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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 110478 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #200 on: August 20, 2013, 09:49:19 pm »
+1

I don't care about that.

Is this your catchphrase? You say it all the time.  ;D
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #201 on: August 20, 2013, 09:53:24 pm »
0

...which is no argument whatsoever.

Data and science are not arguments?

Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.

now you are really messing up defininitions. to resolve this dispute without accessing in petty arguments i have to elaborate really far. the problem here is that dominion, similiar to a lot of games present in esport, is an incredibly complex game which noone (that includes professional gamers (if there are any) and creators) can fully grasp. that means that, unless two cards can be compared in a very narrow scale (like village vs worker village) you can't ever reach a final conclusion. the game is played by humans whose valuations are very much flawed, f.e. a lot of newer players wouldn't think that the chapel is as strong as we currently belief that it is. this means that "most people think..." doesn't work, so you have to narrow it down to the high skill level.

unfortunately, opinions on high level gaming is defined by the so called metagame. i dont know if that term is common for dominion, but it can be used the same way. the metagame is the common belief about how the game should be played. such a thing exists because high level players don't play isolated but share their knowledge and opinions on places like this. the problem is, dominion is way too young to have it's metagame static, and because the kingdoms are different every time it's also extremely complex and dynamic even in comparison to a lot of RTS games. if there wouldn't be any new extensions for, let's say, 5 years, a lot of things would change, some cards would gain a lot of popularity and some cards would lose some, until the point is reached where we discover what is actually strong. that point is far off.

one of this cards could be lookout. this means that these kinds of arguments never prove anything, and more specifically "data and science" is confusing, because we don't have any data about perfectly played games, we only have data of players playing in a specific metagame - the current metagame.

again, all of this doesn't mean that i'm right. but these kinds of arguments "general opinion", "statstics" or "winrates of cards" aren't valid to disproof quality judgements about cards. they can be used to make statements about probability, but you can never proof anything. if you could, i wouldn't even have stated that i think lookout is underrated in the first place. the very term "underrated" only makes sense because common belief is not a universal truth.

ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #202 on: August 20, 2013, 09:57:55 pm »
+1

I'd be curious to see the logs of those games.... here they are.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.5182cd42e4b05e4ebc88aeed.1377046960780.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1377045593876.txt

Tbh, I think in both cases Amb/Amb wasn't the best opening. Probably would have gotten my second Amb on t3/4 in both cases. But Lookout had the same issues, I don't know that lookout/lookout was the best lookout play? But I certainly know amb better than I know lookout. 

I still think the games show that Amb is better. Notably, in game 1, by turn 10 scsn had gotten down to just 1 starting card left, whereas silverspawn had 5 - and was getting hit with a junking attack each turn. By turn 13 they were back up to 7 dead cards (6 coppers 1 estate).

Interestingly, this game had lookout/fortress too, Fortress would definitely make late-game lookout plays safer.

I think it definitely illustrates why the Amb was better. Early-game things were pretty even, but the ambassador was just a little faster at trashing and then turned into a potent attack, keeping silverspawn from ever getting their deck thin enough given the weak draw (ghost ship, haven, followers, trusty steed being the only way to increase handsize).

Second game. Again, I think the conclusions are similar. Despite being hit by Mountebank, SCSN got rid of their starting cards faster. With both Mountebank and Ambassador, the game was super-slow, but at turn 17 scsn had three coppers and one curse in their deck. At that point, silverspawn had 7 coppers and 4 curses - this despite SCSN not having a mountebank yet. At the end of the game silverspawn had 11 coppers and 6 curses, whereas scsn had just 1 copper.

If Ambassador was just "trash two cards" then I think Lookout would be better. But it's not; the attack part of it is huge.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:12:52 pm by ftl »
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #203 on: August 20, 2013, 10:11:57 pm »
0

I would guess that the best response to double lookout isn't double amb, it's single amb? A single ambassador still trashes faster than two lookouts - a single play of Amb clears out two dead cards and gives out one dead card, whereas two lookouts clear out two dead cards (but receive one dead card from the amb). But double amb runs into collisions and economy problems pretty quickly. Usually you need double amb to 'win' the ambassador war against somebody else also going ambassadors, but if you're not getting junked then a single amb trashes fast enough and it might be better to spend the other opening buy on economy (or, even better, cycling).

