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[rls22]

I also try to acknowledge when luck was a big factor in my win (particularly in the opening -- if I open 5/2 on a board with Witch or something).  And I never complain about my opponent's good luck -- that's totally rude.

One thing I've noticed in the past week or two (since this discussion started) is that I've had a lot more people resign on me.  A very noticeable difference in the number of people doing so, I think.  Most of them were totally legitimate (really far behind, the game wasn't close to being over), but I did have one person resign when there was only one turn left in the game (fast game, last pile was a $3, so presumably he could have ended it instead of resigning, and if not, I could have done so with one short turn).  That one fell into my "kind of annoying" category.  And today, someone resigned with a gg when I thought the outcome of the game was still very much up in the air, which I thought was weird.

[Personman]

And today, someone resigned with a gg when I thought the outcome of the game was still very much up in the air, which I thought was weird.

One thing to keep in mind is that sometimes real life intrudes, and you have to go deal with something immediately, with no time to type and explain. Resigning and mashing out gg is about as polite as you could possibly be under such circumstances :)

[Amaranth]

People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.

This is definitely the case, although the time I was thinking of was when on one pass through a deck, I drew two hands without Council Rooms, followed by a hand with 4 of them (needless to say, the other card wasn't a Village). I submit that that's a legitimate bad draw.

[WanderingWinder]

People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.

Hmmm, sometimes true, sometimes not. I missed when you turn-5ed your chapel against me when I did the same (and now I wonder how I wasn't paying so much attention), but I didn't realize how much the luck was on your side in the Amb/Amb v Amb/Silver game posted now in the game reports section until far afterwards.

[hughes]

I also try to acknowledge when luck was a big factor in my win (particularly in the opening -- if I open 5/2 on a board with Witch or something).  And I never complain about my opponent's good luck -- that's totally rude.

This happened to me today after I locked down my opponent in a ghost ship/torturer deal.  I had two of each and some villages and he claimed I was 'super lucky' and rage quit on me.

[chwhite]

The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success

This is a core assumption.  But its normative - not descriptive.  The vast majority of players do not resign the instant they know a game is lost.  As I said, look at how often you get to 43 points in a standard game but the other player doesn't resign on their next turn.

I completely agree that if a game is at all in doubt, play on.  If you want to save for a mega-turn, do it.  If you need to slog on until you've exhausted three piles, okay.  And maybe you just don't see the third pile - happens.  People LIKE to play to the end of a game, and self-evidently the vast majority of the players on Isotropic think it's enjoyable and courteous to do so.  I just think taking advantage of that courtesy is wrong.

The complaint was that in an obviously won position, the other person deliberately extends the game (e.g. buys a Duchy instead of the last Province, or doesn't end the third pile).

But if you are in that situation, you are also in a position to have resigned in an obviously lost position.  So I have no sympathy for your complaint, because you chose to bring it upon yourself by choosing not to resign.

Here's an interesting etiquette question:  Say there's a game where one player is using a point counter (or is just able to calculate it in their head easily) and the other isn't.  The player who isn't is ahead by enough that they could win by ending on piles, or last Province, or whatever.  And, obviously, the other player, who has a counter, knows this.  But if it's somewhat close, then it's entirely possible that the player who is ahead may not actually realize this and buy that Duchy because they think they need to catch up. 

What then? 

I ask because I'm pretty sure there have been times where I've been guilty of doing such a thing, because I don't generally use point counters and can sometimes lose track of the non-Province buys. 

[Thisisnotasmile]

Well then the player with the point counter can either resign, or play on and try to turn it around. That has nothing to do with etiquette and isn't really an interesting question either =/

[Stoc]

People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.

Just yesterday, I had the following happen in a Colony game with KC and Mountebank.

So, this guy get's 5/2 and buys Mountebank on the first turn:
19:15 Stoc: hi, gl
19:15 Player2: hi
19:16 Stoc: ugh
19:16 Player2: yea
19:16 Player2: turn 1 kill
19:16 Stoc: I wish that box for same starting hands worked in automatch
19:16 Player2: yup

Then, I get my KC before him:
19:18 Player2: that was pretty ulcky
19:18 Stoc: yeah, guess it works both ways
19:18 Stoc: really the more I play, the more games I see decided by luck. Unless there's major skill dif

Then, the next shuffle, I draw my KC and Mountebank together:
19:20 Stoc: for example...
19:21 Player2 has returned to the lobby. (resigned)


I also had another guy berate me on my "totally undeserved win" due to the fact I had pulled Ambassador out of the Black Market before he rage quit.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110625-164457-2ada0f08.html

[quartz]

As a new player both on isotropic and as someone who's learned how to play this game only 2 weeks ago, this website makes me want to never play again.

