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[sylas]

Though I'd post my ideas here from now instead of clogging up the board with new topics every week.


CROWN, $6, Treasure
Worth $?
+1VP token
When you play this, it’s worth $1 per Victory card you have in your hand.


PICKPOCKET, $3, Action-Attack
+1 Buy
Each other player chooses one: he trashes a card from his hand; or he gains a Curse, putting it into his hand.
You may gain any of the trashed cards. If you do, put them into your hand.

[Powerman]

Crown is probably a $4 Card.  I could see $3 though.

[sylas]

really? in early rounds it could get a +$3, which is as good as Gold, or at least help you get that Gold early. and it gets you a VP token.

[eHalcyon]

Crown is only good if you have a bad hand. Compare it to Monument. If you draw it with 4 coppers, Monument gets you to Gold. Crown is dead. If you draw it with two Estates, they are the same. Crown is only better when you have 3 or more green in hand.

Look at it another way. $1 per green is just a variant of Secret Chamber, a weak $2 card. Multiple Crowns will stack, but SC can get coin for dead cards Other than green.

[sylas]

okay. i'll go with $4. $3 seems too cheap.

[NoMoreFun]

Pickpocket is a weaker Cutpurse variant early game, and by the time people are choosing to gain curses they won't have that much of an impact.

It's not a bad idea, but you could make the bonus +$2 instead of +1 buy and/or limit the trashing to Actions and Treasures (so they can't trash curses you give them). You could even make it a Swindler variant and change the "or" to an "and"; although be careful when the curses run out.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I don't think Crown should be below $5. It's hard to say since there isn't an official example, but I feel like a treasure that gives +VP is considerably more powerful than an action that does.

[eHalcyon]

Pickpocket is a weaker Cutpurse variant early game, and by the time people are choosing to gain curses they won't have that much of an impact.

It's not a bad idea, but you could make the bonus +$2 instead of +1 buy and/or limit the trashing to Actions and Treasures (so they can't trash curses you give them). You could even make it a Swindler variant and change the "or" to an "and"; although be careful when the curses run out.

Limiting to Actions and Treasures would be better.  Otherwise, the attack is very similar to the Bishop bonus to opponents.  Early on, opponents would be very happy to trash Coppers and Estates to your Pickpocket.

I don't think Crown should be below $5. It's hard to say since there isn't an official example, but I feel like a treasure that gives +VP is considerably more powerful than an action that does.

I don't know.  You can't KC a Treasure.

[NoMoreFun]

Crown will be really good with big drawing engines. Non terminal +VP does seem very powerful (you need the actions to play lots of monuments and bishops and goons, and those 3 are some of the best cards in the game). $6 is a lot but $5 would probably be right.

[Asper]

The problem with crown is that it is very good at getting you victory tokens and very bad at buying things.
Maybe you should try making it worth 2 constantly and do "When you discard this: +1VT per coin you didn't spend during your buy phase", "Reveal your hand: +1VT per victory card revealed" or something along those lines. It should also/otherwise cost less then 6, especially if you want it to be good in the early game, where you can't normally afford $6.

[LastFootnote]

Unfortunately, I don't think Crown will work at any price. Read common pitfall #19 in rinkworks's card creation guide.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0

I'd probably just buy these out and play them until the game ended.

[sylas]

that sucks but a good point. i'll try making it terminal somehow like, you can't play Crown if there's already one in play. see how that goes.


after playtesting, I've decided to tack on a self trashing and +$1 for Pickpocket since i wanted to keep the +Buy. true, in early rounds it's not great as it also helps opponents with trashing. but it definitely plays better later on in the game when VP is more important and opponents don't want to give you any money to buy big cards. (bare in mind, in my group, we are nowhere near being the best of players 


PICKPOCKET, $3, Action-Attack
+$1, +1 Buy
All players (including you) choose one: he gains a Curse, putting it into his hand; or he trashes a card from his hand.
You may gain any of the trashed cards. If you do, put them into your hand.

[enfynet]

[...]

