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[ednever]

From the DXV interview thread:


"I can pick a poster child for each set though.

Main: Laboratory
Intrigue: Nobles
Seaside: Wharf
Alchemy: Golem
Prosperity: Bank
Cornucopia: Fairgrounds
Hinterlands: Haggler
Dark Ages: Graverobber"

So that's your 8-card kingdom.

How do you play it?
(pretty clear you open silver/silver anyway...)

At first glance i thought it was obvious, but the more I look the more I see cool options.

Ed

Ed

[theory]

Fairgrounds takes a bit of a hit, I suppose ... 6VP Fairgrounds would require a copy of all 8 Kingdom Cards, all 3 Treasures, all 3 Victory cards, and a Curse.  At least there aren't that many terminals and Nobles if you are desperate.

[Tables]

My first glance answer is Wharf-BM with Banks over Golds. I'm now wondering what cool options you've spotted that can improve on that. I guess Fairgrounds aren't too tough to reach 4 VPs, so they could be factored in...

[heron]

Straight Wharf-Bank-BM for me, I think.

[AJD]

Clearly we wait to find out what the iconic card from Guilds is, add Stash, and then play a 10-card kingdom.

[cluckyb]

Would throwing in a golem help? It gives you an extra wharf play. You'd probably manage to hit it every other turn at least, (and it doesn't stay pinned to your wharves), but of course you also have a junk potion floating around and your start slows down. Still, those extra two cards late game might be what you need to reach $16. Just a thought.

[dondon151]

Assuming there are 2 other cards in the kingdom, I'm pretty sure that BM is not the way to go when there is alt VP like Nobles and Fairgrounds on the board and very strong engine enablers such as Golem, Lab, Wharf, and Haggler.

[werothegreat]

Clearly we wait to find out what the iconic card from Guilds is, add Stash, and then play a 10-card kingdom.

I would have gone with Black Market or Governor to represent the Promos.

[Tables]

Assuming there are 2 other cards in the kingdom, I'm pretty sure that BM is not the way to go when there is alt VP like Nobles and Fairgrounds on the board and very strong engine enablers such as Golem, Lab, Wharf, and Haggler.

I think the assumption is there aren't.

[ftl]

Clearly we wait to find out what the iconic card from Guilds is, add Stash, and then play a 10-card kingdom.

I would have gone with Black Market or Governor to represent the Promos.

I believe DXV has previously said that stash is his favorite promo. I can't find the quote now though.

If I remember right, his reasoning was that it was
1) Exotic
2) Simple enough that it could be a promo and doesn't need a rulebook/faq
3) Not something that you'd miss if you didn't get promos

but I could be misremembering.

[AJD]

Clearly we wait to find out what the iconic card from Guilds is, add Stash, and then play a 10-card kingdom.

I would have gone with Black Market or Governor to represent the Promos.

I believe DXV has previously said that stash is his favorite promo. I can't find the quote now though.

If I remember right, his reasoning was that it was
1) Exotic
2) Simple enough that it could be a promo and doesn't need a rulebook/faq
3) Not something that you'd miss if you didn't get promos

but I could be misremembering.

Yep. Personally I prefer Black Market but Stash seems a reasonable choice to me as well.

[SirPeebles]

Would Golem/Stash be a good combo then?  Probably with a single Wharf tossed in.

[Morgrim7]

Would Golem/Stash be a good combo then?  Probably with a single Wharf tossed in.

I guess so, but looks slower than Wharf BM with Bank

[Donald X.]

Clearly we wait to find out what the iconic card from Guilds is, add Stash, and then play a 10-card kingdom.

I would have gone with Black Market or Governor to represent the Promos.

I believe DXV has previously said that stash is his favorite promo. I can't find the quote now though.

If I remember right, his reasoning was that it was
1) Exotic
2) Simple enough that it could be a promo and doesn't need a rulebook/faq
3) Not something that you'd miss if you didn't get promos

but I could be misremembering.

Stash is the promo that does the best job of being a promo, for the reasons you cite. As cards I like Black Market and Governor more.

[Tonks77]

Fairgrounds takes a bit of a hit, I suppose ... 6VP Fairgrounds would require a copy of all 8 Kingdom Cards, all 3 Treasures, all 3 Victory cards, and a Curse.  At least there aren't that many terminals and Nobles if you are desperate.

You can use Potion instead of the curse.

[dondon151]

I think the assumption is there aren't.

That's absurd, because a kingdom has 10 cards 

In any case I still think engine wins. 6 VP Fairgrounds are easy, Nobles are tiebreaker VP, and the engine is pretty resilient to Duchies as well. BM does only need to get to 7 Provinces unless the engine wants to get the 15th card from someplace else, but I'm pretty sure that's more than enough time for the engine to gain a ton of cards and play massive turns.

[flies]

I think it's pretty hard to make an engine in the 8 card kingdom - wharf+bank BM is very strong, and that combo allows you to safely wait to green if you see your opponent isn't going to contest provinces.  In that case, the BM player can expect to double province at least once. 