1. Playing with someone around 20 levels below you who says they're learning and then making fun of them for losing is not cool. Making fun of anyone for losing isn't cool.

2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

3. When they ask questions because they're unfamiliar with the interface or with some special cards, replying with "get f***ed" is not cool either.

This game seems like a fun game, but the rudeness just makes me want to quit. Why would anyone want to make the experience horrible for new players? What's the point of that?

[rrenaud]

I don't think that any of the posters here encourage either being assholes to new players who don't understand the interface or making fun of players for losing. 

I am one of the minority players who only says gg after actually good games, but saying gg isn't intended to antagonize in any case.

Personally, I encourage you to simply say that you've lost and leave the game in resignation if you are in a hopeless situation (opp possesses you 6x is likely to qualify).

[rls22]

Sounds like you have had some not great experiences, quartz.  I do think they're a pretty rare occurrence on isotropic, though.  I've only had two flat out rude people, and they were both fairly early on after I started playing (one person mocked me for losing, the other called me a f*ggot after I won). 

On the "gg" after a trouncing thing...  I don't know.  As folks have said above in this thread, "gg" is basically the equivalent of "goodbye" on isotropic.  If it was truly a good game, people will usually make some extra comment about it (e.g., "well played").  So, I wouldn't be too offended by it.  Besides, from the winning player's perspective, what are they supposed to say instead of gg?  Occasionally (very occasionally), I've said something like "sorry that was so ugly", if my strategy was particularly attack-heavy or something.  But, since tone is lost in text, it's pretty tough to say anything else without sounding like you're gloating. 

[Kuildeous]

2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

I just never take "gg" literally. I know it means "good game," but it's so overused that I don't even take it to mean that. As others have stated, it's a standard closing message nowadays.

I personally hate "gg." I won't begrudge someone for using it, but I don't ever take it literally. For that reason, I never use it myself. I'll say anything else but "gg." If it was a tight match, I'll say, "That was a close one." If I got skunked, I'll say, "Nicely played." 

As for the other points, you described some first-class dickery there. I wouldn't want to play with those people either. Fortunately, I think those people are in the minority on Isotropic.

I just got back on Isotropic after a hiatus. I played a couple of games with pleasant enjoyable opponents. It felt good, though I did accidentally make myself to be the jerk because I forgot how to view VP chips and the point tracker was disabled. One opponent got his Goons engine going before I could get mine, so I overcompensated when my engine finally took off. He pointed out that I could have ended the game with a sure victory way earlier. I didn't catch the final score, but I'm sure he was right.

So, sorry, I ended up being "that" guy. I brushed up on my Isotropic FAQ so I won't do that again.

Edit: Holy crap! I just looked at Council Room and saw that I won that game 57 to 20 to 13. I really need to focus on counting points. It's one thing to lose a game because I haven't been paying attention, but now I can see why my opponent was miffed at how long I dragged the game out. 

[quartz]

Thanks for your responses guys. It's nice to hear that these aren't "normal" situations on isotropic.

Personally, I encourage you to simply say that you've lost and leave the game in resignation if you are in a hopeless situation (opp possesses you 6x is likely to qualify).

I found this feature to be great and one of the main reasons I chose isotropic over brettspielwelt. Most of the time I like watching how a good player plays and what they're buying, etc. It's a good way to learn I think. I know that learning means I'll be losing a lot. I just don't like some people acting like they were never noobs at anything =( I guess reaction to "gg" is reaction to negative experiences in general.

[dmk]

As a new player both on isotropic and as someone who's learned how to play this game only 2 weeks ago, this website makes me want to never play again.

1. Playing with someone around 20 levels below you who says they're learning and then making fun of them for losing is not cool. Making fun of anyone for losing isn't cool.

2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

3. When they ask questions because they're unfamiliar with the interface or with some special cards, replying with "get f***ed" is not cool either.

This game seems like a fun game, but the rudeness just makes me want to quit. Why would anyone want to make the experience horrible for new players? What's the point of that?