PICKPOCKET, $3, Action-Attack
+$1, +1 Buy
All players (including you) choose one: he gains a Curse, putting it into his hand; or he trashes a card from his hand.
You may gain any of the trashed cards. If you do, put them into your hand.

TR-Pickpocket becomes:
+$2, +2 Buy, All other players gain a Curse to their hand and trash a Curse from their hand.

This seems a little redundant.

[Asper]

LastFootnote is of course right, i posted that without thinking it through...
But i do think crown can be saved. You just have to make sure using it will bring us closer to ending the game.
For example:
Crown
$2
+1 Buy
---------
If you buy a victory card while this is in play: + 1 VT

Cost $5 6

EDIT: 5 might be overpowered, now that i think of it. If Harem and Hoard cost 6, a crown like this one might also do well for that price. In fact holding several of those in hand might make you favour estates over duchies, which is something we don't usually have

[Asper]

Here an idea for pickpocket:

Pickpocket
+ 1 Buy
Each player with 4 or more Cards in his hand discards a card. You may put any of the discarded cards in your hand.
Cost 4$

This will keep them from trashing copper, as you'll just take them if you really are in desperate need for money (and they will not be removed from their deck, otherwise). Basically, if you do not want their copper, this is a cutpurse.
It also will make them hold on to their victories, as you might gain them otherwise. You'll probably never get a province this way (at least not if you wouldn't also by a masquerade), but i think 4 is anything but to expensive for this. Well, playtesting would solve this question.

[NoMoreFun]

I actually like the idea of pickpocket being a curser that you only want to play once a turn.

How about
Pickpocket
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player with 5 or more cards in his hand reveals a card, then either discards or trashes it (his choice). He gains a curse in his hand. You may gain a copy of any card revealed this way, putting it on top of your deck.

It will be a really strong attack late game, even after curses run out, because other players won't want to give you their green, so they'll be forced to discard one of their "good" cards, which you can gain. Top decking puts a balance on it by making gaining green slightly less lucrative late game, while making the better cards accessible. The wording means that no matter how many players are in the game, you only gain one card.

[Asper]

Pickpocket
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player with 5 or more cards in his hand reveals a card, then either discards or trashes it (his choice). He gains a curse in his hand. You may gain a copy of any card revealed this way, putting it on top of your deck.

I just thought about the fact that if several players attack this way, the first one to play it will have the biggest benefit from it. If you are next in line after him, the only one you can steal a card from is the first attacker himself. On the other hand, this is not so different with militia where +2$ is a bigger benefit for somebody with 4 other cards in hand, so it might be allright.

[NoMoreFun]

Pickpocket
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player with 5 or more cards in his hand reveals a card, then either discards or trashes it (his choice). He gains a curse in his hand. You may gain a copy of any card revealed this way, putting it on top of your deck.

I just thought about the fact that if several players attack this way, the first one to play it will have the biggest benefit from it. If you are next in line after him, the only one you can steal a card from is the first attacker himself. On the other hand, this is not so different with militia where +2$ is a bigger benefit for somebody with 4 other cards in hand, so it might be allright.

That's a good point though. I don't think any other attack's benefit is both tied to tied to the attack itself and also self limiting in such an obvious way. Still it's mostly a minor benefit, and by the time you're going to actually want to gain anything from this card, seeing multiple plays of this in a turn will be quite rare.

[sylas]

Unfortunately, I don't think Crown will work at any price. Read common pitfall #19 in rinkworks's card creation guide.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0

I'd probably just buy these out and play them until the game ended.

actually re-thinking this point, wouldn't the original Crown design still encourage you to buy Victory cards rather than just collect VT? if you rely on the VT gain each time it is played, you will not accumulate much VP overall. you can't just buy Crowns because they are only good if you had Victory cards. so in order to use Crown to it's best effect, you'd still have to buy Victory cards for the +$. isn't that something that encourages end game? also getting 3+ Crowns in every hand isn't such a common thing.
otherwise, the only other idea i had is to limit the Crown supply to twice the number of players (we never play with more than 5).