 So in game 1, I probably would have opened amb/tournament or maybe amb/sage. And in the second game... well, against someone going with lookouts, maybe amb/mountebank?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #204 on: August 20, 2013, 10:20:14 pm »
0

Okay. So. You open with a lookout. I open with an ambassador. You play your lookout, trashing a card. I play ambassador, getting rid of two cards and giving you one.
Your deck did not get any smaller! You still have the same amount of junk! If we continue to play lookouts and ambassadors with equal frequency (not hard to do even though ambassador is terminal) you will never successfully trash your estates and coppers since I will keep giving you new ones! This is bad for you, and as such the majority of the time ambassador is superior to lookout.

But you're like, wait man, I opened DOUBLE Lookout! I'm trashin' two card a shuffle now! So, maybe I open Ambassador/Lookout, and I get rid of three cards to your one. You are going to lose.

And then, you're still not done arguing of course, so you say, whoa man, you might be trashin' super fast, but I'm building my deck way faster than you since I get to keep my full hand!
Except, honestly, if you open double lookout, your hand is going to be pretty crappy, averaging 2.33 coins per turn. Which, as you said, isn't very good since often the two dollar cards aren't very important anyway.

meh, that is paper thin argumentation again. what if you open with dual ambassador, i open with dual lookout, we both draw both our action cards with 3 coppers. i can get rid of 2 of my 3 estates in the turn, buy a silver or a third lookout and have all the new cards come again super quickly, because lookouts shorten the repeat cycle. you, on the other hand, just get rid of 2 coppers, give me one copper, and can't buy anything and your next turn will be just as bad because there are 3 estates left to draw

the way i would approach it is different. i'd try to figure out the amount of trashing per damage done, let's call it p/x. p can simply defined as difference of bad cards in both players decks, where as x would be the amount of damage that the turn in which you play it suffers. for lookout we can give it 1p/1x.

now let's try it for ambassador. i can give it 2,5p, because you get rid of 1-2 bad cards and your enemy gains 1 bad card. the amount of x has to be the estimated amount of damage compared to the one of lookout.

and that is really high. because once you got rid of your estates, you will have to return copper, which, if you don't want $2 cards, makes your turn completely useless. so i could give it somewhere between 2, while there are estates, and somewhere at 4, if it makes your turn useless. so that would be ~2,5/3,2. according to that, lookout is better. now obviously, you need about twice as many lookouts then ambassadors to make that work, but since you have more money in very early turns, you can get them. very early $3 instead of $2 is enough to have one additional lookout for the rest of the game.

now, obviously, this doesn't proof anything, it's just my line of thinking if i try to go onto the subject analyitcally. but also, what if there are shelters? what if there are no +action cards (exept necropolis)? lookout always works, and in the statistic there are dark ages cards, so those cases have to be taken into consideration. it's about how often we would almost never buy it and i would never buy ambassador if there are shelters, and very rarely without proper action setups.

Tbh, I think in both cases Amb/Amb wasn't the best opening. Probably would have gotten my second Amb on t3/4 in both cases. But Lookout had the same issues, I don't know that lookout/lookout was the best lookout play? But I certainly know amb better than I know lookout.

none of us will argue here. i didn't think that dual lookout was the best opening and he didn't think that dual amb was the best opening. we did it solely because the point was to decide wheter dual amb beats dual lookout or not

Quote
I think it definitely illustrates why the Amb was better. Early-game things were pretty even, but the ambassador was just a little faster at trashing and then turned into a potent attack, keeping silverspawn from ever getting their deck thin enough given the weak draw (ghost ship, haven, followers, trusty steed being the only way to increase handsize).

Second game. Again, I think the conclusions are similar. Despite being hit by Mountebank, SCSN got rid of their starting cards faster. With both Mountebank and Ambassador, the game was super-slow, but at turn 17 scsn had three coppers and one curse in their deck. At that point, silverspawn had 7 coppers and 4 curses - this despite SCSN not having a mountebank yet. At the end of the game silverspawn had 11 coppers and 6 curses, whereas scsn had just 1 copper.

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

oh and also, lookout is harder to execute i think. if you play perfect, you always know exactly which cards are left in your deck and then it takes a lot of the random factor away. and you always have exactly the right number. i couldve just bought too little/too many of them or bought them at wrong times
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:33:09 pm by silverspawn »
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #205 on: August 20, 2013, 10:32:11 pm »
0

Shelters definitely make amb worse, as does lack of +action.

On the other hand, lack of another attack makes amb better, because Amb also gives out bad cards.

I wouldn't say lookout *always* works. Because there are a few cases where the engine just isn't good enough without an attack to slow down the opponent, and in that case Lookout doesn't serve that purpose whereas Amb does.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:34:13 pm by ftl »
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #206 on: August 20, 2013, 10:34:54 pm »
+2

Trashing/Junking is way more important early. The earlier these happen, the more often you see better cards/your opponent sees worse cards. In games where deck size is important (which isn't every game, but if you're thinking of opening lookout or amb it should be), you want to do it as early as possible. Even if you have to sacrifice early buys to do it. Your single trashed card from lookout is pretty bad in comparison to the 2-3 card swing from amb. Missing a silver buy is usually well worth the early swing in deck size.