1) i believe those types of people are in the minority from the little i've played so far
2) gg is kind of just a habit that ppl type out. in a lot of games its considered bad manners to *not* say gg after a game. so don't take those personally
3) again, see 1

i'm still learning the newest 3 sets, i only own base/intrigue/seaside live. so i bias selection toward those 3 sets and when the game starts i usually say that i'm somewhat unfamiliar with some cards and i'll take a little longer on my turns. usually its met with a "no problem" and we're on our way.

i hope that the experience you described doesn't happen often - i don't think its the norm

i trust that if you find someone that regularly posts here and asked them for a game/assistance w/ some cards as you went, they'd be more than happy to do so

[Personman]

Quartz, if you want some games that are guaranteed to be free of that kind of unpleasantness, keep an eye out for any of the Isotropic names you see on this forum -- I'm sure we'd all be glad to play a couple civil games with you, and we're probably more likely than average to be willing to discuss the game during/after if that's something you're interested in.

[ImperialStout]

Just to add to the "gg is not gloating" point, the first gaming I ever did was tournament and club chess, where not shaking your opponent's hand after a game (be it a hard fought stalemate or a forced mate in the opening) is akin to spitting in your opponent's eye.  For me, saying gg is the analog to the chess handshake, and it feels unnatural not to type it regardless of how the game actually went.

[Big Cheesesteak]

My isotropic experience has been mostly positive, with a few notable exceptions. I have had a couple of (low ranked) opponents accuse of cheating while in the midst of stomping them. I suppose this was because their understanding of the game hadn't progressed to the point where they would see that deck thinning combined with aggressive buying of draw chain cards and control of the shuffle makes it extremely unlikely that you could _fail_ to draw your deck every turn. If they had been reasonable and stuck around I could have maybe explained this to them, but they rage quit without giving me the opportunity.

I don't mind a little soft whining about luck, but I did have one opponent, who is ranked high enough to know better, tell me my deck sucked and that they knew more about Dominion than I do and that I was getting insanely lucky. That last part might have been true, but last I checked I was still ranked 7 levels higher than that person. So again, fine, point out that I'm getting lucky ...it happens. Try not to be a jerk though.

Every time I get the urge to copy and paste the chat logs to create a wall of shame post, I take a deep breath and remember that everyone has bad days, it's just a game, time to move on.

I do wish there was a private ban button, or the like, so that I could have an easier time keeping track of the few people I want to avoid. Just something that would flag them so I don't get automatched with them, or maybe automatically rejects all game proposals, or even just puts a visual cue next to their name so that I can remember that this person was once a serious jerk to me.

[Davio]

Who's out of line, me (Davio) or Liver? You decide...

I'll copy the head of the game log to show what kind of game it was.

Davio wins!
All but one player has resigned.

cards in supply: Bank, Colony, Farming Village, Hoard, Lookout, Market, Mine, Minion, Platinum, Saboteur, Torturer, and Warehouse
Default card selection was used.
----------------------

#1 Davio: 71 points (7 Colonies and an Estate); 23 turns
       opening: nothing / Torturer
       [27 cards] 5 Farming Villages, 4 Markets, 3 Torturers, 1 Bank, 1 Lookout, 3 Coppers, 1 Gold, 1 Platinum, 1 Estate, 7 Colonies

#2 liver: resigned (1st); 23 turns
       opening: Silver / Farming Village
       [36 cards] 5 Farming Villages, 3 Markets, 2 Banks, 1 Lookout, 1 Torturer, 6 Coppers, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Platinum, 7 Estates, 8 Curses

21:51 Davio: gl

--> I was lucky enough to open 5/2 and buy a Torturer straight away to start menacing. I don't like to be hassled myself and if I feel the game balance has already shifted too much in my opponent's favor, I usually just resign and say GG, no need to drag it along for both of us. A lot of games between similar skilled opponents are just shuffle luck races...

21:52 liver: big fan of the curse, huh
21:53 liver: i'll just gain all the curses
21:53 liver: and trash em
21:53 liver: big waste of both our time
21:56 liver: such a stupid strategy
21:56 Davio: you play yours, i play mine

--> I thought replying would only add fuel to the fire, but I couldn't resist, I tried to be somewhat courteous.

21:56 liver: problem is, yours annoys people
21:57 liver: for no reason
21:57 Davio: not really
21:57 liver: there, now we can play --> Curses are gone
21:59 liver: tough choice
21:59 liver: give me a second to decide
22:00 Davio: well, i play it for the card draw
22:00 Davio: i don't care that the curses have run out

--> Trying to explain myself, don't know why. It's a shame you still have to press "Gain a Curse in hand" when you are tortured and all Curses are gone, but I guess in some rare cases (Library) you would still willingly discard 2 cards

22:00 liver: u've been annoying for 10 mins
22:00 liver: i'll be annoying now
22:01 Davio: go ahead
22:01 liver: oh i am

--> Now he starts stalling every turn; I just wait and try to finish the game.