[Drab Emordnilap]

actually re-thinking this point, wouldn't the original Crown design still encourage you to buy Victory cards rather than just collect VT? if you rely on the VT gain each time it is played, you will not accumulate much VP overall. you can't just buy Crowns because they are only good if you had Victory cards. so in order to use Crown to it's best effect, you'd still have to buy Victory cards for the +$. isn't that something that encourages end game? also getting 3+ Crowns in every hand isn't such a common thing.
otherwise, the only other idea i had is to limit the Crown supply to twice the number of players (we never play with more than 5).

Well, if my deck is 4 Crowns and a Chapel, I don't need to buy anything ever again; I'll just take my 4 VP a turn until I have more points than you can get from the supply.

[sylas]

Bah.

i'm certain there's an easy solution to this without changing too much. i've just got to find it 

i actually like Asper's suggestion but feel it kind of overwhelms Harem.

[Asper]

i actually like Asper's suggestion but feel it kind of overwhelms Harem.

Thank you. And yeah, probably it does. Buy at least three victories with this and it's easily better. Maybe simply have it produce less coin (I personally like that + 1 buy as it makes you buy cheap victories like estates that usually get neglected).

Crown
1$
+ 1 Buy
----------------------
While this is in play, when you buy a victory card: + 1 VT
Cost 5$ / 6$
(Up to playtesting to see if 6$ is still okay this way.)

[sylas]

Crown
1$
+ 1 Buy
----------------------
While this is in play, when you buy a victory card: + 1 VT
Cost 5$ / 6$
(Up to playtesting to see if 6$ is still okay this way.)

after playtesting, unfortunately this still somewhat has the 4 Crowns and a Chapel dilemma.

just keep buying 2 Estates every other turn until they're gone and rack up your VT.

i do have a new idea though. the +VT thing doesn't work well with Crown so i might ditch it altogether. let's try this:

CROWN, $4, Treasure-Victory
$?
Worth $1 per Victory card in your hand.
----------
Worth 1VP per Province you have.


strictly not as good as Duke or Secret Chamber (and they aren't great themselves either) but should combo better with other cards such as Scout and Ironworks.

[Asper]

after playtesting, unfortunately this still somewhat has the 4 Crowns and a Chapel dilemma.

just keep buying 2 Estates every other turn until they're gone and rack up your VT.

Well, if you have crossroads, watchtower and three goons, you can do this, too.
Just play crossroads, then the goons, buy 4 coppers, trash them all, repeat.
Or use Kings Court, Goons and a chapel - that works nicely, too.

What (arguably) makes crown more powerful than goons here is basicly that it needs no crossroads/KC for it to work.
On the other hand, you cannot just buy things costing 0 with (my idea of) crown, and also you don't attack by playing it. Also, you need to take some turns to trash the estates inbetween.
If it costs 6 and only produces 1$, i do not see it to be actually overpowered for it's price. There are several cards in official dominion that are just absurd if you manage to build a golden deck around them, especially the cards giving VP tokens. And chapel is a fantastic card itself. Even 2 Salvagers and 3 Stashes can guarantee you a province every turn...

[NoMoreFun]

Crown
1$
+ 1 Buy
----------------------
While this is in play, when you buy a victory card: + 1 VT
Cost 5$ / 6$
(Up to playtesting to see if 6$ is still okay this way.)

after playtesting, unfortunately this still somewhat has the 4 Crowns and a Chapel dilemma.

just keep buying 2 Estates every other turn until they're gone and rack up your VT.

i do have a new idea though. the +VT thing doesn't work well with Crown so i might ditch it altogether. let's try this:

CROWN, $4, Treasure-Victory
$?
Worth $1 per Victory card in your hand.
----------
Worth 1VP per Province you have.


strictly not as good as Duke or Secret Chamber (and they aren't great themselves either) but should combo better with other cards such as Scout and Ironworks.

You might want to halve the VP or increase the price. In most normal games this card will be a better buy than duchy for the VP alone. I do like the minor self comboing though.