Engine problems: the only source of +action is nobles, which is terrible for that (necropolis for $6), and Golem (which might hit a lab if you're lucky or spend a long time getting a high lab density).  With Fairgrounds at 6, it's possible, but that means you need a lot of terminal actions (with poor +action) among which Graverobber is a mostly dead $5 (note that you don't need a curse if you've got a potion).  If you'd go for an engine in the 8 card kingdom, i'd like to hear how you think you can make it work.  It may be that if you can hit 6 reliably and pick up a Nobles and a lab your golems would actually work.

On the other hand, if you through a cheap non-terminal or two in there, then the Golem can actually work for +action, the Haggler gets way better (now useful for more than silver when you don't hit 6), and the Graverobber can trash those for Fairgrounds later on (not terribly useful, but at least it's no longer dead).

[dondon151]

Anyway here's a not-very-well-executed engine on my first try: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/01/game-20130201-070318-8b0d981b.html

Compared to Bank-Wharf-BM, which I'm guessing is around 17-18 turns to 7 Provinces and 19-20 turns to 8 Provinces: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/01/game-20130201-070651-ec5d8710.html

I'm pretty sure engine can be optimized to be much faster with earlier Banks. I feel like I greened too early and was just doing things haphazardly.

[Powerman]

Anyway here's a not-very-well-executed engine on my first try: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/01/game-20130201-070318-8b0d981b.html

Compared to Bank-Wharf-BM, which I'm guessing is around 17-18 turns to 7 Provinces and 19-20 turns to 8 Provinces: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/01/game-20130201-070651-ec5d8710.html

I'm pretty sure engine can be optimized to be much faster with earlier Banks. I feel like I greened too early and was just doing things haphazardly.

Does Wharf-BM really want 7 Wharves?  Isn't the consensus around 3-4?

[dondon151]

One of those came really late when I didn't want to spend $5 on a Duchy because the goal is to empty out the Provinces, but 6 Wharves sound about right... A weaker terminal drawer like Oracle demands 3-4 in a BM deck, so it makes sense that Wharf wants even more, especially when the goal is to get 8 Provinces and not 4.

In the actual matchup you probably won't get to 6 because the engine is competing for them and can pick them up really quickly in the mid-game.

EDIT: here's a better one with a more realistic number of Wharves
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/01/game-20130201-075826-21468ca8.html

[Piemaster]

I think Stash is actually my least favourite card in the game.  It might be 'exotic' but it doesn't do anything really interesting as such.  It's not really a great combo card that you can really do 'cool stuff' with and because it isn't that good so I haven't played with it enough to have a soft spot for it or have any good memories.  Oh and it makes my collection look ugly by having the cheek to have a different back, which really makes my OCD flare up.

Sorry Stash, someone has to be in last place

[Drab Emordnilap]

I think Stash is actually my least favourite card in the game.  It might be 'exotic' but it doesn't do anything really interesting as such.  It's not really a great combo card that you can really do 'cool stuff' with and because it isn't that good so I haven't played with it enough to have a soft spot for it or have any good memories.  Oh and it makes my collection look ugly by having the cheek to have a different back, which really makes my OCD flare up.

Sorry Stash, someone has to be in last place

Man, the one game I played with Stash where I got to use them to hide from my opponent's Schemed Pirate Ships made Stash worth it forever.

[crazyrunnerguy]

Good thought above, and it's likely tough to beat Wharf/Bank/BM, but my initial thoughts also suggested opening potion/Silver, and picking up a Golem or then pushing Wharfs (2 or 3) and Labs on $5 after you get a couple of golds and push for double provinces to end game.

[Tables]

Good thought above, and it's likely tough to beat Wharf/Bank/BM, but my initial thoughts also suggested opening potion/Silver, and picking up a Golem or then pushing Wharfs (2 or 3) and Labs on $5 after you get a couple of golds and push for double provinces to end game.

You definitely don't want to open Potion. The chance of drawing Potion, silver and 2 coppers (or Potion and 4 coppers) is small, and even if you do, what actions are you planning to play with it? The potion should be grabbed during the second reshuffle at the earliest, possibly the third.

Dondon, I have to say the strength of the engine there surprised me somewhat... but will it still hold up as well when it's actually facing a real opponent? BM/Wharf is obviously going to grab a lot of Wharves quickly, leaving the engine to choose between not getting many (it'd probably manage 3-4, especially if the BM player denies them by overbuying (not sure how good an idea that is mind), OR having to grab them a little earlier than desired, slowing the engine's buildup a little. In either case, I think it'll be slowed somewhat. I dunno if that's enough for Wharf to win out, though.

[flies]

my best BM/wharf run to 8 prov was 15 turns (with no duchies) http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/01/game-20130201-141945-80fad65a.html , more typically 17 turns with some duchies (scores in the high 50s).

Clearly, dondon's engine can beat that.  I am clearly no engineer!