22:03 liver: boy, so many fun options
22:04 liver: fucken shit dude
22:04 liver: do me a favor and resign -->
22:04 Davio: i'll just buy all the colonies
22:05 liver: i'm letting you win, to prove i dont give a shit
22:05 liver: i play the game cuz its fun --> ORLY?
22:05 liver: so when douchebags play it annoying
22:05 liver: shows me how gay you are
22:09 liver: dont ever play me again. idiot.
22:10 Davio: don't worry --> Won't happen anytime soon
22:10 liver has returned to the lobby. --> He finally resigns


I'm sure I have been somewhat rude many times and I often just feel ashamed afterwards, but never like this.

How about a blacklist on Isotropic?

I also very much support the "Identical Starting Hands in AutoMatch" option.

[quartz]

I don't mind a little soft whining about luck, but I did have one opponent, who is ranked high enough to know better, tell me my deck sucked and that they knew more about Dominion than I do and that I was getting insanely lucky. That last part might have been true, but last I checked I was still ranked 7 levels higher than that person. So again, fine, point out that I'm getting lucky ...it happens. Try not to be a jerk though.

Whining about luck... yeah luck is a big part of this game. But I've now had about 3 opponents who're clearly winning and I get one lucky draw where I make them discard and they start whining in chat and stuff. One's winning and complaining that even though I have 10 curses and can't do anything for turns and I get *one* lucky turn. Pointing out that I'm "getting lucky" when they're crushing me completely... what can I say.

I only wish I could find people to play with me in RL because, as much as this game looks interesting, I have to give it up because getting trolled by your opponents is just not my idea of "hf". Even if they're minority on the site, it's upsetting enough to just not bother. Maybe if the site had some sort of a blacklist option then it would work better.

=(

[WanderingWinder]

I will note that I've noticed an uptick in cursing recently. This bugs me because I'd like to think that this game is family-friendly, but 2% of the people clearly make the site not :/

[Eagle]

2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

That one gets to me too...  If I get totally smashed by someone, and then get a "gg", that's just offensive.  A good game is one where each (or at least two) players had a chance.

If I beat someone that badly, To try and maintain a friendly environment, I'll tell them something like "thanks for the game", instead of trying to rub it in by pretending it was "good".   Even though my opponent is probably cursing at me from behind their screen.  (Unless my opponent is acting like a jerk about it, then I have no problem giving him a "gg" after beating him 90 to 4)

As for being a new player, there are a lot of people on here who are very polite and helpful.  They've taught me a lot.  i try to return the favor when I get matched with someone new and be as helpful and patient as possible.

[WanderingWinder]

Eh, but I've played some games that were blowouts pointwise like that, but totally up in the air until the last turn or two (usually from a big combo)

[Eagle]

Eh, but I've played some games that were blowouts pointwise like that, but totally up in the air until the last turn or two (usually from a big combo)

In games like that I'd say both players had a chance

[Taco Lobster]

I've got no problem taking my lumps, and if I lose -4 to 30, I'm not offended by someone saying gg.  If I'm the one giving the beatdown, I might wait for my opponent to say gg first.  Usually, they're out of the room before I can say gg anyway, so it's a moot point.  I do my best to say gg when I lose -4 to 30, but it can be hard - particularly if you spend most of the game under a ghost ship pin or on the receiving end of a torturer chain.

[Nitsuj]

I'm not sure how you guys even have time to get a "GG" in.  A lot of players I play with just bail from the game almost immediately.

I try to type out my messages, instead of using the abbreviations - especially the initial greeting and a "good game" or "close one!" or a "thanks for the game" depending on if it was indeed a good game, indeed a close one, or indeed a blowout where they took a lot of punches but carried on to the end.

But usually, while I'm typing - they are going back to the lobby!  So, I hope they don't think I'm rude and ignoring them!

Yesterday, I did my typical greeting "Good luck, have fun" - and proceeded to play against someone and got a lucky "Possession" early, and proceeded to dominate him with it.  Everytime I possessed him, he had his possession in hand!  So, then he started chatting in a foreign language (I think it was Italian) and eventually quit.  I have no idea what he was saying, and BabelFish wasn't much good for translating it.