Now, is it possible that basically everyone who I consider to be an expert on the game agrees that amb is one of the strongest cards in the game while lookout is just mediocre is wrong? I guess. Is it likely? No.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #207 on: August 20, 2013, 10:38:12 pm »
+1

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #208 on: August 20, 2013, 10:41:25 pm »
0

Yeah, from looking at the game logs, you are attributing to luck what should really be attributed to superior trashing and junking from Ambassador.
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ragingduckd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #209 on: August 20, 2013, 10:46:59 pm »
+1

The problem with this test is that SCSN was an 87% favorite from an even start. According to the Isotropish numbers anyway.

But now that I really think about it, it's not that easy to even construct a kingdom where Lookout beats Ambassador. That is, without forcing the players to open Amb/Amb or Lookout/Lookout, come up with eight other cards such that a player who's allowed to buy Lookout beats one who's allowed to buy Ambassador.

Anyone have a clear example? Here's my first thought:

A shelters/Province game with Cultist, Counterfeit, no villages, and no cursers. But that's cheating really, since I'm making both cards sort of irrelevant.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:50:03 pm by ragingduckd »
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #210 on: August 20, 2013, 10:50:14 pm »
0

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.

fair enough. but i also could've had the province several turns earlier with a little bit of luck. and again, he has a 6,5k rating (and 4* as many games as me), i used to have a 6k rating, then stopped playing and now have 5,5k rating. that's a gigantic difference. he is a lot better at the game, so i probably did a lot more mistakes executing the dual lookouts than he did executing his dual amb.

but analysing our game is definitely a legit way to go. i would have to go over the second game in detail to determain how much of it is superior skill and how much of it is superior strength of ambassador

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #211 on: August 20, 2013, 10:54:48 pm »
+1

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Lookout

Kids these days, always needing to have things done for them...

Amb had 6 openings at +5 or greater. Lookout had 1. If we extend the threshold to +4 or greater, Amb had 21 while Lookout had 3.

In the meantime, two new expansions got released, but there's still no way that Lookout is better than Amb on most boards.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2013, 10:58:39 pm »
0

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Lookout

Kids these days, always needing to have things done for them...

Amb had 6 openings at +5 or greater. Lookout had 1. If we extend the threshold to +4 or greater, Amb had 21 while Lookout had 3.

In the meantime, two new expansions got released, but there's still no way that Lookout is better than Amb on most boards.

i don't think you read my very detailed explanation as to why these sorts of arguments are invalid. i wont write the same WoT again, so you may look it up on the page prior.

and i actually have to get up at 11.30 am tomorrow and it's 5am here, so i'm off for today.

gn8 ^_^

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2013, 11:14:55 pm »
+1

i don't think you read my very detailed explanation as to why these sorts of arguments are invalid. i wont write the same WoT again, so you may look it up on the page prior.

Your "very detailed explanation" is nothing but nonsense. Dominion doesn't have a very dynamic metagame. Perceptions of card strength can fluctuate greatly following the release of new expansions, but Seaside has been released for years and the relative positions of Lookout and Ambassador are very well established.
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #214 on: August 20, 2013, 11:23:03 pm »
+1

I am going to be direct here, because I am tired. If it comes off as rude, I apologize.

Quote
meh, that is paper thin argumentation again. what if you open with dual ambassador, i open with dual lookout, we both draw both our action cards with 3 coppers. i can get rid of 2 of my 3 estates in the turn, buy a silver or a third lookout and have all the new cards come again super quickly, because lookouts shorten the repeat cycle. you, on the other hand, just get rid of 2 coppers, give me one copper, and can't buy anything and your next turn will be just as bad because there are 3 estates left to draw

Okay, so if you have optimal shuffle luck and I have the worst possible shuffle luck, you win? That's great, but it works backwards too:
You draw Lookout/E/E/C/C on turn three, play Lookout, reveal C/C/Lookout, do the obvious thing. Turn 4 you draw Lookout/C/C/C/E.
I draw Amb/E/E/C/C. Turn 4 I draw Amb/E/C/C/C.
So, when I have optimal shuffle luck, I win too! So, yeah, I found the argument not convincing.


