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[AdamH]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/31/game-20130131-052759-d4b1587a.html

I was under the impression that if Goons was in a game of Dominion, it was a must-buy and the only question was how heavily to invest in them. I am also not very good with Goons. In this game, I look at the board and think I will probably only get one Goons since there are no villages and I'll probably have a pretty thin deck. What I didn't expect is for Goons to actually be a bad card.

Granted, I don't think my opponent's deck had much focus to it, I benefited from nearly every Vault play, and almost all of the Goons plays because of Library.

So Goons is a bad card here, right? Or am I just wrong and got lucky?

[ehunt]

Generally if you win a big-money oriented game by a margin of more than two provinces, it's probably not just luck (for other games this isn't true due to snowball effects, e.g. with tournament). I do think your opponent made some mistakes --  a vault and two goons is just too many terminals in a deck where you've been playing remake a bunch, especially with cartographer around to ensure you can draw a terminal every turn.

Still, library is a hard counter to discard attacks and is also nice with an opponent's vault, as you noticed. Also, this is a "soft goons" board -- without villages, a goons is "just" a monument-militia-woodcutter-hybrid with an option for an extra point if you buy worse cards, which is nothing to sneeze at, but is not as game-dominating as a "hard goons" board. All that said, I would probably buy goons over gold on this board.

[AdamH]

Would you say even my T11 Gold was a mistake, then? I thought about it and decided I wanted Gold over Goons at that point since I already had two Libraries and a Remake of my own. Before that, I didn't have any $6 or $7, but up until faced with that decision, I sort of assumed I'd be buying a Goons when I got there.

[dondon151]

I don't think that you can play Goons often enough to be worth it - the VP will only matter if you can split Provinces with your opponent, and when you play a Goons when your opponent has a Library in hand, he's basically guaranteed a Province.

It's still a close call between Goons and Gold. If this were a Colony game, I would definitely eschew Goons completely.

[ehunt]

Would you say even my T11 Gold was a mistake, then? I thought about it and decided I wanted Gold over Goons at that point since I already had two Libraries and a Remake of my own. Before that, I didn't have any $6 or $7, but up until faced with that decision, I sort of assumed I'd be buying a Goons when I got there.

no, by turn 11, your deck is already built, i agree with your decision.

[DG]

Ghost ships also have a good chance of beating goons here.

[-Stef-]

I think you played better so I won't call it luck.

The main points were already made by ehunt:
Your opponent is playing 4 terminals in a remake deck. Three of those terminals have a serious advantage for you & your Libraries.
He bought two Goons getting him a lot of clashed and a whopping total of 2 points.

However, I think the winning line here is opening Potion/Wishing Well. Pick up an apothecary and a Remake (estate -> more wishing wells) on your next shuffle.
On the first $6 add a Goons and stop using the Remake.
You can pick up 2 points a turn while improving the deck for a while with more apothecaries/Wishing Wells/Cartographers.
When the timing is right switch to Provinces.

I gave it a try single player, and although that doesn't make too much sense I still like this line. Half the provinces by turn 13 looks reasonable, and a Goons or Ghost Ship attack doesn't really hurt this deck either (discarding / topdecking coppers will easily get drawn by Apothecaries / Whishing Wells)

[AdamH]

Stef, I am not surprised that you are able to do something better than anyone else when wishing well is involved  . I actually thought about doing something like that but I thought to myself "I'm not Stef so I couldn't pull it off" especially with goons on the board.

[D Bo]

Question: do we really want Remake here at all? I think I would've just been inclined to go Silver/Silver if I was aiming for Libraries and Cartographers and not worry about the coppers/estates, but that might not be the right call.

[Eevee]

Random question to Stef and others: Why do you use an alt for the solo ventures?

[dondon151]

Stef, I am not surprised that you are able to do something better than anyone else when wishing well is involved  . I actually thought about doing something like that but I thought to myself "I'm not Stef so I couldn't pull it off" especially with goons on the board.

I don't understand this mindset. It's as if you're consigning yourself to poor execution before you've even tried it. You don't have to be -Stef- to execute a fairly strong 2-card combo with a couple of other Actions on the side. If you look at his play, an Apothecary-WW strategy is pretty automatic.

[AdamH]

Stef, I am not surprised that you are able to do something better than anyone else when wishing well is involved  . I actually thought about doing something like that but I thought to myself "I'm not Stef so I couldn't pull it off" especially with goons on the board.

I don't understand this mindset. It's as if you're consigning yourself to poor execution before you've even tried it. You don't have to be -Stef- to execute a fairly strong 2-card combo with a couple of other Actions on the side. If you look at his play, an Apothecary-WW strategy is pretty automatic.

My first part was meant as a compliment to Stef's use of Wishing Well. I looked at his hit rate with his wishes and it's quite good, but some of his more "odd" wishes turn out to make sense after more thought -- more thought than I'd probably give it before actually making the wish, for sure.

Part of my Dominion play is recognizing my weaknesses, which was part of the reason for this thread. My self-deprecation may come off a little strong, perhaps, but I know that Goons is one of my weaker cards. Also, I haven't gotten much play with Apothecary/WW and it didn't jump out to me as being as awesome as Stef made it. This is why he's 20+ levels above me, and I don't intend to lose sight of that fact. I'll believe I have nothing to learn from Stef when I'm even mildly competitive against him and my level is within an order of magnitude of his, and I'll keep that attitude until that happens. And if it does, then all the ladies will love me like they do him.

Question: do we really want Remake here at all? I think I would've just been inclined to go Silver/Silver if I was aiming for Libraries and Cartographers and not worry about the coppers/estates, but that might not be the right call.

At the beginning of the game, I was not aiming for Libraries and Cartographers. I was aiming for a trim deck that would be able to play a Goons often and cycle a lot through the use of Cartographer. On $5 I thought Library might be a nice thing to have after my second Cartographer, and over the next few turns I thought I was in a good position to go in the direction I did. That said, if I was aiming for the deck I ended up with, I probably still would have opened Remake, but I could be wrong.

[eHalcyon]

I'll believe I have nothing to learn from Stef when I'm even mildly competitive against him and my level is within an order of magnitude of his

Aren't most of our levels technically within an order of magnitude of each other?  Nobody is level 100.  Maybe you are using non-decimal.

[AdamH]

I'll believe I have nothing to learn from Stef when I'm even mildly competitive against him and my level is within an order of magnitude of his

Aren't most of our levels technically within an order of magnitude of each other?  Nobody is level 100.  Maybe you are using non-decimal.

I definitely will use binary before decimal, but I encourage you to not take my comments too literally.