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[GendoIkari]

So you open Steward + Potion with Familiar on the board. Turn 3 hand: Copper, Copper, Copper, Potion, Steward.

What's the right play?

This just happened in a real game. I went with +2 cards for increased cycling, but I certainly think the trash option may have been better.

Also a strategy question; is Steward reason to ignore Familiar?

[Schneau]

Also a strategy question; is Steward reason to ignore Familiar?

inb4 depends on the kingdom

[HiveMindEmulator]

If you opened Potion, it should be because you think it's very important to get a Familiar asap. So you should do the +cards and buy the Familiar. If buying the Familiar asap is not important, maybe you shouldn't have bought Potion. On its own, Steward is not a reason to ignore Familiar. But Familiar can play very differently on boards with strong trashing. Depending on the engine, sometimes it's better to build the engine first, then add Familiars. If you buy Potion, then Familiar on early turns, you're giving up a lot of tempo on the engine building, since neither are useful for anything other than giving curses.

[Powerman]

If you opened Potion, it should be because you think it's very important to get a Familiar asap. So you should do the +cards and buy the Familiar. If buying the Familiar asap is not important, maybe you shouldn't have bought Potion. On its own, Steward is not a reason to ignore Familiar. But Familiar can play very differently on boards with strong trashing. Depending on the engine, sometimes it's better to build the engine first, then add Familiars. If you buy Potion, then Familiar on early turns, you're giving up a lot of tempo on the engine building, since neither are useful for anything other than giving curses.

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

Now, I personally do think +2 Cards is right, but it's tough.  For example Potion-Steward-C-E-E.  Trash, or +$2.  Still a tough decision.

[eHalcyon]

If you opened Potion, it should be because you think it's very important to get a Familiar asap. So you should do the +cards and buy the Familiar. If buying the Familiar asap is not important, maybe you shouldn't have bought Potion. On its own, Steward is not a reason to ignore Familiar. But Familiar can play very differently on boards with strong trashing. Depending on the engine, sometimes it's better to build the engine first, then add Familiars. If you buy Potion, then Familiar on early turns, you're giving up a lot of tempo on the engine building, since neither are useful for anything other than giving curses.

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

Now, I personally do think +2 Cards is right, but it's tough.  For example Potion-Steward-C-E-E.  Trash, or +$2.  Still a tough decision.

How is the logic faulty?  Trashing is not the only reason to get a Steward.  Steward/Potion is usually better than Silver/Potion opening if you plan on getting a Steward eventually anyway.

[ftl]

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

If you opened steward, that means you wanted to trash. If you opened Potion, that means you wanted Familiar. There are two things you wanted, and you can only get one of them! Fancy that!

In this case, the choice is between trashing two coppers or getting a familiar. I'd bet that skews more towards getting the familiar. If the choice was between trashing two estates and getting the familiar, that probably skews more to trashing two estates.

[jonts26]

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

If you opened steward, that means you wanted to trash. If you opened Potion, that means you wanted Familiar. There are two things you wanted, and you can only get one of them! Fancy that!

In this case, the choice is between trashing two coppers or getting a familiar. I'd bet that skews more towards getting the familiar. If the choice was between trashing two estates and getting the familiar, that probably skews more to trashing two estates.

What if on turn 4 you draw Steward/C/C/E/E and know your next two cards are P/C. What then?

[ftl]

Oh man. No idea

Depends on the board!

[dondon151]

The answer to all of these questions is to curse your luck and ragequit.

[Wingnut]

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

If you opened steward, that means you wanted to trash. If you opened Potion, that means you wanted Familiar. There are two things you wanted, and you can only get one of them! Fancy that!

In this case, the choice is between trashing two coppers or getting a familiar. I'd bet that skews more towards getting the familiar. If the choice was between trashing two estates and getting the familiar, that probably skews more to trashing two estates.

What if on turn 4 you draw Steward/C/C/E/E and know your next two cards are P/C. What then?

I think that is a certain play it for cards as that gets everything back in your deck for the reshuffle (assuming no edge cases here like Oracle having discarded cards) along with the Familiar.

[HiveMindEmulator]

If you opened Potion, it should be because you think it's very important to get a Familiar asap. So you should do the +cards and buy the Familiar. If buying the Familiar asap is not important, maybe you shouldn't have bought Potion. On its own, Steward is not a reason to ignore Familiar. But Familiar can play very differently on boards with strong trashing. Depending on the engine, sometimes it's better to build the engine first, then add Familiars. If you buy Potion, then Familiar on early turns, you're giving up a lot of tempo on the engine building, since neither are useful for anything other than giving curses.

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

Now, I personally do think +2 Cards is right, but it's tough.  For example Potion-Steward-C-E-E.  Trash, or +$2.  Still a tough decision.