Quote
the way i would approach it is different. i'd try to figure out the amount of trashing per damage done, let's call it p/x. p can simply defined as difference of bad cards in both players decks, where as x would be the amount of damage that the turn in which you play it suffers. for lookout we can give it 1p/1x.

now let's try it for ambassador. i can give it 2,5p, because you get rid of 1-2 bad cards and your enemy gains 1 bad card. the amount of x has to be the estimated amount of damage compared to the one of lookout.

and that is really high. because once you got rid of your estates, you will have to return copper, which, if you don't want $2 cards, makes your turn completely useless. so i could give it somewhere between 2, while there are estates, and somewhere at 4, if it makes your turn useless. so that would be ~2,5/3,2. according to that, lookout is better. now obviously, you need about twice as many lookouts then ambassadors to make that work, but since you have more money in very early turns, you can get them. very early $3 instead of $2 is enough to have one additional lookout for the rest of the game.

Okay, as I said earlier, Lookout/Lookout is actually not much better for your economy than Amb/Amb. (Although I was wrong earlier, you get 2.9 coin per turn, not 2.3)
Basically, you with double lookout, you either get 2 $3 turns or a $4/$2  in the likely case. That sucks. Now, Amb/Amb gets like 1/3, which is horrendous. However, Amb/Amb has already removed 3 cards from its deck, unlike LO/LO.

Lets examine a possible (around the average case) deck composition after 4 turns:
Amb player: C/C/C/C/C/E/E/Amb/Amb/[$3 card]
Lookout player: C/C/C/C/C/C/C/E/E/E/Lookout/Lookout/[$3]/[$3]

That Ambassador deck sure looks more attractive to me.
So maybe the ambassadors collide, yeah, but generally you open like Amb/Cantrip or as in my last post, Amb/Lookout would be a great opening.

Quote
now, obviously, this doesn't proof anything, it's just my line of thinking if i try to go onto the subject analyitcally. but also, what if there are shelters? what if there are no +action cards (exept necropolis)? lookout always works, and in the statistic there are dark ages cards, so those cases have to be taken into consideration. it's about how often we would almost never buy it and i would never buy ambassador if there are shelters, and very rarely without proper action setups.

Yes, there are edge cases. Amb is pretty bad with shelters. But shelters are only there like 1/7 games. That's not many. And if there are no villages, why do you want to slim down with lookout so much? Building some sort of cantrip/nonterminal draw engine? 90% of the time, I would still rather have ambassador, because I'll slim down faster and slow down my opponent. When I'm done slimming, I have a dead card, lookout is dead even earlier.

Now, Lookout is not a bad card. It's a trasher after all. But that's all it does. Trash. Slowly. One card at a time. Cards like Ambassador trash quickly and junk the opponents. Steward is great as well, because it trashes super quickly, and it's not a dead card later.

I would be interested in hearing a quick sentence of your thoughts on chapel.
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Kirian

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #215 on: August 21, 2013, 12:20:14 am »
0

...which is no argument whatsoever.

Data and science are not arguments?

Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.

now you are really messing up defininitions. to resolve this dispute without accessing in petty arguments i have to elaborate really far. the problem here is that dominion, similiar to a lot of games present in esport, is an incredibly complex game which noone (that includes professional gamers (if there are any) and creators) can fully grasp. that means that, unless two cards can be compared in a very narrow scale (like village vs worker village) you can't ever reach a final conclusion. the game is played by humans whose valuations are very much flawed, f.e. a lot of newer players wouldn't think that the chapel is as strong as we currently belief that it is. this means that "most people think..." doesn't work, so you have to narrow it down to the high skill level.

unfortunately, opinions on high level gaming is defined by the so called metagame. i dont know if that term is common for dominion, but it can be used the same way. the metagame is the common belief about how the game should be played. such a thing exists because high level players don't play isolated but share their knowledge and opinions on places like this. the problem is, dominion is way too young to have it's metagame static, and because the kingdoms are different every time it's also extremely complex and dynamic even in comparison to a lot of RTS games. if there wouldn't be any new extensions for, let's say, 5 years, a lot of things would change, some cards would gain a lot of popularity and some cards would lose some, until the point is reached where we discover what is actually strong. that point is far off.

one of this cards could be lookout. this means that these kinds of arguments never prove anything, and more specifically "data and science" is confusing, because we don't have any data about perfectly played games, we only have data of players playing in a specific metagame - the current metagame.

again, all of this doesn't mean that i'm right. but these kinds of arguments "general opinion", "statstics" or "winrates of cards" aren't valid to disproof quality judgements about cards. they can be used to make statements about probability, but you can never proof anything. if you could, i wouldn't even have stated that i think lookout is underrated in the first place. the very term "underrated" only makes sense because common belief is not a universal truth.

Your "very detailed explanation" is nothing but nonsense.

