  The answer is 540, right?  Isn't it obvious, or is there some trick I'm missing?  ???

Depends on your definition of "right" ;)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Education
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 02:46:11 am »
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OK, so the first one might require kids to multiply five pairs of numbers, and that might be daunting to some.  But how do kids get the second one wrong?  Is there some arcane definition of "counting number"?  The answer is 540, right?  Isn't it obvious, or is there some trick I'm missing?  ???

Depends on your definition of "right" ;)

...do most grade 3 kids have trouble counting with 3 digits?
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Re: Education
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 02:52:13 am »
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I never really understood the "teach to the test" criticism.  What is the alternative to "teaching to the test"?  Teaching a subject in such a way that students can't demonstrate proficiency? 

Focusing on the subject matter rather than the method of evaluation.

Fundamentally, it's because "how easy is this to evaluate" is NOT  a useful metric for deciding whether something should be taught. The stuff that goes on standardized tests is dictated as much by the format as it is by the curriculuim. Take your own example of the SAT math. It gives a bit over a minute per question. So that means all skills that are difficult to evaluate in a minute of a student's time simply get discarded. Since they're not going to be tested, they're not going to be taught.

Are you really saying that there are no math skills worth teaching to high school students that can't be boiled down to a one-minute multiple choice question?
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dondon151

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Re: Education
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 02:53:26 am »
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...do most grade 3 kids have trouble counting with 3 digits?

I write my numbers right to left, so 540 is actually the number left after 539.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Education
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 04:22:01 am »
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...do most grade 3 kids have trouble counting with 3 digits?

I write my numbers right to left, so 540 is actually the number left after 539.

I get your joke but I am still looking for a serious answer.  :P
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Re: Education
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 06:30:46 am »
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It's an understatement to say that most students are not equipped to handle calculus at 15 years old, or nuclear physics and QM at 17.  These are classes that only about--respectively--10% and 0.1% of college students take.  Those are, again, people who are already in college.
I was quite surprised about this. In Finland all high school students study calculus, somewhere between age 15-17. One can choose either "short" or "long" maths curriculum and the former only goes as far as differential calculus, but nevertheless everyone at least touches the subject and more than half choose the long curriculum. And that's for a country that to my knowledge has a bit less focus on maths compared to many other European countries, though admittedly for one that seems to shine in international comparisons for education in general (despite actually having the kids spend less time on studies).

US students seem to fail particularly in maths.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 06:33:00 am by Ratsia »
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Re: Education
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 06:53:29 am »
0

Looking at my 11 year old's curriculum:
Math (year round, good)
Reading (year round, good)
Social Studies (year round, ugh)
Choir (year round, WTF?)
Science (1/2 year, WTF?)
Gym (1/2 year, good)
"Science"? There's actually a school subject called "science"? :o I thought it was used to refer to various subjects.

Here, 11-year-old kids learn subjects such as mother tongue & literature, English, math, history, biology, geography, physics, chemistry, handcraft, music, visual arts, gym and either religion or ethics (parents' choice). Additionally, most schools offer some optional subjects such as French, German, electronic data processing, optional music, optional visual arts, optional gym, etc. and usually it is required to choose some, but not all of these.

Sorry for off-topic, I was so shocked that I couldn't resist posting.
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Re: Education
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 08:27:32 am »
+3

"Math" and "Social studies" each refer to vast arrays of subjects.  Such a broadly named course would be an overview, which is what one might expect for an 11 year old.  A little bit of of geology about plate tectonics or how rocks form, then a little bit of ecology or talking about the cell theory of life, then maybe a unit on the sun, moon, and planets.
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Re: Education
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 09:49:20 am »
+1

...do most grade 3 kids have trouble counting with 3 digits?

No. Most third graders don't have problems multiplying, either. The issue is that the problems tend to be localized and concentrated in certain schools and districts. Problems compound over the course of students' careers and these easy questions are actually hard enough to identify problem schools. Standardized tests in the US are designed to identify under-performers, not high achieving students.

US students seem to fail particularly in maths.

Much of the problem is high variance and clustering leading to very bad outcomes on the low end. For instance, on the most recent TIMMS, average 8th grade US math scores are right behind Finland. Also, it's usually bad to compare the US as a whole to an individual European country. Education in the US is highly localized (mostly state-level and district-level curriculum and funding) and many states are about the same geographic and population size as a European country. Some state breakdowns are at the bottom of the table. Massachusetts is on par with Japan, while Alabama is on par with Armenia, for instance. There is also significant racial differences which makes the discussion very difficult. Using the data trends tool on the TIMMS site, Asian Americans score 549, White Americans score 533, Hispanic Americans score 475 and Black Americans score 457 (you can look at the linked table for comparisons). This is less variance than in the past which is both good and bad because reforms and emphasis on testing has reduced scores at the upper end as well as increased them at the lower end. In 1992, dividing the US into four "countries" by race, Asian Americans were top in the world, White Americans 6th, Hispanic Americans third from the bottom and Black Americans worst in the world (of countries tested).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:00:39 am by Polk5440 »
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