Maybe it's an incomplete explanation, but I think the logic is fine. Opening Potion is risky. There are a lot of draws that don't get you a Familiar. An opening of Potion indicates that your number 1 priority is buying Familiar. Otherwise you should do something safer. If you really want to trash more than anything, you can open Steward/Steward.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

If you opened steward, that means you wanted to trash. If you opened Potion, that means you wanted Familiar. There are two things you wanted, and you can only get one of them! Fancy that!

In this case, the choice is between trashing two coppers or getting a familiar. I'd bet that skews more towards getting the familiar. If the choice was between trashing two estates and getting the familiar, that probably skews more to trashing two estates.

What if on turn 4 you draw Steward/C/C/E/E and know your next two cards are P/C. What then?

I think that is a certain play it for cards as that gets everything back in your deck for the reshuffle (assuming no edge cases here like Oracle having discarded cards) along with the Familiar.

I disagree. At least it's not a slam dunk. Trashing 2 Estates is really good. Your Familiar shuffles in 2 turns later, but you know you'll be able to buy it, and you'll have removed 2 Estates, which are essentially Curses.

[kn1tt3r]

If you opened Potion, it should be because you think it's very important to get a Familiar asap. So you should do the +cards and buy the Familiar. If buying the Familiar asap is not important, maybe you shouldn't have bought Potion. On its own, Steward is not a reason to ignore Familiar. But Familiar can play very differently on boards with strong trashing. Depending on the engine, sometimes it's better to build the engine first, then add Familiars. If you buy Potion, then Familiar on early turns, you're giving up a lot of tempo on the engine building, since neither are useful for anything other than giving curses.

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

No. Opening Steward is not just for trashing, it is for flexiblity between trashing, coin and cycling. Sure, you certainly want to trash with Steward, but getting an early Familiar is too important and should have top priority. The chance alone to maybe trash AND get a familiar before your second reshuffle is reason enough to justify this opening, and there is no risk in it. In a vacuum Potion/Silver is just strictly worse.

[Davio]

Just draw 2 and hope they're Estates.

[WheresMyElephant]

If you opened Potion, it should be because you think it's very important to get a Familiar asap. So you should do the +cards and buy the Familiar. If buying the Familiar asap is not important, maybe you shouldn't have bought Potion. On its own, Steward is not a reason to ignore Familiar. But Familiar can play very differently on boards with strong trashing. Depending on the engine, sometimes it's better to build the engine first, then add Familiars. If you buy Potion, then Familiar on early turns, you're giving up a lot of tempo on the engine building, since neither are useful for anything other than giving curses.

Faulty logic.  If you opened steward, it should be because you think it's very important to trash asap.  Otherwise, it should have been a silver.

Now, I personally do think +2 Cards is right, but it's tough.  For example Potion-Steward-C-E-E.  Trash, or +$2.  Still a tough decision.

Or you might have bought Steward because there are no other interesting terminals, so it was strictly better than Silver. Even if you ARE especially interested in trashing, perhaps this is mostly because it would help you play your Familiars more often, in which case prioritizing the trashing over Familiar is putting the cart before the horse.

But it's probably more interesting to assume you do care about trashing primarily for other reasons. Even given that, I don't think you want to trash the Copper here. You have a Potion in your deck and are skipping your turn 3 buy: you have money density problems here, even before you start getting Cursed. Trashing two Coppers makes it more likely you'll have a $2P turn next reshuffle (which could well be fatal at that point) and also makes it harder to buy whatever other cards might have benefited from your new thin deck. So in the short term it's bad. In the long term it's very questionable as you're likely to wind up with 2 extra Curses replacing your 2 Coppers. Maybe some really good stuff happens in the interim period, but it would have to be really good.

This is a very minor issue in most games but, also, you would feel pretty silly if the following situation arose later. Imagine you're trying hard to thin your deck, and you get a chance to trash your Potion, but you have to buy a Familiar instead because you passed one up earlier.

[Titandrake]

It really depends on the board, but Steward might be enough to skip Familiar. You need +Actions, likely need +Buy, and have to be pretty aggressive with trashing (as in, maybe you open Steward/Steward), but I think it would work.

By which I mean, I have skipped Familiar in one game by opening Steward/Steward and building a Throne Room/Steward/Worker's Village engine. But it was only one game.

Also, on that specific play, I'd go for the +2 Cards.

[blueblimp]

I enjoy skipping Familiar whenever it appears viable. The most slam-dunk is if there is trashing, an engine, and an important massable $5. For example, a Wharf engine with trashing ought to wallop a Familiar opening most of the time, because you'll likely win the Wharf split, have no problem cleaning up the curses, and maybe even have time deal out some of your own.

[dondon151]

I thought BM-Wharf beats Familiar on average?

[HiveMindEmulator]

I thought BM-Wharf beats Familiar on average?

Wharf BM beats Familiar BM, but Familiar BM is terrible anyway. Familiar into Wharf can probably beat straight Wharf BM.