I'm going to go one step farther than dondon and say that it is in fact obfuscatory nonsense.  When your argument tries to rest on "Hey, you can't prove anything, therefore everything is relative, therefore I might be right," then your rhetoric is severely flawed.

Anyone have the ability to simulate these with a naive BM?  I'm not sure how well the simulators are working nowadays.
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #216 on: August 21, 2013, 12:30:21 am »
0

The simulator would work fine, but I really doubt that BM+Ambassador vs BM+Lookout has anything to do with real play. They're both engine cards.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #217 on: August 21, 2013, 12:57:35 am »
+1

Silverspawn, you're right that the fact that many people believe a thing to be true does not make it true.

But, look, there's several objective ways to tell whether one is better than other. The first being, play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking) (EDIT: Who designed this card raking: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8693.0), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently floating around in there in the top 10 or 20 or so. These are the people who win more games than anyone else. These people were also at the top of the Isotropic rankings when that was a thing, so this is no accident--these are actually the best online Dominion players. Objectively, they win the most games.

I am confident that every single one of these people will tell you that Ambassador is a much better card than Lookout.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:04:07 am by Robz888 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #218 on: August 21, 2013, 01:01:39 am »
0

...play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently...

This isn't WanderingWinder's rankings...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

StrongRhino

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #219 on: August 21, 2013, 01:02:17 am »
0

Silverspawn, you're right that the fact that many people believe a thing to be true does not make it true.

But, look, there's several objective ways to tell whether one is better than other. The first being, play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently floating around in there in the top 10 or 20 or so. These are the people who win more games than anyone else. These people were also at the top of the Isotropic rankings when that was a thing, so this is no accident--these are actually the best online Dominion players. Objectively, they win the most games.


I am confident that every single one of these people will tell you that Ambassador is a much better card than Lookout.
Adding to this, you even admit that SCSN is a better player than you, doesn't that help prove that Amb is better when players better than you say it is?

Oh, and Robz, this is the  $3 Card List, not WW's rankings. EDIT: Ninja'd
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:04:14 am by StrongRhino »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2013, 01:19:33 am »
+7

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.

fair enough. but i also could've had the province several turns earlier with a little bit of luck. and again, he has a 6,5k rating (and 4* as many games as me), i used to have a 6k rating, then stopped playing and now have 5,5k rating. that's a gigantic difference. he is a lot better at the game, so i probably did a lot more mistakes executing the dual lookouts than he did executing his dual amb.

but analysing our game is definitely a legit way to go. i would have to go over the second game in detail to determain how much of it is superior skill and how much of it is superior strength of ambassador

I think the main reason he's a lot better is because he knows Ambassador is better than Lookout, tbh.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2013, 03:55:42 am »
+1

It is the generally agreement of dozens of players with a combined hundred thousand plus games...

...which is no argument whatsoever. it's also a general agreement of billions of people that there is a god and that democracy is the superior form of goverment and i disagree with both of those statements, and so do millions of others.
But billions of people aren't experts in philosophy or politics. People here saying that Ambassador is superior to Lookout are experts in Dominion. There's a difference.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2013, 04:36:10 am »
+1

but i just compared it to ambassador because he's #1. the actual joke is that even steward is higher than lookout which makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

You could repeat that experiment by playing someone who opens Steward / Steward versus your Lookout / Lookout.
You'll be very surprised because it's a great opening on many boards.
The versatility of Steward gives you both strong trashing and early 5$ hands. Not to mention that Steward is still useful later in the game.

You also ignore versatility in your Ambassador discussion entirely. You seem to forget that I don't HAVE to return two coppers. If I'm desperate for Silver I'll just return 1 or 0 coppers, get a Silver and still junk you. But early economy isn't the most important thing in Ambassador games anyway as I want to play my Ambassadors as often as possible and once I've won the Ambassador war I'll have a very slim deck and slingshot myself into Gold territory very quickly whereas the other player will never get any kind of control over their bloated deck.

Also you worry too much about terminal collision. Sure, Lookouts can't collide, but if the card just does so little for you then I don't care.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2013, 10:46:08 am »
+7

Guys, I think it's time for us to all just accept that Lookout is way better than Ambassador. The word of the best players doesn't convince silverspawn. The rational arguments put forward don't convince silverspawn. Even playing test games can't convince silverspawn. Those are pretty much the only avenues of proof we have. If none of them convinced him that Ambassador is usually the better card, then silverspawn must be right. Q.E.D.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2013, 10:59:09 am »
+6

You're probably all forgetting to take into account the huge boon Lookout got with its synergy with Mystic when Dark Ages came out.
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